Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

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Pure Protein
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby Pure Protein » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:52 pm

I was reading over the 103 page document when I came across the LOCI section. I've sent a few LOCIs off to schools that waitlisted me and I would like to send some to schools that I haven't heard anything back from yet. Should I send these non-waitlist LOCIs via email or snail mail?

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lawschool22
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby lawschool22 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:35 pm

Pure Protein wrote:I was reading over the 103 page document when I came across the LOCI section. I've sent a few LOCIs off to schools that waitlisted me and I would like to send some to schools that I haven't heard anything back from yet. Should I send these non-waitlist LOCIs via email or snail mail?


Mike wrote a blog post about this:

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/timing-timing-and-timing/

I think the advice was you shouldn't send anything to schools you haven't heard back from, unless you have some sort of really substantive update to your application (new job, promotion, updated grades, etc.).

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:09 am

Dingo Starr wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
iamgeorgebush wrote:Mike: You say in this last post not to start talking about scholarship money yet. When would be a good time to start doing this, then? Assuming an applicant has heard back from every school she has applied to.


I wish I could say more but that is one of the really value added things we do for clients PLUS very specific for schools, i.e. I couldn't really help with a broad stroke if I tried. I will say this, though, it's not a race to the start.

To be fair, though, we can limit how this advice applies specifically to Spivey Consulting's client base. It seems like a reasonable bet that the majority of people hiring you are not trying to place any lower than T1. Therefore, beginning negotiations for lower ranked schools may require different timing strategy.
Also, the post said that new USNWR rankings are coming soon. Does this mean more than a month or less than a month away? Deposit deadlines are also coming and that may not leave a lot of room to negotiate.


I checked on the USNWR release date with the dean of one law school and the associate dean of another, they had not heard either. It is always around mid March, last year I believe it was the 12th although some handsome devil had them on the 11th.

For negotiations, timing is indeed school dependent although I'm not certain it is tier dependent -- at least not categorically.

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:34 pm

Big Dog wrote:Question about testing with accommodations: since the score is flagged, and not reportable, do adcoms even care if an applicant is above or below median? In essence, if the score 'doesn't count' for official reporting purposes, are below median GPA's essentially doomed?

Thanks in advance for anyone with experience who responds.


If the accommodation includes extra time, it is true that the score is flagged (except for tests in California where a lawsuit recently changed this) and the score is not reportable to the ABA. It does not mean that it doesn't matter at all, but it is not as "reliable" as a regularly timed test. (This means that not enough research has been done to validate non-standard tests, so the scores are not proven to correlate as well as the standard tests.) So, other elements in the application may become more reliable indicators of potential success in law school. You are not doomed with a below median GPA, but a reader may be more focused on your academic record and academic recs.

They will look at your LSAT as well, and with a standard test, the higher the score, the better :)
Cheers,
kb

Big Dog
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby Big Dog » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:37 pm

makes sense, thanks karen.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:05 pm

I figured I share some really really categorically bad advice here:

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/l ... src=usn_tw

So, unlike in the article

1. Don't determine what schools you apply to based on a subjective estimate.

2. Don't cancel your score based on a subjective estimate.

3. Good gracious, don't wait until you get your score back to apply this cycle.
Last edited by MikeSpivey on Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dingo Starr
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby Dingo Starr » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:28 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:I checked on the USNWR release date with the dean of one law school and the associate dean of another, they had not heard either. It is always around mid March, last year I believe it was the 12th although some handsome devil had them on the 11th.

For negotiations, timing is indeed school dependent although I'm not certain it is tier dependent -- at least not categorically.


Thanks Mike!

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MarkinKansasCity
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MarkinKansasCity » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:37 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:I figured I share some really really categorically bad advice here:

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/l ... src=usn_tw

So, unlike in the article

1. Don't determine what schools you apply to based on a subjective estimate.

2. Don't cancel your score based on a subjective estimate

3. Good gracious, don't wait until you get your score back to apply this cycle.


That article sounds like a recipe for stress overload, with zero positive results. People obsess over estimating scores enough. I can't imagine any worse advice than to act based on those fevered nightmares.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:26 pm

MarkinKansasCity wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:I figured I share some really really categorically bad advice here:

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/l ... src=usn_tw

So, unlike in the article

1. Don't determine what schools you apply to based on a subjective estimate.

2. Don't cancel your score based on a subjective estimate

3. Good gracious, don't wait until you get your score back to apply this cycle.


That article sounds like a recipe for stress overload, with zero positive results. People obsess over estimating scores enough. I can't imagine any worse advice than to act based on those fevered nightmares.


It is borderline malpractice. There are at least 23 schools in the top 100 whose applications are due this Saturday. Add in March 1 and you are above 40 schools in the top 100. It disgusts me that people with no admissions experience pretend to know what they are doing in a public platform, which is my stating this guys story very politely. I mean, it has me so riled up I said "Good gracious"...

gta
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby gta » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:42 pm

lawschool22 wrote:Chiming in on this discussion. I just received my NYU aid offer and they "require" that I submit my deposit and intention to enroll by April 4th. Unfortunately I will not have even visited the school by that date (I'm going to their third admitted students event on April 10-11), so I will obviously have not made a final decision.

How can they require I make a decision by that date when they are still holding admitted students events after that date? It seems pretty unreasonable to expect someone to have made a decision by that point.

Is it acceptable to request an extension of that deadline? How do people normally handle this?


Gonna go ahead and bump this as it may apply to me as well.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:21 am

gta wrote:
lawschool22 wrote:Chiming in on this discussion. I just received my NYU aid offer and they "require" that I submit my deposit and intention to enroll by April 4th. Unfortunately I will not have even visited the school by that date (I'm going to their third admitted students event on April 10-11), so I will obviously have not made a final decision.

How can they require I make a decision by that date when they are still holding admitted students events after that date? It seems pretty unreasonable to expect someone to have made a decision by that point.

Is it acceptable to request an extension of that deadline? How do people normally handle this?


Gonna go ahead and bump this as it may apply to me as well.


I can't get into too much detail here suffice to say that if you are admitted to some other schools you are keenly interested in, if you haven't visited, etc etc. it would seem to be in your best interests AND THEIRS for you to have an extension to make an informed decision.

This whole policy is rather new, growing, and aggravating the hell out of applicants/admitted students etc. One would think that in this environment of down applications schools would do everything in their power to cast an overall good light on law school admissions.

Maybe I will post that scathing blog I wrote on this last cycle.

Do I seem agitated of late lol?

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lawschool22
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby lawschool22 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:46 am

MikeSpivey wrote:
gta wrote:
lawschool22 wrote:Chiming in on this discussion. I just received my NYU aid offer and they "require" that I submit my deposit and intention to enroll by April 4th. Unfortunately I will not have even visited the school by that date (I'm going to their third admitted students event on April 10-11), so I will obviously have not made a final decision.

How can they require I make a decision by that date when they are still holding admitted students events after that date? It seems pretty unreasonable to expect someone to have made a decision by that point.

Is it acceptable to request an extension of that deadline? How do people normally handle this?


Gonna go ahead and bump this as it may apply to me as well.


I can't get into too much detail here suffice to say that if you are admitted to some other schools you are keenly interested in, if you haven't visited, etc etc. it would seem to be in your best interests AND THEIRS for you to have an extension to make an informed decision.

This whole policy is rather new, growing, and aggravating the hell out of applicants/admitted students etc. One would think that in this environment of down applications schools would do everything in their power to cast an overall good light on law school admissions.

Maybe I will post that scathing blog I wrote on this last cycle.

Do I seem agitated of late lol?


It is very aggravating. It seems like in response to the down apps, they decided they would try to play hardball instead of being accommodating. They may also be seeing an uptick in the amount of people negotiating scholarships, which they could be trying to limit with a policy like this.

In any case, it's just one more thing to make this process a pain. :evil:

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:48 am

If anyone wants to help us (me/Karen) out with an informal survey on the reputation of law schools, here is the link:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=224546

Thanks!

cmscott12
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby cmscott12 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:35 pm

Mike - quick question about my LOR's.

I am 3 years out of undergrad and I have been working as a paralegal for just over 2.5 years.

I plan to get a LOR from one of my professors in my paralegal certificate program and my question concerns my LOR from my bosses at work. I work for two attorneys each of whom is capable of writing me a great LOR. I am having trouble choosing who would be best.

Would it be possible/advisable to have them write a joint LOR for the schools that only require two LOR's and have them write individual LOR's for the school that accept three?

How should I play this situation? Thanks.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:49 pm

cmscott12 wrote:Mike - quick question about my LOR's.

I am 3 years out of undergrad and I have been working as a paralegal for just over 2.5 years.

I plan to get a LOR from one of my professors in my paralegal certificate program and my question concerns my LOR from my bosses at work. I work for two attorneys each of whom is capable of writing me a great LOR. I am having trouble choosing who would be best.

Would it be possible/advisable to have them write a joint LOR for the schools that only require two LOR's and have them write individual LOR's for the school that accept three?

How should I play this situation? Thanks.


This is an interesting question. I'm trying to think about from all the thousands upon thousands of letters of rec O had read if any were jointly written, and I can't recall that off of the top of my head.

Anyway, it's really hard to differentiate in a LOR and this does it, so in a vacuum I would say "go for it" bearing in mind that this will be a bit unusual to the reader. So for a stretch school I like this idea of standing out, for a safety I see no reason to do anything but play defense...which would mean not sending a joint one.

Does that help and make sense?

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:41 pm

I have no idea is this is helpful, but here is a blog on waiting:

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/more-o ... ew-around/

linkx13
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby linkx13 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:43 pm

What did you mean on your twitter about GLUC having a strong applicant cycle?

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:21 pm

linkx13 wrote:What did you mean on your twitter about GLUC having a strong applicant cycle?


Strong people admitted to higher ranked schools seem really interested in GULC. This is anecdotal, of course, and not from a study I have seen.

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lawschool22
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby lawschool22 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:32 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
linkx13 wrote:What did you mean on your twitter about GLUC having a strong applicant cycle?


Strong people admitted to higher ranked schools seem really interested in GULC. This is anecdotal, of course, and not from a study I have seen.


There is a definite pull of being in DC for people with PI/Government aspirations. I would guess that is probably to blame, and also explains GULC's stinginess with money. They have a lot of people who want to go to the best school in D.C.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:38 pm

"Blame" lol

goCats3
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby goCats3 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:50 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:I have no idea is this is helpful, but here is a blog on waiting:

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/more-o ... ew-around/


"Schools also know there is going to be a great deal of what they refer to as “summer melting” this cycle. For many schools, this means 50% or more of their entering classes will come from summer admits."

I'm curious, how do you/they know this is going to be the case this cycle. Do you envision this happening in the T14 as well? Maybe not as high as 50%, I assume....

EDIT: Thanks for the post, very helpful in lowering anxiety levels!

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lawschool22
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby lawschool22 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:02 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:"Blame" lol


:D

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:18 pm

Enjoy the hilarity that this should ensue.

http://www.concurringopinions.com/archi ... nputs.html

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052220151
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby 052220151 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:39 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:Enjoy the hilarity that this should ensue.

http://www.concurringopinions.com/archi ... nputs.html


I love when TTT professors seek validation. Doesn't Cooley make a similar argument w/r/t incoming quality of class not being important, only how much they improve?

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Winston1984
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby Winston1984 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:13 pm

deputydog wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:Enjoy the hilarity that this should ensue.

http://www.concurringopinions.com/archi ... nputs.html


I love when TTT professors seek validation. Doesn't Cooley make a similar argument w/r/t incoming quality of class not being important, only how much they improve?


If elitists like you had it your way, QBs like Roethlisberger would never play in the NFL! (Another famous Cooley argument).


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