Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Special forum where professionals are encouraged to help law school applicants, students, and graduates.

Which would you prefer most?

Poll ended at Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:05 am

1. Blog advice
0
No votes
2. Podcast advice
0
No votes
3. Video advice
0
No votes
4. Just keep it all on TLS
0
No votes
5. Tweet it
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 0

leroyjenkins6969
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:14 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby leroyjenkins6969 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:04 pm

worried0L wrote:clarification: these numbers are people who are applying with these numbers now, or the number of people who got these scores this cycle?


Yea, does the bandwidth data refer to the percentage of applicants who have submitted an app this cycle?

User avatar
lawschool22
Posts: 3875
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:47 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby lawschool22 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:07 pm

melodygreenleaf wrote:
lawschool22 wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:Just tweeted some more compelling data. You guys will love these numbers.


That's great news. I wish I knew the breakdown by tier :D

This. If all T14 were part of the 25 schools that showed an increase in applications (unlikely, but we don't know), then that would actually be pretty bad.


I would be shocked if all the t14 saw increases. There are so many people who do not target the T14 that you know a significant portion of the increase comes from other schools.

User avatar
mellow
Posts: 296
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:07 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby mellow » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:12 pm

lawschool22 wrote:
melodygreenleaf wrote:
lawschool22 wrote:That's great news. I wish I knew the breakdown by tier :D

This. If all T14 were part of the 25 schools that showed an increase in applications (unlikely, but we don't know), then that would actually be pretty bad.

I would be shocked if all the t14 saw increases. There are so many people who do not target the T14 that you know a significant portion of the increase comes from other schools.
Oh definitely. Just stating worst case scenario to show my wish for breakdown by tier. Not that I'm expecting one - I'm surprised we got this information in the first place. Thanks Mike! :D

Baby_Got_Feuerbach
Posts: 977
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:22 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby Baby_Got_Feuerbach » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:17 pm

Can someone tl;dr the info from Mike? What are the ramifications? I'm a man of simple tastes, i.e., explain it to me like I'm 5.

User avatar
MikeSpivey
Posts: 2607
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 4:28 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:26 pm

Baby_Got_Feuerbach wrote:Can someone tl;dr the info from Mike? What are the ramifications? I'm a man of simple tastes, i.e., explain it to me like I'm 5.


I can't, mostly because I do not know what tl;dr means. But, I am going to keep tweeting some data. I'm not going to blog or put it on here, for a variety of reasons, which include two visits from the DOJ domain to the Spivey Consulting website yesterday. Eeep™!

User avatar
HorseThief
Posts: 713
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:45 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby HorseThief » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:36 pm

Baby_Got_Feuerbach wrote:Can someone tl;dr the info from Mike? What are the ramifications? I'm a man of simple tastes, i.e., explain it to me like I'm 5.

I'll try.


ELI5: There are fewer people applying to schools this year. Much fewer. We also know that fewer people are taking the LSAT. It appears as if the number of people scoring between 170-180 is somewhat steady, but there are fewer people with 150-170 scores (and below).

What this means for us is that it is a good year to apply. T3 schools might not see much change, but other schools will have to admit students with lower scores to fill up their classes. If you have a score in the 170's, you may even have a better shot at a T3 school, and you definitely have a better shot every other school as they will be interested in maintaining their mean LSAT score.

This is, of course, all speculation, but I could go even further and say that GPAs will be slightly less important this year, and softs even less important. This all assumes that keeping the mean LSAT steady is very important to schools.

doing_it_in_a_car
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby doing_it_in_a_car » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:45 pm

lawschool22 wrote:
melodygreenleaf wrote:
lawschool22 wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:Just tweeted some more compelling data. You guys will love these numbers.


That's great news. I wish I knew the breakdown by tier :D

This. If all T14 were part of the 25 schools that showed an increase in applications (unlikely, but we don't know), then that would actually be pretty bad.


I would be shocked if all the t14 saw increases. There are so many people who do not target the T14 that you know a significant portion of the increase comes from other schools.


I bet that, even if t14s are seeing increases in applicants, they probably aren't seeing increases in high quality applicants. LST, TLS, and even the mainstream media have published a great deal regarding the crisis in legal employment and the importance of credentials from a top law school, so its possible that more applicants are reaching for t14. But with Spivey reporting that 170+ scorers this cycle will be effectively just as scarce as last cycle and the overall 15% decline in applicants again, I think top quality applicants can rest easy.

chrispyreddit
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:36 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby chrispyreddit » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:08 pm

I (also) hope it's okay if I repost this, because man, what a flurry of activity yesterday!


chrispyreddit wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:WOW, only 14,171 applicants as of 12/06 and applications are down 15.7 from this point last cycle.

http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/ ... ear-volume

I am super, super cereal (anyone?), mad-dash this cycle!


obviously we haven't seen the breakdown of any of this data, but would you mind speculating on how this is likely to affect supersplitters at top schools? like, sub 3.0 gpa and above 75th (for MOST of the t-14 and all my target schools) lsat. Does this change your ideas of which (mid t14) schools might be willing to dip below their traditional GPA floor? Or are supersplitters still basically screwed everywhere except UVA and NU? thanks mike and karen!


Actually, this becomes even more interesting for us super splitters with these new numbers you tweeted. Thoughts? thanks!

californiauser
Posts: 1181
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:10 am

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby californiauser » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:01 pm

nothingtosee wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:Just tweeted some more compelling data. You guys will love these numbers.


Any hint as to how many are T14?
And it's been buried in the deluge, but Mike and Karen - thoughts on Harvard extending its deadline/accepting feb scores?


Mike, I think you can tell us this :D

User avatar
MikeSpivey
Posts: 2607
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 4:28 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:10 pm

californiauser wrote:
nothingtosee wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:Just tweeted some more compelling data. You guys will love these numbers.


Any hint as to how many are T14?
And it's been buried in the deluge, but Mike and Karen - thoughts on Harvard extending its deadline/accepting feb scores?


Mike, I think you can tell us this :D


My answer remains the same, apologies!

Baby_Got_Feuerbach
Posts: 977
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:22 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby Baby_Got_Feuerbach » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:44 pm

HorseThief wrote:
Baby_Got_Feuerbach wrote:Can someone tl;dr the info from Mike? What are the ramifications? I'm a man of simple tastes, i.e., explain it to me like I'm 5.

I'll try.


ELI5: There are fewer people applying to schools this year. Much fewer. We also know that fewer people are taking the LSAT. It appears as if the number of people scoring between 170-180 is somewhat steady, but there are fewer people with 150-170 scores (and below).

What this means for us is that it is a good year to apply. T3 schools might not see much change, but other schools will have to admit students with lower scores to fill up their classes. If you have a score in the 170's, you may even have a better shot at a T3 school, and you definitely have a better shot every other school as they will be interested in maintaining their mean LSAT score.

This is, of course, all speculation, but I could go even further and say that GPAs will be slightly less important this year, and softs even less important. This all assumes that keeping the mean LSAT steady is very important to schools.


Got it, thanks! I read a few pages and it seemed like some thought that it doesn't mean too much for people looking at t14-t25-t50 schools but I couldn't be sure.

Mike -- tl;dr: too long; didn't read :-D Looks like there are 5 new pages since I last visited this thread...three days ago.

TigerDude
Posts: 174
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:42 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby TigerDude » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:27 pm

MikeSpivey wrote: I'm not going to blog or put it on here, for a variety of reasons, which include two visits from the DOJ domain to the Spivey Consulting website yesterday. Eeep™!


Google Analytics: Keeping You Up at Night!

User avatar
redsox
Posts: 612
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:40 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby redsox » Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:22 am

MikeSpivey wrote:
SPerez wrote:A long time ago, I was talking to a colleague from a private school. He told me about a period in his school's past where their app volume was lagging behind their peer schools. They had been positioning themselves to be the "value" among the similar schools in their region, with tuition below the peer group average. A consultant told them their tuition was too low, that applicants see a lower tuition and assume a lower quality education. They raised their tuition to above the peer average, offsetting it a bit with additional scholarships, and their applications went up.

Dean Perez


That is called a "giffin good" in economics terms. My MBA has now amounted to something, woo-hoo!

The classic example is Grey Poupon lowered their prices and sales dropped, raised and sales went back up.


Don't want to start an off-topic discussion, but I don't think either of these are really examples of Giffen goods, at least not in the classic sense.

EDIT: Sorry, should have explained and not just dropped that. They're Veblen goods, which is really more of a psychology/marketing concept than an economics concept. They're both types of goods that violate the law of demand (meaning that as price increases, quantity increases), but for different reasons. The reasoning for Veblen goods is as above: people percieve a higher price as a signal of higher quality, and buy more. The rationale for Giffen goods is more subtle, and it's not at all clear that they actually exist. Suppose you are poor, and food (bread and meat) costs a large portion of your income. Bread is cheap and meat is expensive, so you eat a lot of bread and only a little meat. Now the price of bread goes up. But you can't just substitute meat for it - the meat is a luxury and bread is still much cheaper on a per calorie basis. So you stop buying the meat and buy more bread. Even though the price went up.

Instinctive
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:23 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby Instinctive » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:22 pm

redsox wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
SPerez wrote:A long time ago, I was talking to a colleague from a private school. He told me about a period in his school's past where their app volume was lagging behind their peer schools. They had been positioning themselves to be the "value" among the similar schools in their region, with tuition below the peer group average. A consultant told them their tuition was too low, that applicants see a lower tuition and assume a lower quality education. They raised their tuition to above the peer average, offsetting it a bit with additional scholarships, and their applications went up.

Dean Perez


That is called a "giffin good" in economics terms. My MBA has now amounted to something, woo-hoo!

The classic example is Grey Poupon lowered their prices and sales dropped, raised and sales went back up.


Don't want to start an off-topic discussion, but I don't think either of these are really examples of Giffen goods, at least not in the classic sense.

EDIT: Sorry, should have explained and not just dropped that. They're Veblen goods, which is really more of a psychology/marketing concept than an economics concept. They're both types of goods that violate the law of demand (meaning that as price increases, quantity increases), but for different reasons. The reasoning for Veblen goods is as above: people percieve a higher price as a signal of higher quality, and buy more. The rationale for Giffen goods is more subtle, and it's not at all clear that they actually exist. Suppose you are poor, and food (bread and meat) costs a large portion of your income. Bread is cheap and meat is expensive, so you eat a lot of bread and only a little meat. Now the price of bread goes up. But you can't just substitute meat for it - the meat is a luxury and bread is still much cheaper on a per calorie basis. So you stop buying the meat and buy more bread. Even though the price went up.


I like that you took the direct example from Wikipedia. :thumbsup:

User avatar
redsox
Posts: 612
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:40 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby redsox » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:30 pm

Instinctive wrote:I like that you took the direct example from Wikipedia. :thumbsup:


I'm pretty sure it's the example used in every economics class ever.

User avatar
MikeSpivey
Posts: 2607
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 4:28 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:47 pm

redsox wrote:
Instinctive wrote:I like that you took the direct example from Wikipedia. :thumbsup:


I'm pretty sure it's the example used in every economics class ever.


Thanks for reconfirming then that I learned nothing in b-school.

Also, in our economics class the example was Grey Poupon, so not bread/meat.

User avatar
TheMostDangerousLG
Posts: 1547
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:25 am

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby TheMostDangerousLG » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:48 pm

Can students take the LSAT in June to try to get off waitlists? Or more specifically, if a student got waitlisted in January, if they tell a school they are planning on taking the June LSAT, will schools actually wait and see how that goes? I would take February, but I don't think I'm going to have sufficient time to study before then.

User avatar
The-Specs
Posts: 1037
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:55 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby The-Specs » Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:53 pm

TheMostDangerousLG wrote:Can students take the LSAT in June to try to get off waitlists? Or more specifically, if a student got waitlisted in January, if they tell a school they are planning on taking the June LSAT, will schools actually wait and see how that goes? I would take February, but I don't think I'm going to have sufficient time to study before then.


MDLG, you already have a great LSAT score, what do you think will be gained by taking it again? I mean, if you score a 179 or a 180 maybe it will put you over the edge but at this point you are already at or above every 75th percentile except for Yale's. I just don't think that schools care enough about their top quartile to warrant retaking.

User avatar
MikeSpivey
Posts: 2607
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 4:28 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:58 pm

MDLG yes for most schools you absolutely can.

Also, taking the LSAT again when you have a 175+ is called a Giffin Good.

pancho
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:05 am

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby pancho » Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:10 pm

bouleversement wrote:
bouleversement wrote:Mike & Karen,

Would an applicant on the fringe at [insert top school here] have any advantage this cycle in applying 15 December instead of 15 January? I realize in years past the credited response was to submit as early as possible but might that advice not apply this year since adcoms are so uncertain about the final composition of the applicant pool? They will take a look at the applications they have received by the end of the window without so much regard as to when in the window they arrived? I am asking solely in regard to applicants on the borderline.

Thank you for your time.


Mike and Karen,

Given the amount of activity here lately I hope you do not mind my re-posting of an earlier question.

Thank you!


To piggyback on this question, would taking the February LSAT also not necessarily negatively impact an application? I have heard applicants in past years caution the February LSAT was a poor decision in that the class was largely filled by the time the score arrived in March. Would you suggest that this year that may not necessarily be the case because schools will be sitting on a larger portion of decisions later into the cycle than they usually have? Thanks! You guys are great.

User avatar
redsox
Posts: 612
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:40 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby redsox » Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:13 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:Also, taking the LSAT again when you have a 175+ is called a Giffin Good.


Sounds right to me.

Baby_Got_Feuerbach
Posts: 977
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:22 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby Baby_Got_Feuerbach » Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:53 pm

pancho wrote:
bouleversement wrote:
bouleversement wrote:Mike & Karen,

Would an applicant on the fringe at [insert top school here] have any advantage this cycle in applying 15 December instead of 15 January? I realize in years past the credited response was to submit as early as possible but might that advice not apply this year since adcoms are so uncertain about the final composition of the applicant pool? They will take a look at the applications they have received by the end of the window without so much regard as to when in the window they arrived? I am asking solely in regard to applicants on the borderline.

Thank you for your time.


Mike and Karen,

Given the amount of activity here lately I hope you do not mind my re-posting of an earlier question.

Thank you!


To piggyback on this question, would taking the February LSAT also not necessarily negatively impact an application? I have heard applicants in past years caution the February LSAT was a poor decision in that the class was largely filled by the time the score arrived in March. Would you suggest that this year that may not necessarily be the case because schools will be sitting on a larger portion of decisions later into the cycle than they usually have? Thanks! You guys are great.


http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/ :-D

pancho
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:05 am

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby pancho » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:13 pm

Baby_Got_Feuerbach wrote:
pancho wrote:
bouleversement wrote:
bouleversement wrote:Mike & Karen,

Would an applicant on the fringe at [insert top school here] have any advantage this cycle in applying 15 December instead of 15 January? I realize in years past the credited response was to submit as early as possible but might that advice not apply this year since adcoms are so uncertain about the final composition of the applicant pool? They will take a look at the applications they have received by the end of the window without so much regard as to when in the window they arrived? I am asking solely in regard to applicants on the borderline.

Thank you for your time.


Mike and Karen,

Given the amount of activity here lately I hope you do not mind my re-posting of an earlier question.

Thank you!


To piggyback on this question, would taking the February LSAT also not necessarily negatively impact an application? I have heard applicants in past years caution the February LSAT was a poor decision in that the class was largely filled by the time the score arrived in March. Would you suggest that this year that may not necessarily be the case because schools will be sitting on a larger portion of decisions later into the cycle than they usually have? Thanks! You guys are great.


http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/ :-D


Think I have read them all. Could you be more specific?

User avatar
MikeSpivey
Posts: 2607
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 4:28 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:15 pm

redsox wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:Also, taking the LSAT again when you have a 175+ is called a Giffin Good.


Sounds right to me.



Last post of the day because I have mega work to do BUT, redsox you inspired this new admissions package for next cycle.

We are going to offer FULL Cycle 2014/15 Admissions Consulting + two tickets on top of the Red Sox dugout (it pays to have happy clients from last year) and you can go with either Karen (likely) or me to the game and talk admissions through as much of the game as you want.

We'll make sure we get the two tix plus a date and post on our blog in ear;ly 2014. I think this sounds cool, yes?

Mike

Baby_Got_Feuerbach
Posts: 977
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:22 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby Baby_Got_Feuerbach » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:59 pm

pancho wrote:Think I have read them all. Could you be more specific?


Because I like Mike so much. http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/help-m ... his-cycle/


Return to “Free Help and Advice from Professionals”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests