Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

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shifty_eyed
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby shifty_eyed » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:44 am

Mike, did you also meet with Paul Campos?

ltrego
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby ltrego » Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:18 am

MikeSpivey wrote:I had dinner tonight with the Dean of Colorado Law. they are hosting a nationwide conference on the future of law school innovation and I am invited. But here is the interest to you. There will be associate deans/deans from numerous other law schools there. In fact, it runs up against an associate deans conference in Boulder, so there will be numerous important people.

"Why are you telling us this?"

BECAUSE YOU ARE INVITED. Using my advanced negotiation tactics and/or a snow storm that had Dean Weiser just agreeing with me to get home, he said I can tweet the invitation and all my twitter followers can attend, if they want. I'll tweet that link tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/SpiveyConsult

Even if just one person from here attended that would be awesome. Plus I'll take whoever does out for coffee and we can talk admissions.


This is awesome. I'll be watching out for this tweet!

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:28 am

shifty_eyed wrote:Mike, did you also meet with Paul Campos?


I have, yes.

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:40 am

MikeSpivey wrote:I had dinner tonight with the Dean of Colorado Law. they are hosting a nationwide conference on the future of law school innovation and I am invited. But here is the interest to you. There will be associate deans/deans from numerous other law schools there. In fact, it runs up against an associate deans conference in Boulder, so there will be numerous important people.

"Why are you telling us this?"

BECAUSE YOU ARE INVITED. Using my advanced negotiation tactics and/or a snow storm that had Dean Weiser just agreeing with me to get home, he said I can tweet the invitation and all my twitter followers can attend, if they want. I'll tweet that link tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/SpiveyConsult

Even if just one person from here attended that would be awesome. Plus I'll take whoever does out for coffee and we can talk admissions.


Oh! Me! Me! I want to go. Do I get a free coffee with you too?

KB

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:44 pm

KarenButtenbaum wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:I had dinner tonight with the Dean of Colorado Law. they are hosting a nationwide conference on the future of law school innovation and I am invited. But here is the interest to you. There will be associate deans/deans from numerous other law schools there. In fact, it runs up against an associate deans conference in Boulder, so there will be numerous important people.

"Why are you telling us this?"

BECAUSE YOU ARE INVITED. Using my advanced negotiation tactics and/or a snow storm that had Dean Weiser just agreeing with me to get home, he said I can tweet the invitation and all my twitter followers can attend, if they want. I'll tweet that link tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/SpiveyConsult

Even if just one person from here attended that would be awesome. Plus I'll take whoever does out for coffee and we can talk admissions.


Oh! Me! Me! I want to go. Do I get a free coffee with you too?

KB


There's a fireside chat too. I am not kidding.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:26 pm

Okay I am going to tweet the link. There are some heavy hitting deans that will be there (Like Rodriguez from Northwestern) plus a slew of Associate Deans that actually have admissions decision-making say. So if you are on a WL or applying next year this would be a real chance to attend and try to get to know some people. Just a thought!

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:31 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:Okay I am going to tweet the link. There are some heavy hitting deans that will be there (Like Rodriguez from Northwestern) plus a slew of Associate Deans that actually have admissions decision-making say. So if you are on a WL or applying next year this would be a real chance to attend and try to get to know some people. Just a thought!


It really looks interesting! And the fireside chat is on the program :)

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:04 pm

Here ya go, because of acute demand. What can you do now at law schools you have applied to.

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/timing ... nd-timing/
Last edited by MikeSpivey on Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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lawschool22
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby lawschool22 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:07 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:here ya go, because of acute demand. What can you do now at law schools you have applied to.

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/timing ... nd-timing/


Thank you!

Do you think visits are most effective at YP-type schools, or would that advice extend all the way up and down the T14?

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:41 pm

lawschool22 wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:here ya go, because of acute demand. What can you do now at law schools you have applied to.

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/timing ... nd-timing/


Thank you!

Do you think visits are most effective at YP-type schools, or would that advice extend all the way up and down the T14?


if you go about it professionally, e.g contacting the office of admissions first, dressing well, treating the front office people respectfully, etc blah blah blah I believe this would help at every law school in the nation.

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drawstring
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby drawstring » Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:56 pm

To Mike or Karen,

For schools in which applicants are interviewed by members of the admissions committee, is there usually an attempt to balance how many applicants get accepted per interviewer? By that I mean is there a conscious effort to prevent a significantly larger proportion of applicants who interviewed with adcom A from being accepted relative to those who interviewed with adcom B or C?

Thanks!

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:54 pm

drawstring wrote:To Mike or Karen,

For schools in which applicants are interviewed by members of the admissions committee, is there usually an attempt to balance how many applicants get accepted per interviewer? By that I mean is there a conscious effort to prevent a significantly larger proportion of applicants who interviewed with adcom A from being accepted relative to those who interviewed with adcom B or C?

Thanks!


No, I don't think that this is important to the adcoms at all.
Cheers,
KB

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iamgeorgebush
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby iamgeorgebush » Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:31 pm

Mike: You say in this last post not to start talking about scholarship money yet. When would be a good time to start doing this, then? Assuming an applicant has heard back from every school she has applied to.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:39 am

iamgeorgebush wrote:Mike: You say in this last post not to start talking about scholarship money yet. When would be a good time to start doing this, then? Assuming an applicant has heard back from every school she has applied to.


George, I wish I could say more but that is one of the really value added things we do for clients PLUS very specific for schools, i.e. I couldn't really help with a broad stroke if I tried. I will say this, though, it's not a race to the start.

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nothingtosee
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby nothingtosee » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:02 am

Hey Mike and Karen,

I'm seeing schools state on their aid offers, "must be accepted by X date" or for a full ride "must be accepted within 10 business days." Is that bravura, or legit? I thought I read somewhere (Yale blog?) that the ABA doesn't allow that.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:42 am

nothingtosee wrote:Hey Mike and Karen,

I'm seeing schools state on their aid offers, "must be accepted by X date" or for a full ride "must be accepted within 10 business days." Is that bravura, or legit? I thought I read somewhere (Yale blog?) that the ABA doesn't allow that.


LSAC Statement of Good Practices and Standards allows it (I bet someone less sleepy than me can find it, bit they allow it). The Yale blog is interesting because Yale's admission dean can't stand that policy. I don't particularly like it either (I wrote a long blog about it last year and never published for a variety of "political" reasons). It limits choice.

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Dingo Starr
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby Dingo Starr » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:29 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
iamgeorgebush wrote:Mike: You say in this last post not to start talking about scholarship money yet. When would be a good time to start doing this, then? Assuming an applicant has heard back from every school she has applied to.


I wish I could say more but that is one of the really value added things we do for clients PLUS very specific for schools, i.e. I couldn't really help with a broad stroke if I tried. I will say this, though, it's not a race to the start.

To be fair, though, we can limit how this advice applies specifically to Spivey Consulting's client base. It seems like a reasonable bet that the majority of people hiring you are not trying to place any lower than T1. Therefore, beginning negotiations for lower ranked schools may require different timing strategy.
Also, the post said that new USNWR rankings are coming soon. Does this mean more than a month or less than a month away? Deposit deadlines are also coming and that may not leave a lot of room to negotiate.

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koalacity
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby koalacity » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:01 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
nothingtosee wrote:Hey Mike and Karen,

I'm seeing schools state on their aid offers, "must be accepted by X date" or for a full ride "must be accepted within 10 business days." Is that bravura, or legit? I thought I read somewhere (Yale blog?) that the ABA doesn't allow that.


LSAC Statement of Good Practices and Standards allows it (I bet someone less sleepy than me can find it, bit they allow it). The Yale blog is interesting because Yale's admission dean can't stand that policy. I don't particularly like it either (I wrote a long blog about it last year and never published for a variety of "political" reasons). It limits choice.

My understanding is that they (LSAC) allow it, but that if you have pending applications at other schools and subsequently become accepted at those schools and decide to matriculate to one of them instead, the first school can't penalize you for doing so. Is that accurate?

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:08 pm

koalacity wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
nothingtosee wrote:Hey Mike and Karen,

I'm seeing schools state on their aid offers, "must be accepted by X date" or for a full ride "must be accepted within 10 business days." Is that bravura, or legit? I thought I read somewhere (Yale blog?) that the ABA doesn't allow that.


LSAC Statement of Good Practices and Standards allows it (I bet someone less sleepy than me can find it, bit they allow it). The Yale blog is interesting because Yale's admission dean can't stand that policy. I don't particularly like it either (I wrote a long blog about it last year and never published for a variety of "political" reasons). It limits choice.

My understanding is that they (LSAC) allow it, but that if you have pending applications at other schools and subsequently become accepted at those schools and decide to matriculate to one of them instead, the first school can't penalize you for doing so. Is that accurate?


Correct, its' only for schools you have heard an admit decision from, or some wording very close to that.

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malleus discentium
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby malleus discentium » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:11 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
nothingtosee wrote:Hey Mike and Karen,

I'm seeing schools state on their aid offers, "must be accepted by X date" or for a full ride "must be accepted within 10 business days." Is that bravura, or legit? I thought I read somewhere (Yale blog?) that the ABA doesn't allow that.


LSAC Statement of Good Practices and Standards allows it (I bet someone less sleepy than me can find it, bit they allow it). The Yale blog is interesting because Yale's admission dean can't stand that policy. I don't particularly like it either (I wrote a long blog about it last year and never published for a variety of "political" reasons). It limits choice.

I suspect the posts nothingtosee refers to are these two. They don't squarely address the issue of whether deadlines are allowed, just whether schools can require you to withdraw from other schools with pending decisions as a condition of accepting the scholarship. They actually suggest that the deadlines themselves are allowed.

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neprep
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby neprep » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:23 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
koalacity wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
nothingtosee wrote:Hey Mike and Karen,

I'm seeing schools state on their aid offers, "must be accepted by X date" or for a full ride "must be accepted within 10 business days." Is that bravura, or legit? I thought I read somewhere (Yale blog?) that the ABA doesn't allow that.


LSAC Statement of Good Practices and Standards allows it (I bet someone less sleepy than me can find it, bit they allow it). The Yale blog is interesting because Yale's admission dean can't stand that policy. I don't particularly like it either (I wrote a long blog about it last year and never published for a variety of "political" reasons). It limits choice.

My understanding is that they (LSAC) allow it, but that if you have pending applications at other schools and subsequently become accepted at those schools and decide to matriculate to one of them instead, the first school can't penalize you for doing so. Is that accurate?


Correct, its' only for schools you have heard an admit decision from, or some wording very close to that.


Okay, but do "pending applications" for financial aid count as "pending applications" even after one has been admitted? So for example, if I get into Princeton Law and they tell me that they will notify me of my scholarship award in April, but NYU stipulates that I must accept the NYU award by April 4, then can I claim that I still have a "pending application" to Princeton Law (even though the application has been accepted, the notification of scholarship is still pending)?

I think the rationale behind the LSAC guideline that obtains to this question is essentially that it's acceptable for schools to force you to make a decision between offers you already have, but to dissuade them from forcing you to forgo potentially better offers that might come up in the future. By that thinking, I think "pending applications" should also apply to pending applications for scholarship, in the interest of not potentially foregoing a better offer.
Last edited by neprep on Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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nothingtosee
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby nothingtosee » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:28 pm

neprep wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
nothingtosee wrote:Hey Mike and Karen,

I'm seeing schools state on their aid offers, "must be accepted by X date" or for a full ride "must be accepted within 10 business days." Is that bravura, or legit? I thought I read somewhere (Yale blog?) that the ABA doesn't allow that.


LSAC Statement of Good Practices and Standards allows it (I bet someone less sleepy than me can find it, bit they allow it). The Yale blog is interesting because Yale's admission dean can't stand that policy. I don't particularly like it either (I wrote a long blog about it last year and never published for a variety of "political" reasons). It limits choice.



Okay, but do "pending applications" for financial aid count as "pending applications" even after one has been admitted? So for example, if I get into Princeton Law and they tell me that they will notify me of my scholarship award in April, but NYU stipulates that I must accept the NYU award by April 4, then can I claim that I still have a "pending application" to Princeton Law (even though the application has been accepted, the notification of scholarship is still pending)?
[/quote]

Also: in this scenario, what could nyu do if Jane Doe committed to nyu, but then withdrew and attended Princeton? How could nyu punish Jane?

(MD, yes, those were the posts)

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lawschool22
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby lawschool22 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:13 pm

Chiming in on this discussion. I just received my NYU aid offer and they "require" that I submit my deposit and intention to enroll by April 4th. Unfortunately I will not have even visited the school by that date (I'm going to their third admitted students event on April 10-11), so I will obviously have not made a final decision.

How can they require I make a decision by that date when they are still holding admitted students events after that date? It seems pretty unreasonable to expect someone to have made a decision by that point.

Is it acceptable to request an extension of that deadline? How do people normally handle this?

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patogordo
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby patogordo » Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:32 pm

lawschool22 wrote:Chiming in on this discussion. I just received my NYU aid offer and they "require" that I submit my deposit and intention to enroll by April 4th. Unfortunately I will not have even visited the school by that date (I'm going to their third admitted students event on April 10-11), so I will obviously have not made a final decision.

How can they require I make a decision by that date when they are still holding admitted students events after that date? It seems pretty unreasonable to expect someone to have made a decision by that point.

Is it acceptable to request an extension of that deadline? How do people normally handle this?

email them and ask for an extension. tell them you want to visit first. they might say no but its probably nbd.

Big Dog
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby Big Dog » Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:04 pm

Question about testing with accommodations: since the score is flagged, and not reportable, do adcoms even care if an applicant is above or below median? In essence, if the score 'doesn't count' for official reporting purposes, are below median GPA's essentially doomed?

Thanks in advance for anyone with experience who responds.


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