Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Special forum where professionals are encouraged to help law school applicants, students, and graduates.

Which would you prefer most?

Poll ended at Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:05 am

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:46 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
HorseThief wrote:
SnakySalmon wrote:Random fun question: If you gave someone ten billion dollars and told them they had a decade to create a law school that would crush YHS in the rankings, could they, or is age and the attached undergrad important enough that they would have an advantage despite your much larger endowment?

+1

I like the way you think


They couldn't, not IMO. Good question, I'm going to ask a few law schools deans that next time I see them.


Bounced this off of a few people. One is Scott Moss, whose bio is here:

http://lawweb.colorado.edu/profiles/profile.jsp?id=258

He and I talk about this kind of stuff when we get together. His response (with permission to print) is:

Mike, this is an outstandingly fun question. If I had $10 billion for the Colorado Law admissions committee I chair to recommend allocating, my first several goals wouldn’t be out-ranking Yale. My first goals would be to do much more awesome things, like endowing all of the following (i.e., banking enough for the standard 4% annual endowment payout to fully fund each): free tuition, plus a book and laptop allowance, for all (annual cost $25 million for a small school like Colorado Law, or $75m for a large school like Fordham); $10K public interest summer fellowships for everyone who wants one (about $5 million a year at a large school); building a far more elaborate one-on-one training clinical education program than any law school can afford now (e.g., at a large school, 100 lawyers, talented enough to have to be paid $150K each, supervising teams of only 2-3 students each, which if you include support staff could cost $20 million a year); and a restaurant-quality law school café at which meals and snacks are free with a student ID (about $10 million a year if students really pig out). For a large school, that gets me to about $110 million, which would cost about $3 billion to endow.

Wow, after spending $3b, I still have $7b left of the $10b; I guess $10b is kind of a lot. So, yeah, I guess I’d then go outrank Yale with the rest; here’s how. (1) Build your basic 50 faculty members by poaching the best faculty at every other school with half-million-dollar salaries; that would cost $30m/yr with benefits and support staff. (2) Add to the basic faculty roster a few superstars who would cost $1-2m/yr, like a retired Supreme Court justice, other superstar judges (like Posner if he is willing to retire when he sees a job posting for a $1m annual salary), and other luminaries, like Barack Obama as of January 2017 (he’d probably cost a few million a year); a dozen of those folks could run $20m/yr. (3) On top of the free tuition, a $50,000 stipend if you have elite credentials ­– either elite numbers (e.g., 3.8 GPA and mid-170s LSAT) or solid numbers plus awesome things about yourself that make us convinced you’re at least as promising as the folks with superstar numbers (e.g., major leadership roles and/or fantastic work experience), because to beat Yale’s medians, I need only half my class to have mid-170s LSAT, so the rest can be people with middling numbers whose experiences show awesome potential ($50K/yr for as many as 1500 students is $75 million/yr). (4) Locate in an awesome city and spend eight figures on kick-ass free housing for all your students, like buying a whole 1000-unit apartment building in Manhattan (about $1 billion to buy, then $20 million a year to maintain), and come to think of it, I would like a mini-mall of five-star restaurants on the ground floor at which students could eat free (about $50 million a year). Those four items cost $175m/yr, which requires $4.25b to endow, plus $1 bullion to buy the building, so that’s $5.25 for this stuff, plus $3 billion for the above items, which comes to $8.25 billion. I suppose I’d keep the remaining $1.75b in endowment in case anything else awesome comes to mind. Could I get a few hundred of the top law school prospects in the country to come with this kind of offer? Yeah, I think so. I forgot to add a gym with a pool, tennis courts, and a bowling alley, come to think of it.

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IgosduIkana
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby IgosduIkana » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:56 pm

^^ he forgot bottle service every night!!

But huh, fascinating idea and terrific answer!

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cron1834
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby cron1834 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:31 pm

Perhaps with the remaining $1.75b (lol) you could buy up a couple of the for-profits and shut them down. That or REALLY REALLY buy some school-funded jobs.

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HorseThief
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby HorseThief » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:02 am

So it's possible... okay, where can we find $10 billion to start TLS University?

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Black_Swan
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby Black_Swan » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:48 pm

HorseThief wrote:So it's possible... okay, where can we find $10 billion to start TLS University?

:mrgreen:
Requirements to get in?

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yomisterd
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby yomisterd » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:57 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
HorseThief wrote:
SnakySalmon wrote:Random fun question: If you gave someone ten billion dollars and told them they had a decade to create a law school that would crush YHS in the rankings, could they, or is age and the attached undergrad important enough that they would have an advantage despite your much larger endowment?

+1

I like the way you think


They couldn't, not IMO. Good question, I'm going to ask a few law schools deans that next time I see them.


Bounced this off of a few people. One is Scott Moss, whose bio is here:

http://lawweb.colorado.edu/profiles/profile.jsp?id=258

He and I talk about this kind of stuff when we get together. His response (with permission to print) is:

Mike, this is an outstandingly fun question. If I had $10 billion for the Colorado Law admissions committee I chair to recommend allocating, my first several goals wouldn’t be out-ranking Yale. My first goals would be to do much more awesome things, like endowing all of the following (i.e., banking enough for the standard 4% annual endowment payout to fully fund each): free tuition, plus a book and laptop allowance, for all (annual cost $25 million for a small school like Colorado Law, or $75m for a large school like Fordham); $10K public interest summer fellowships for everyone who wants one (about $5 million a year at a large school); building a far more elaborate one-on-one training clinical education program than any law school can afford now (e.g., at a large school, 100 lawyers, talented enough to have to be paid $150K each, supervising teams of only 2-3 students each, which if you include support staff could cost $20 million a year); and a restaurant-quality law school café at which meals and snacks are free with a student ID (about $10 million a year if students really pig out). For a large school, that gets me to about $110 million, which would cost about $3 billion to endow.

Wow, after spending $3b, I still have $7b left of the $10b; I guess $10b is kind of a lot. So, yeah, I guess I’d then go outrank Yale with the rest; here’s how. (1) Build your basic 50 faculty members by poaching the best faculty at every other school with half-million-dollar salaries; that would cost $30m/yr with benefits and support staff. (2) Add to the basic faculty roster a few superstars who would cost $1-2m/yr, like a retired Supreme Court justice, other superstar judges (like Posner if he is willing to retire when he sees a job posting for a $1m annual salary), and other luminaries, like Barack Obama as of January 2017 (he’d probably cost a few million a year); a dozen of those folks could run $20m/yr. (3) On top of the free tuition, a $50,000 stipend if you have elite credentials ­– either elite numbers (e.g., 3.8 GPA and mid-170s LSAT) or solid numbers plus awesome things about yourself that make us convinced you’re at least as promising as the folks with superstar numbers (e.g., major leadership roles and/or fantastic work experience), because to beat Yale’s medians, I need only half my class to have mid-170s LSAT, so the rest can be people with middling numbers whose experiences show awesome potential ($50K/yr for as many as 1500 students is $75 million/yr). (4) Locate in an awesome city and spend eight figures on kick-ass free housing for all your students, like buying a whole 1000-unit apartment building in Manhattan (about $1 billion to buy, then $20 million a year to maintain), and come to think of it, I would like a mini-mall of five-star restaurants on the ground floor at which students could eat free (about $50 million a year). Those four items cost $175m/yr, which requires $4.25b to endow, plus $1 bullion to buy the building, so that’s $5.25 for this stuff, plus $3 billion for the above items, which comes to $8.25 billion. I suppose I’d keep the remaining $1.75b in endowment in case anything else awesome comes to mind. Could I get a few hundred of the top law school prospects in the country to come with this kind of offer? Yeah, I think so. I forgot to add a gym with a pool, tennis courts, and a bowling alley, come to think of it.


Would go to this school in a heartbeat.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:59 pm

yomisterd wrote: Would go to this school in a heartbeat.


I want to be dean at this school.

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:03 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
yomisterd wrote: Would go to this school in a heartbeat.


I want to be dean at this school.


I want to be Santa Claus... Oprah (and you get free tuition! and you get free tuition!) Dean of Admissions at this law school!

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haus
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby haus » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:05 pm

KarenButtenbaum wrote:I want to be Santa Claus... Oprah (and you get free tuition! and you get free tuition!) Dean of Admissions at this law school!

:)

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Sgt Brody.
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby Sgt Brody. » Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:51 pm

Hey Mike and Karen,

You might have missed my question earlier, can we apply ed to UCLA, that is binding, and also apply ed to arizona state and university of arizona that is not binding. So, I know that I can only apply ed to one school, but how about a binding ed to only one school, and a non binding ed to two schools? Will UCLA immedietly find out through lsac that I have applied a non binding ed to two schools, and will that hurt my chances of admission? Thank for so much for your help, and I really appreciate your help here.

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redsox
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby redsox » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:32 am

KarenButtenbaum wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
yomisterd wrote: Would go to this school in a heartbeat.


I want to be dean at this school.


I want to be Santa Claus... Oprah (and you get free tuition! and you get free tuition!) Dean of Admissions at this law school!


I have to wonder how many students would actually take law seriously at this school though. I think you'd just see smart people with no interest in law take the LSAT, score 170+, and spend three years enjoying the free housing, $50,000, and all the other perks. You'd have the smartest, most accomplished class in history, but I'm not sure you'd actually produce many lawyers. If you remove the tuition and opportunity cost by handing people so much money, what keeps people bought in to the actual school aspect? The LSAT isn't nearly a big enough barrier to entry. Maybe you could run that sort of thing as a two year school, and accept only transfers...but I don't see how else it would work.

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redsox
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby redsox » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:43 am

Maybe you could structure the scholarship/stipend as a loan that is forgiven if either 1) 80% of the student's classmates are in jobs requiring a JD after 5 years or 2) the student is (regardless of the rest of the class) in a job requiring a JD after 5 years.

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:14 am

Sgt Brody. wrote:Hey Mike and Karen,

You might have missed my question earlier, can we apply ed to UCLA, that is binding, and also apply ed to arizona state and university of arizona that is not binding. So, I know that I can only apply ed to one school, but how about a binding ed to only one school, and a non binding ed to two schools? Will UCLA immedietly find out through lsac that I have applied a non binding ed to two schools, and will that hurt my chances of admission? Thank for so much for your help, and I really appreciate your help here.


You can absolutely apply to other schools non-binding while applying binding decision to UCLA (or any other school). You are not violating any agreement by applying to other schools - and they don't expect you to not apply to other schools - as long as it isn't binding.

It is unlikely that those schools share applicant data prior to making a decision (they could get in trouble for that).

Cheers,
KB

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:04 am

We will be tweeting some interesting news all day for those that missed our first 47 attempts at self promotion :-)

Teaser: WUSTL up to 18, (highest ever I think).

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haus
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby haus » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:17 am

MikeSpivey wrote:We will be tweeting some interesting news all day for those that missed our first 47 attempts at self promotion :-)

Teaser: WUSTL up to 18, (highest ever I think).

Maybe this will be the year that Florida Coastal School of Law makes it's big move... :)

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ParisetMoi
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby ParisetMoi » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:30 am

haus wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:We will be tweeting some interesting news all day for those that missed our first 47 attempts at self promotion :-)

Teaser: WUSTL up to 18, (highest ever I think).

Maybe this will be the year that Florida Coastal School of Law makes it's big move... :)


:lol:

pinkfireworks24
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby pinkfireworks24 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:25 pm

KarenButtenbaum wrote:
pinkfireworks24 wrote:I applied early January right after getting my LSAT score and have noticed that for some of the law schools, my status is still "application complete" and hasn't yet been reviewed by the admissions committee. Being that one of the law schools states that all decisions rendered after April 1st will be rejection or wait list ones, and its March 6th and they haven't even reviewed my file yet, I am worried. Is there anything I can/should do?

Thanks!


Not all schools use the status checker/update the same way, so it is entirely possible that they have reviewed your application without updating the status as part of the normal way of doing things.

If you do feel like things are moving too slow as compared to others who applied around the same time, you can always call and ask if that is normal, but chances are that all is well and you just have to be a little patient.



Ok, Thank you so much!!

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Sgt Brody.
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby Sgt Brody. » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:59 pm

KarenButtenbaum wrote:
Sgt Brody. wrote:Hey Mike and Karen,

You might have missed my question earlier, can we apply ed to UCLA, that is binding, and also apply ed to arizona state and university of arizona that is not binding. So, I know that I can only apply ed to one school, but how about a binding ed to only one school, and a non binding ed to two schools? Will UCLA immedietly find out through lsac that I have applied a non binding ed to two schools, and will that hurt my chances of admission? Thank for so much for your help, and I really appreciate your help here.


You can absolutely apply to other schools non-binding while applying binding decision to UCLA (or any other school). You are not violating any agreement by applying to other schools - and they don't expect you to not apply to other schools - as long as it isn't binding.

It is unlikely that those schools share applicant data prior to making a decision (they could get in trouble for that).

Cheers,
KB


Thank you so much Karen!

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haus
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby haus » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:10 pm

haus wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:We will be tweeting some interesting news all day for those that missed our first 47 attempts at self promotion :-)

Teaser: WUSTL up to 18, (highest ever I think).

Maybe this will be the year that Florida Coastal School of Law makes it's big move... :)

I was wrong...

University of New Hampshire School of Law (+26)

Way to go, ehh, hmmm, does anyone know the mascot for UNHSL?

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esrom55
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby esrom55 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:29 pm

haus wrote:
haus wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:We will be tweeting some interesting news all day for those that missed our first 47 attempts at self promotion :-)

Teaser: WUSTL up to 18, (highest ever I think).

Maybe this will be the year that Florida Coastal School of Law makes it's big move... :)

I was wrong...

University of New Hampshire School of Law (+26)

Way to go, ehh, hmmm, does anyone know the mascot for UNHSL?


Go Wildcats!

Fun trivia about the hotshot TTT law school: UNH School of Law used to be Franklin Pierce Law Center up until a couple years ago and their hotshot law prof is Michael McCann (link)

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:14 pm

As an FYI, if you PM'd me today please know I got a grotesque amount of calls, emails, tweets, and PM's today. I will try to get to them in the next few days I promise! Apologies for being slow.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:06 pm

Legal Education is BACK in a big way.

http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/ ... ministered

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Winston1984
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby Winston1984 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:45 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:Legal Education is BACK in a big way.

http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/ ... ministered


So does this 1.1% increase mean we actually hit the bottom?

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lastsamurai
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby lastsamurai » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:47 pm

Winston1984 wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:Legal Education is BACK in a big way.

http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/ ... ministered


So does this 1.1% increase mean we actually hit the bottom?


Doubtful...at least a few schools decided to accept February scores for this fall, so I bet those 1.1% are easily made up of people who just took trying to squeeze a few extra points out the LSAT for this cycle.

juicebox
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby juicebox » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:39 pm

Hi Mike and Karen - Are applications considered confidential? In other words, if an admissions officer reads a file from an applicant applying from a particular school or company, is s/he entitled to call somebody they may know to ask about the candidate, or even mention it in passing (i.e. I saw Mike applied, his application is great!)? Thanks!


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