Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:09 pm

KarenButtenbaum wrote:
TheProdigal wrote:
In a general sense, what would be considered major C&F issues, and what would be minor (or major but workable)?


This is such a hard question to answer in general terms, but I would say that this is the spectrum from minor to major:
getting caught smoking pot
Growing lots of pot
dealing pot
dealing lots of drugs
running a meth lab

After smoking pot it quickly starts to become a concerning matter.

Hope that helps!
KB


To be fair, the majority aren't about pot. They are minor things involving alcohol on campus, etc.

The bad news most likely starts when there starts to be a trend is disruptive behavior. For example, they are a lot of students walking around law schools with a single DUI. There probably are not very many with 2.

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:35 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
KarenButtenbaum wrote:
TheProdigal wrote:
In a general sense, what would be considered major C&F issues, and what would be minor (or major but workable)?


This is such a hard question to answer in general terms, but I would say that this is the spectrum from minor to major:
getting caught smoking pot
Growing lots of pot
dealing pot
dealing lots of drugs
running a meth lab

After smoking pot it quickly starts to become a concerning matter.

Hope that helps!
KB


To be fair, the majority aren't about pot. They are minor things involving alcohol on campus, etc.

The bad news most likely starts when there starts to be a trend is disruptive behavior. For example, they are a lot of students walking around law schools with a single DUI. There probably are not very many with 2.


Agree - a pattern of behavior is worse than a single offense. Pot is just an example.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:47 pm

Thanks to everyone who took our survey. Here is why you gentlemen and ladies select which law school to attend:

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/how-do ... to-attend/

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lawschool1741
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby lawschool1741 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:21 pm

My apologies if this has been previously discussed, but will a school really revoke a scholarship offer for an applicant who deposits at multiple schools?

In one of the offers I've received recently there is some pretty strong language to this effect but I have also seen several threads about the scholly negotiation process and the necessity of multiple deposits to this end. Additionally, many of Mike's comments center around the power the applicant has once admitted (ball in their court), etc.

MennetoC
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MennetoC » Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:48 pm

I am a pretty big reverse splitter (164/4.01), and I have been wait listed at a lot of schools (Penn, Cornell, Chicago, Northwestern, UCLA and Michigan). As I approach dates where I need to make decisions, or lose scholarships to lower schools I have gotten into, I'm wondering what the chances are of coming off wait lists. In other words, is not accepting anything and praying on coming off a waitlist an option?

supersplittysplitter
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby supersplittysplitter » Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:11 pm

I have a question about the timeline for negotiating. I've read Dean Spivey say before that "patience is a virtue" when it comes to negotiating scholarships and that schools hate it when you start negotiating too early in the cycle. However, many schools give deadlines of early- mid April to accept a scholarship. So realistically, should we have all our negotiations complete by the end of March? I know it's difficult to put a hard date on these things but I just want to get a sense of when to start negotiating, and how long the process will take because I feel these next 5 weeks are going to go extremely fast :shock:

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:55 pm

MennetoC wrote:I am a pretty big reverse splitter (164/4.01), and I have been wait listed at a lot of schools (Penn, Cornell, Chicago, Northwestern, UCLA and Michigan). As I approach dates where I need to make decisions, or lose scholarships to lower schools I have gotten into, I'm wondering what the chances are of coming off wait lists. In other words, is not accepting anything and praying on coming off a waitlist an option?


It is always wise to have alternate plans. You can stay on WL while deposited elsewhere, so I would pick your next best place and deposit as close to the deadline as possible if you want to go to law school this year.
You may get in off the WL but there are of course no guarantees - and it's so hard to answer such a specific case in this forum.

Cheers,KB

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby PeanutsNJam » Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:06 am

MennetoC wrote:I am a pretty big reverse splitter (164/4.01), and I have been wait listed at a lot of schools (Penn, Cornell, Chicago, Northwestern, UCLA and Michigan). As I approach dates where I need to make decisions, or lose scholarships to lower schools I have gotten into, I'm wondering what the chances are of coming off wait lists. In other words, is not accepting anything and praying on coming off a waitlist an option?


Wow dude that sucks I'd have though you'd be in at Cornell and UCLA for sure, with a very good chance at Michigan. If anything though I think you have a better chance at getting off the WL at those schools than most, but I'm not Spivey so don't listen to me.

Also, I think Cornell and UCLA might be YP you. I'd definitely write a LOCI, and make it pretty.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:50 am

PeanutsNJam wrote:
MennetoC wrote:I am a pretty big reverse splitter (164/4.01), and I have been wait listed at a lot of schools (Penn, Cornell, Chicago, Northwestern, UCLA and Michigan). As I approach dates where I need to make decisions, or lose scholarships to lower schools I have gotten into, I'm wondering what the chances are of coming off wait lists. In other words, is not accepting anything and praying on coming off a waitlist an option?


Wow dude that sucks I'd have though you'd be in at Cornell and UCLA for sure, with a very good chance at Michigan. If anything though I think you have a better chance at getting off the WL at those schools than most, but I'm not Spivey so don't listen to me.

Also, I think Cornell and UCLA might be YP you. I'd definitely write a LOCI, and make it pretty.


>Cornell might YP someone with a 164

yeah ok

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:11 am

PeanutsNJam wrote:
MennetoC wrote:I am a pretty big reverse splitter (164/4.01), and I have been wait listed at a lot of schools (Penn, Cornell, Chicago, Northwestern, UCLA and Michigan). As I approach dates where I need to make decisions, or lose scholarships to lower schools I have gotten into, I'm wondering what the chances are of coming off wait lists. In other words, is not accepting anything and praying on coming off a waitlist an option?


Wow dude that sucks I'd have though you'd be in at Cornell and UCLA for sure, with a very good chance at Michigan. If anything though I think you have a better chance at getting off the WL at those schools than most, but I'm not Spivey so don't listen to me.

Also, I think Cornell and UCLA might be YP you. I'd definitely write a LOCI, and make it pretty.


Yield protection (as you all know) occurs when you believe that if admitted, the odds are very slim the applicant will go to your school, often because they will likely have a number of higher ranked offers. I don't believe that would have been the thinking here, but much more likely "lets see how our lsat is looking first before we make a decision on someone 3 points below our median and 2 points below our 25th.

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Gray
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby Gray » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:44 pm

Hey Spivey et al.! I'm held at NU and writing optional responses - they ask this question:
1: If you could instantly change any current U.S. law or policy, which would it be and what would you change?


I wrote an (unpublished) paper in UG that is the basis for my answer to this question. Do I cite sources, or no? It would seem odd to NOT cite sources when claiming 'X has been shown to cause Y' - but it would also seem weird to have citations in an optional response. Obviously the bulk of the answer is an opinion but it has to be framed by some facts, so I'm not sure what to do here.

TYIA!

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:51 pm

lawschool1741 wrote:My apologies if this has been previously discussed, but will a school really revoke a scholarship offer for an applicant who deposits at multiple schools?

In one of the offers I've received recently there is some pretty strong language to this effect but I have also seen several threads about the scholly negotiation process and the necessity of multiple deposits to this end. Additionally, many of Mike's comments center around the power the applicant has once admitted (ball in their court), etc.


I've never seen it done. This is a relatively new phenomena as schools try to get a handle on scholarship negotiation and reliable data for WL admitting. Those needs I certainly understand, but the limiting of decision-making options I am not a big fan of at all and I think defeats what a lot of legal educators claim is one of the pillars of education (affordable, accessible education).

All of this said, I have yet to see a school actually do it. I have seen soft nudges to withdraw and more aggressive nudges, but I personally have not seen an actual forced withdrawal. generally if you politely ask for a few extra weeks I think it would be highly likely you would get them.

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby PeanutsNJam » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:01 am

Mack.Hambleton wrote:>Cornell might YP someone with a 164

yeah ok


4.01 GPA... I mean Cornell would YP a 3.3/175 right? Same thing.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:03 am

PeanutsNJam wrote:
Mack.Hambleton wrote:>Cornell might YP someone with a 164

yeah ok


4.01 GPA... I mean Cornell would YP a 3.3/175 right? Same thing.


It really isn't. LSAT scores above your schools 75% are a significantly more scarce commodity than GPA, not to mention they weigh more in USNWR rankings and generally correlate higher with first year performance.

I'm not saying any of those should be good reasons to mean more, but they all are.
Last edited by MikeSpivey on Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rigo
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby Rigo » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:06 pm

LOL @ Cornell YP'ing 164's.

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RareExports
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby RareExports » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:41 pm

Hi! Do you have any opinions regarding the apparent crackdown on scholarship negotiation which is evidenced by a) specific, enforced clauses in scholarship offers forbidding double depositing and b) delays in releasing scholarship information? Of course, I could be wrong about this, but it seems like schools are taking actions to limit negotiation.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:35 am

supersplittysplitter wrote:I have a question about the timeline for negotiating. I've read Dean Spivey say before that "patience is a virtue" when it comes to negotiating scholarships and that schools hate it when you start negotiating too early in the cycle. However, many schools give deadlines of early- mid April to accept a scholarship. So realistically, should we have all our negotiations complete by the end of March? I know it's difficult to put a hard date on these things but I just want to get a sense of when to start negotiating, and how long the process will take because I feel these next 5 weeks are going to go extremely fast :shock:


Well , most importantly you don't want to be pushy or first to do it. By now people have started so you won't be first. If you have other offers that you are happy with and that are leveregable I say go for it.

sandwhich
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby sandwhich » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:24 am

Mike,

For transfer students, when considering the law school the applicant is coming from, what rankings do the adcoms typically consider? USNWR? Their own personal knowledge? Some combination?

Thank you.

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:24 pm

sandwhich wrote:Mike,

For transfer students, when considering the law school the applicant is coming from, what rankings do the adcoms typically consider? USNWR? Their own personal knowledge? Some combination?

Thank you.


USNWR is the go-to ranking for most people, I would say. But personal knowledge and other information will be considered when evaluating the rigor and quality of the first year curriculum.

sandwhich
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby sandwhich » Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:43 pm

KarenButtenbaum wrote:
sandwhich wrote:Mike,

For transfer students, when considering the law school the applicant is coming from, what rankings do the adcoms typically consider? USNWR? Their own personal knowledge? Some combination?

Thank you.


USNWR is the go-to ranking for most people, I would say. But personal knowledge and other information will be considered when evaluating the rigor and quality of the first year curriculum.


Thank you for your reply. That somewhat reduces my anxiety about the upcoming rankings release.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:11 pm

6778628 wrote:Hi! Do you have any opinions regarding the apparent crackdown on scholarship negotiation which is evidenced by a) specific, enforced clauses in scholarship offers forbidding double depositing and b) delays in releasing scholarship information? Of course, I could be wrong about this, but it seems like schools are taking actions to limit negotiation.



I have lots of them!

Schools are desperately (and I use this word intentionally) and understandably looking for ways to control the scholarship arms race. And it is indeed an arms race, there is no other way to describe it. If UVa is giving out huge amounts, their competition for the same admits has to at least come close, or they are going to lose the admissions cycle. You all should never forget this because this is where the real leverage is.

So, without colluding they need to work within LSAC Good Standards to at least try to reign in some of the race. One way would be to offer money later, and use the April deadlines for double deposits as a way to reduce the negotiation period. But, unless they all give money on day x and have deposits on day y, there is time to negotiate. Timing is pretty critical really, because you don't want to ask too early (we are already past that) or too late.

Or, to quote Magneto in X-men Last Stand, "they have their tricks and we have ours!" which I think sums this up pretty nicely.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:21 pm

This link may be helpful in respect to some of the scholarship negotiation questions that have come up.

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/the-mu ... ot-happen/

keosu11
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby keosu11 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:49 pm

Mike please correct me if I am wrong, but schools only see who you have deposited at not when you deposit?

If I deposited at school A, but then School B gave me a scholarship I couldn't turn down and it had specific language that said I must withdraw and cannot double deposit at another school. I could withdraw from school A, prior to depositing at school B. Would I still show up in the May 15 reports as having deposited at multiple schools?

If that is the case, schools are opening a huge can of worms with that specific language.

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:05 am

keosu11 wrote:Mike please correct me if I am wrong, but schools only see who you have deposited at not when you deposit?

If I deposited at school A, but then School B gave me a scholarship I couldn't turn down and it had specific language that said I must withdraw and cannot double deposit at another school. I could withdraw from school A, prior to depositing at school B. Would I still show up in the May 15 reports as having deposited at multiple schools?

If that is the case, schools are opening a huge can of worms with that specific language.


The report does not show the date of your deposit (unless it has changed this year, but I highly doubt this would be the case).
Keep in mind that the reports are only as good as the data that is shared by the law schools. Meaning that the schools need to participate in the report (not all do) and they need to update the information. For example, Princeton Law School needs to release the information to LSAC and needs to update the information regularly. Some update daily, others monthly, some just give information sporadically. The date of the last update is included in the report, so the schools will see if the information is stale or not.

Cheers,
KB

dlj4292
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby dlj4292 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:23 pm

Hi! Posted this in another forum but wanted to post here, too. Is taking June LSAT in hopes of a higher score is a viable way to receive increased merit aid from schools that have already offered me a scholarship? Thanks!


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