Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

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appind
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby appind » Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:42 pm

^To clarify, only one sentence reads awkward and ungrammatical due to missing word but is understandable in intent. Other changes are just improvements since the submission not real issues and assume it is for H. Is it still worth drawing attention to with all changes and would they swap? Thanks.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:51 pm

appind wrote:^To clarify, only one sentence reads awkward and ungrammatical due to missing word but is understandable in intent. Other changes are just improvements since the submission not real issues and assume it is for H. Is it still worth drawing attention to with all changes and would they swap? Thanks.


Yep, I get this. I would re-submit. It's not like the Dean of Admissions is making the file change anyway, so I would far from consider the risk of "drawing attention" the former version as outweighing the positives of replacing with a better version.

2654815451
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby 2654815451 » Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:04 pm

Today I was stopped on my lunch break by an attorney and offered a part-time position helping with property abstracts. He said I can do it at any time and would not take away from my full-time job for the District Attorney.

I've already submitted my applications in for the law schools I applied to for the fall. Should I include this additional work experience by submitting a new resume, or should I use this new information for loci in case waitlisted, which I have a feeling will happen.

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santoki
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Post removed.

Postby santoki » Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:58 pm

Post removed.
Last edited by santoki on Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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appind
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby appind » Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:52 pm

Is it true they replace or swap and not just add new statement to the old one during file change? For harvard some have posted different experience imo. Tia.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:07 pm

appind wrote:Is it true they replace or swap and not just add new statement to the old one during file change? For harvard some have posted different experience imo. Tia.


Honest question. Am I somehow not being clear enough?

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lawschool1741
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby lawschool1741 » Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:20 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
appind wrote:Is it true they replace or swap and not just add new statement to the old one during file change? For harvard some have posted different experience imo. Tia.


Honest question. Am I somehow not being clear enough?

To me, it seems you are clear in that an update should not have a detrimental effect due to a non-important-person updating the file. (S)he might be trying to get overly specific in knowing that the original does not remain in the file along with the update.

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:26 pm

appind wrote:Is it true they replace or swap and not just add new statement to the old one during file change? For harvard some have posted different experience imo. Tia.


Regardless of the administrative procedures within the office, you should submit the updated PS.

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DetroitRed
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby DetroitRed » Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:39 pm

santoki wrote:with all this fuss about higher scores, applicants, and # of test takers being down, it seems as if schools are still sticking to their guns. i havent seen people that normally wouldnt get into a school stretch their luck and get in.

this is of course from what i can see on this forum and LSN. have you seen anything different on your consultant end, sir spivey?


The cycle is still relatively young. Also, you probably won't see that much desperation out of the T14 (or at least the upper half).

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Rigo
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby Rigo » Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:42 pm

When do you guys normally take on clients for the upcoming cycle?
Say an applicant has an LSAT score and wants to hire you guys for application consulting and intends on an early September submission...is July cool? What is your preferred timeline?

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:56 pm

Dirigo wrote:When do you guys normally take on clients for the upcoming cycle?
Say an applicant has an LSAT score and wants to hire you guys for application consulting and intends on an early September submission...is July cool? What is your preferred timeline?



There's probably no rush but as an interesting aside a few clients already have completed essays. But yep, April, May, June or July all make sense.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:58 pm

DetroitRed wrote:
santoki wrote:with all this fuss about higher scores, applicants, and # of test takers being down, it seems as if schools are still sticking to their guns. i havent seen people that normally wouldnt get into a school stretch their luck and get in.

this is of course from what i can see on this forum and LSN. have you seen anything different on your consultant end, sir spivey?


The cycle is still relatively young. Also, you probably won't see that much desperation out of the T14 (or at least the upper half).



The slippage will happen for some schools, but I doubt we will see that at the top until feb and then with progression moving into March and beyond.

omegaweapon
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby omegaweapon » Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:50 am

MikeSpivey wrote:
appind wrote:^To clarify, only one sentence reads awkward and ungrammatical due to missing word but is understandable in intent. Other changes are just improvements since the submission not real issues and assume it is for H. Is it still worth drawing attention to with all changes and would they swap? Thanks.


Yep, I get this. I would re-submit. It's not like the Dean of Admissions is making the file change anyway, so I would far from consider the risk of "drawing attention" the former version as outweighing the positives of replacing with a better version.


Do you think this is true even if you submitted quite a while ago, and are expecting a decision soon? I noticed a word duplicated in my PS, (think "this is is the situation") but had my JS1 a little over a month ago, and am in the faculty review stage. Would it make any difference positive or negative at this point?

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:03 pm

omegaweapon wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
appind wrote:^To clarify, only one sentence reads awkward and ungrammatical due to missing word but is understandable in intent. Other changes are just improvements since the submission not real issues and assume it is for H. Is it still worth drawing attention to with all changes and would they swap? Thanks.


Yep, I get this. I would re-submit. It's not like the Dean of Admissions is making the file change anyway, so I would far from consider the risk of "drawing attention" the former version as outweighing the positives of replacing with a better version.


Do you think this is true even if you submitted quite a while ago, and are expecting a decision soon? I noticed a word duplicated in my PS, (think "this is is the situation") but had my JS1 a little over a month ago, and am in the faculty review stage. Would it make any difference positive or negative at this point?


While every scenario is slightly different, the general advice is that it is if you notice a mistake on anything in your application, it is not going to hurt your application to send in a corrected PS.
Always use your own good judgment, but our advice is pretty universally to own up to mistakes and take corrective action.

Cheers,
Karen

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:08 pm

KarenButtenbaum wrote:
omegaweapon wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
appind wrote:^To clarify, only one sentence reads awkward and ungrammatical due to missing word but is understandable in intent. Other changes are just improvements since the submission not real issues and assume it is for H. Is it still worth drawing attention to with all changes and would they swap? Thanks.


Yep, I get this. I would re-submit. It's not like the Dean of Admissions is making the file change anyway, so I would far from consider the risk of "drawing attention" the former version as outweighing the positives of replacing with a better version.


Do you think this is true even if you submitted quite a while ago, and are expecting a decision soon? I noticed a word duplicated in my PS, (think "this is is the situation") but had my JS1 a little over a month ago, and am in the faculty review stage. Would it make any difference positive or negative at this point?


While every scenario is slightly different, the general advice is that it is if you notice a mistake on anything in your application, it is not going to hurt your application to send in a corrected PS.
Always use your own good judgment, but our advice is pretty universally to own up to mistakes and take corrective action.

Cheers,
Karen


I promise I wouldn't be surprised if there were a PM chain going around saying "Man, Spivey seems pretty grouchy about this topic, let's keep asking him a series of more hyper specific scenarios until he cracks live and in color"...which would be pretty awesome.

I apologize if I came across that way in my last post. I'll add my 2 cents to Karen's answer as well. In the corporate world there is a simple but rarely practiced dictum about mistakes.

1. Admit to them
2. Fix them
3. Move past them

The great irony is that the people who do this almost always are the ones fast-tracking to the top, but so few people seem capable of it in the work world. So in almost every scenario, if you know you made a mistake on the application, I would amend. Even if you run the small risk of calling attention to a mistake they would not have noticed, it's worth it to fix. And it is a good habit to get into doing, at least in IMO.

-Mike

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:11 pm

I never once saw a "my LSAT below your median actually is predictive of my success" addendum, so I figured I write one for kicks and giggles:

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/a-neve ... -addendum/

Enjoy the silliness or feel free to pile on at the absurdity!

MaxinCoolin
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MaxinCoolin » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:25 am

Hey Spivey Consulting. Appreciate any feedback in advance.

1. Just applied. Seems like not a whole lot of acceptances have come out. Is it relatively ok to have applied this late in the cycle? I have a 170+ LSAT score.

2. I have two very minor C&F issues. One was juvenile related and sealed and the other was campus dorm related. Will these two things be a deterrent to get into some schools?

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby PeanutsNJam » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:09 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:Here you all go. Cliff notes: early = still emphasis on high LSAT, mid/late = flip=floppery

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/applic ... his-cycle/


This is of great concern to me, and I'd like to know how certain you are about this.

I'm a high LSAT splitter whose apps went out Dec 12, most of which are complete by now. I'm assuming I'm mid/late. That said, of the 12 schools I've applied to, I've only heard back from 1. Of the few that I'm status-checking, I'm not even UR. Is it because they file low GPAs to the bottom of the pile or they reserve hardcore splitters to be reviewed later?

What are the odds you're wrong, and high LSATs maintain their strength throughout the rest of the cycle?

I mean, your logic makes sense - if medians are more or less set in stone late in the cycle, then there's no incentive to reach for higher LSAT scores. But:

1.) are medians actually set in stone pre-deposits?

2.) doesn't this also apply for low GPAs?

Are you saying that later in the cycle, law schools are more concerned with your projected success and less with your impact on their medians?

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Auxilio
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby Auxilio » Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:23 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:Here you all go. Cliff notes: early = still emphasis on high LSAT, mid/late = flip=floppery

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/applic ... his-cycle/


This is of great concern to me, and I'd like to know how certain you are about this.

I'm a high LSAT splitter whose apps went out Dec 12, most of which are complete by now. I'm assuming I'm mid/late. That said, of the 12 schools I've applied to, I've only heard back from 1. Of the few that I'm status-checking, I'm not even UR. Is it because they file low GPAs to the bottom of the pile or they reserve hardcore splitters to be reviewed later?

What are the odds you're wrong, and high LSATs maintain their strength throughout the rest of the cycle?

I mean, your logic makes sense - if medians are more or less set in stone late in the cycle, then there's no incentive to reach for higher LSAT scores. But:

1.) are medians actually set in stone pre-deposits?

2.) doesn't this also apply for low GPAs?

Are you saying that later in the cycle, law schools are more concerned with your projected success and less with your impact on their medians?



I would not be worried about not getting much responses, I think as a general rule splitters tend to get looked at later, when the school has a better understanding of how much they need the LSAT/can take a hit on GPA.

nickhalden
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby nickhalden » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:12 pm

Hey Spivey! I would love your input on this admissions question.

Duke's PT program must put a burden on admissions staff to get a quality decision within such a short timeframe. In the Duke applicants thread, we supposed that the program must lead to higher matriculation rate for Duke to go through the burden. That led to the question - what affect does length of decision have on matriculation? That is, if rapidity leads to higher matriculation does a delay in decision (e.g. for Duke regular applicants) correlate with lower matriculation? In the same light, would Emory delaying all decisions until February hurt their matriculation rates in early applicants? If so, why does Emory delay?

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:22 pm

MaxinCoolin wrote:Hey Spivey Consulting. Appreciate any feedback in advance.

1. Just applied. Seems like not a whole lot of acceptances have come out. Is it relatively ok to have applied this late in the cycle? I have a 170+ LSAT score.

2. I have two very minor C&F issues. One was juvenile related and sealed and the other was campus dorm related. Will these two things be a deterrent to get into some schools?


Timing matters less this cycle than in previous cycles mostly because applications are down, and in your case the number of 170+ LSATs are down. Most of the acceptances will come out in the coming weeks, so no to worry there.

youthful indiscretions on your C+F are usually not a deterrent at most schools - but it will depend on the facts and circumstances and how you explain it.

Cheers,
KB

MadwomanintheAttic
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MadwomanintheAttic » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:27 pm

First thanks so much for making this Q&A possible, it's been a huge help. I have one question: Given that late applications mean less this cycle than they have in the past considering the decrease in applicants, how does that play into the February LSAT? Early is always better, but provided an applicant makes a significant jump (8+ points) would that help to mitigate the late application? Any insight into how URM status or unique softs might also play into applying late? Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thank You.

nickhalden
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby nickhalden » Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:14 pm

nickhalden wrote:Hey Spivey! I would love your input on this admissions question.

Duke's PT program must put a burden on admissions staff to get a quality decision within such a short timeframe. In the Duke applicants thread, we supposed that the program must lead to higher matriculation rate for Duke to go through the burden. That led to the question - what affect does length of decision have on matriculation? That is, if rapidity leads to higher matriculation does a delay in decision (e.g. for Duke regular applicants) correlate with lower matriculation? In the same light, would Emory delaying all decisions until February hurt their matriculation rates in early applicants? If so, why does Emory delay?


Following up on this, what information does a law school have on an applicant before they submit? For example, when Duke makes a PT invite what information is available to them to target specific individuals?

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:25 pm

sorry to be slow to respond everyone! will get some answers to you soon!

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:58 pm

nickhalden wrote:
nickhalden wrote:Hey Spivey! I would love your input on this admissions question.

Duke's PT program must put a burden on admissions staff to get a quality decision within such a short timeframe. In the Duke applicants thread, we supposed that the program must lead to higher matriculation rate for Duke to go through the burden. That led to the question - what affect does length of decision have on matriculation? That is, if rapidity leads to higher matriculation does a delay in decision (e.g. for Duke regular applicants) correlate with lower matriculation? In the same light, would Emory delaying all decisions until February hurt their matriculation rates in early applicants? If so, why does Emory delay?


Following up on this, what information does a law school have on an applicant before they submit? For example, when Duke makes a PT invite what information is available to them to target specific individuals?


The PT does not necessarily put a huge a burden on the staff - it's just a reordering of who is read first. Besides, they do limit how many people get on the PT, so they have some control over it.
It is hard to measure exactly what influences applicant decisions, but a quick turnaround to admit your application is going to have a positive effect on how the applicant views the school. At its most basic level, the applicant will be happy with an admit and it will give them a good feeling about the school. You can't really compare PT to non-PT in this sense because the PT folks will likely have many other choices to make where, in theory, the non-PT folks will have fewer choices. There are other ways to embrace the students who are admitted at a later date and make them feel welcome and part of the community, so an early admit is not the only way to go.
A later admit is not necessarily a bad thing - especially if you know when it is coming. I can't tell you why a school would delay the decisions, but I don't think there is only one correct way to release decisions. An early decision is only one way in which you can improve yield - there are a million other ways to work on that.

Schools get a lot of information on applicants from the LSAC's CRS (Candidate Referral Service). Applicants can opt in or opt out of CRS. The most common demographics that are used are: LSAT/GPA, gender, ethnicity, undergraduate school, year of graduation, permanent state, region, etc.

Cheers,
KB


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