Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

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MikeSpivey
Posts: 2609
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 4:28 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:54 am

cannibal ox wrote:Any word on the number of October LSAT takers? I heard rumors of a 13% drop from last October but it sounded unconfirmed.


10.9%

smallbrownbear
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:25 am

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby smallbrownbear » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:38 am

SPerez wrote:What's confusing you is probably the tendency on TLS for people to not consider Asian as a "real" minority because of their (real or perceived, depending on what school you're talking about) over-representation in higher education. They are, however, absolutely considered an under-represented minority in American law schools generally, even if they may constitute a larger proportion of the class at any specific school than in the general population of that school's region.

In case anyone is wondering, the ABA categories (many universities use more detailed, nuanced categories) are:

Non-Resident Alien (not counted as "minority")
Race and Ethnicity Unkown
Hispanics of Any Race
American Indian or Alaska Native
Asian
Black or African American
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander
White
Two or More Races

It can get a little complicated sometimes, but it's usually easy to figure out as long as the student gives us enough information. E.g., someone who is of Afro-Cuban descent would go in the "Hispanic of any race" category, while Tiger Woods would go in the "Two or More Races" category. On the other hand, someone who is, say, half European and half Middle-Eastern would count in the "White" category since both are included in the description for that category.

Dean Perez



thanks Dean Perez. One more question: Do asians, then, get the corresponding URM boost in admissions? the thing is, I have always heard exactly the opposite. I mean, I'm sure they get no boost and no "punishment", but I heard that a while ago it could have hurt you to mark asian because there were so many in law school. I don't think that's the case anymore, but I've also never heard that they get a "urm boost". Do they? what about a mixed race (say, white/asian), do they get a URM admissions boost?

Thanks to Dean Perez, and also Mike and Karen for a) starting and/or contributing to this awesome thread, and b) letting it get sidetracked momentarily :)

tsv
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby tsv » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:55 am

Hello,

I had a quick question. Suppose someone were to retake the LSAT and somehow score 3-4 points lower than their original take. Is this highly frowned upon? Would it be better to take the LSAT a third time to show that the second take was not indicative of your potential?

Thank you for all your help!

Humbert Humbert
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby Humbert Humbert » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:57 am

MikeSpivey wrote:
cannibal ox wrote:Any word on the number of October LSAT takers? I heard rumors of a 13% drop from last October but it sounded unconfirmed.


10.9%


Thoughts on what this portends for this cycle?

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:27 pm

Sorry to have been so busy the past few days and we still are, but I did have a few seconds to share this with those who have said they like the fox. We will get to the outstanding questions I promise!

Image

linkx13
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby linkx13 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:50 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
cannibal ox wrote:Any word on the number of October LSAT takers? I heard rumors of a 13% drop from last October but it sounded unconfirmed.


10.9%


How could you know this?

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Motivator9
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby Motivator9 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:39 am

MikeSpivey wrote:Sorry to have been so busy the past few days and we still are, but I did have a few seconds to share this with those who have said they like the fox. We will get to the outstanding questions I promise!

Image


Tell us Mike , how are things going then? Busy time aye?

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teampeeta
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby teampeeta » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:32 am

Another question for Mike and Karen:

How is a lower retake viewed by admissions committees? I got a 173 on the October test and was hoping to be competitive for scholarships at top 14 schools and admission to the top 3 schools. I think on the right day I could do significantly better (177-180), but who knows whether that would happen on the day of the December LSAT or not. There's obviously a risk of doing worse any time you retake the LSAT.

How detrimental would it be to my chances if I retook the test and didn't improve significantly? FWIW, I have taken the LSAT before October and I am an URM for law school admissions purposes.

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midwest17
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby midwest17 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:30 am

Quick question: I got an email from a law school today that said LSAT was releasing Oct LSAT scores to schools next Monday. Is it true that schools only get access to the new LSAT scores through CRS a week after they're released to students? I'm mainly asking when we can start to expect fee waivers.

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PotenC
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby PotenC » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:45 am

.
Last edited by PotenC on Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:06 am

midwest17 wrote:Quick question: I got an email from a law school today that said LSAT was releasing Oct LSAT scores to schools next Monday. Is it true that schools only get access to the new LSAT scores through CRS a week after they're released to students? I'm mainly asking when we can start to expect fee waivers.


Yes, you all get them first and then a few days/a week later LSAC releases them. I would expect a fee waiver deluge next week.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:06 am

Motivator9 wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:Sorry to have been so busy the past few days and we still are, but I did have a few seconds to share this with those who have said they like the fox. We will get to the outstanding questions I promise!

Image


Tell us Mike , how are things going then? Busy time aye?


Super busy! Thanks for checking :)

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midwest17
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby midwest17 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:37 am

MikeSpivey wrote:
midwest17 wrote:Quick question: I got an email from a law school today that said LSAT was releasing Oct LSAT scores to schools next Monday. Is it true that schools only get access to the new LSAT scores through CRS a week after they're released to students? I'm mainly asking when we can start to expect fee waivers.


Yes, you all get them first and then a few days/a week later LSAC releases them. I would expect a fee waiver deluge next week.


Thanks!

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McGruff
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby McGruff » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:42 am

PotenC wrote:Hi Mike and Karen,

Is there such a thing as a misbubbling addendum? I got my results back a few days ago and noticed that I misbubbled (offset by one answer) in the middle of the last section and got -12 wrong, while only getting -5 in all the other sections combined. I got my letter back from the handscoring people today for no change.

So as of right now I'm registered for December.

I'm also wondering how schools would consider a lower second take. (167 in June, 166 this October due to misbubble).


You should write LSAC and provide as much information as you can, if you know the exact questions and the misbubbling is a clear pattern, it might be worth seeing if they'd do something about it. It definitely can't hurt, and you never know.

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PotenC
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby PotenC » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:08 pm

.
Last edited by PotenC on Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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McGruff
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby McGruff » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:32 pm

PotenC wrote:
McGruff wrote:
PotenC wrote:Hi Mike and Karen,

Is there such a thing as a misbubbling addendum? I got my results back a few days ago and noticed that I misbubbled (offset by one answer) in the middle of the last section and got -12 wrong, while only getting -5 in all the other sections combined. I got my letter back from the handscoring people today for no change.

So as of right now I'm registered for December.

I'm also wondering how schools would consider a lower second take. (167 in June, 166 this October due to misbubble).


You should write LSAC and provide as much information as you can, if you know the exact questions and the misbubbling is a clear pattern, it might be worth seeing if they'd do something about it. It definitely can't hurt, and you never know.


Actually, this morning was when I got the letter back from LSAC indicating no change.


Damn, man. I feel for you.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:26 pm

linkx13 wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
cannibal ox wrote:Any word on the number of October LSAT takers? I heard rumors of a 13% drop from last October but it sounded unconfirmed.


10.9%


How could you know this?


Total # this Oct = 33,673 (we tweeted this right after LSAC released scores, fyi) down 10.9% from 2012. Total LSATs administered is 57,670 compared to 63,003 from last year.

A link from our twitter shows this, some more, and a pretty graph.

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gb47
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby gb47 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:33 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
linkx13 wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
cannibal ox wrote:Any word on the number of October LSAT takers? I heard rumors of a 13% drop from last October but it sounded unconfirmed.


10.9%


How could you know this?


Total # this Oct = 33,673 (we tweeted this right after LSAC released scores, fyi) down 10.9% from 2012. Total LSATs administered is 57,670 compared to 63,003 from last year.

A link from our twitter shows this, some more, and a pretty graph.


Do you expect this drop to result in a decrease in medians comparable to last cycle?

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MoMettaMonk
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MoMettaMonk » Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:59 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
linkx13 wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
cannibal ox wrote:Any word on the number of October LSAT takers? I heard rumors of a 13% drop from last October but it sounded unconfirmed.


10.9%


How could you know this?


Total # this Oct = 33,673 (we tweeted this right after LSAC released scores, fyi) down 10.9% from 2012. Total LSATs administered is 57,670 compared to 63,003 from last year.

A link from our twitter shows this, some more, and a pretty graph.


Do you know if the trend of high scorers dropping faster the general pool has continued or has that info not been released yet?

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:22 pm

MoMettaMonk wrote:
Do you know if the trend of high scorers dropping faster the general pool has continued or has that info not been released yet?


I won't get that until early Dec, fyi. Will blog it once I do.

SPerez
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby SPerez » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:26 pm

smallbrownbear wrote:
SPerez wrote:What's confusing you is probably the tendency on TLS for people to not consider Asian as a "real" minority because of their (real or perceived, depending on what school you're talking about) over-representation in higher education. They are, however, absolutely considered an under-represented minority in American law schools generally, even if they may constitute a larger proportion of the class at any specific school than in the general population of that school's region.

In case anyone is wondering, the ABA categories (many universities use more detailed, nuanced categories) are:

Non-Resident Alien (not counted as "minority")
Race and Ethnicity Unkown
Hispanics of Any Race
American Indian or Alaska Native
Asian
Black or African American

Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander

White
Two or More Races

It can get a little complicated sometimes, but it's usually easy to figure out as long as the student gives us enough information. E.g., someone who is of Afro-Cuban descent would go in the "Hispanic of any race" category, while Tiger Woods would go in the "Two or More Races" category. On the other hand, someone who is, say, half European and half Middle-Eastern would count in the "White" category since both are included in the description for that category.

Dean Perez



thanks Dean Perez. One more question: Do asians, then, get the corresponding URM boost in admissions? the thing is, I have always heard exactly the opposite. I mean, I'm sure they get no boost and no "punishment", but I heard that a while ago it could have hurt you to mark asian because there were so many in law school. I don't think that's the case anymore, but I've also never heard that they get a "urm boost". Do they? what about a mixed race (say, white/asian), do they get a URM admissions boost?

Thanks to Dean Perez, and also Mike and Karen for a) starting and/or contributing to this awesome thread, and b) letting it get sidetracked momentarily :)



That reads to me like the same question I answered, but let me put it another way.

Asians are reported as minorities.
Multi-racial students are reported as minorities if one of the two races is one of those that I bolded in my original list.

It's up to each school to decide whether or not that, in and of itself, is of value sufficient to influence the admissions decision. And even if it is, then they must decide if that influence is significant or not. All in all, this is another thing I put in the category of "Things applicants worry about that they shouldn't because they can't do anything about it".

Does that clarify things?

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:02 pm

SPerez wrote:
smallbrownbear wrote:
SPerez wrote:What's confusing you is probably the tendency on TLS for people to not consider Asian as a "real" minority because of their (real or perceived, depending on what school you're talking about) over-representation in higher education. They are, however, absolutely considered an under-represented minority in American law schools generally, even if they may constitute a larger proportion of the class at any specific school than in the general population of that school's region.

In case anyone is wondering, the ABA categories (many universities use more detailed, nuanced categories) are:

Non-Resident Alien (not counted as "minority")
Race and Ethnicity Unkown
Hispanics of Any Race
American Indian or Alaska Native
Asian
Black or African American

Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander

White
Two or More Races

It can get a little complicated sometimes, but it's usually easy to figure out as long as the student gives us enough information. E.g., someone who is of Afro-Cuban descent would go in the "Hispanic of any race" category, while Tiger Woods would go in the "Two or More Races" category. On the other hand, someone who is, say, half European and half Middle-Eastern would count in the "White" category since both are included in the description for that category.

Dean Perez



thanks Dean Perez. One more question: Do asians, then, get the corresponding URM boost in admissions? the thing is, I have always heard exactly the opposite. I mean, I'm sure they get no boost and no "punishment", but I heard that a while ago it could have hurt you to mark asian because there were so many in law school. I don't think that's the case anymore, but I've also never heard that they get a "urm boost". Do they? what about a mixed race (say, white/asian), do they get a URM admissions boost?

Thanks to Dean Perez, and also Mike and Karen for a) starting and/or contributing to this awesome thread, and b) letting it get sidetracked momentarily :)



That reads to me like the same question I answered, but let me put it another way.

Asians are reported as minorities.
Multi-racial students are reported as minorities if one of the two races is one of those that I bolded in my original list.

It's up to each school to decide whether or not that, in and of itself, is of value sufficient to influence the admissions decision. And even if it is, then they must decide if that influence is significant or not. All in all, this is another thing I put in the category of "Things applicants worry about that they shouldn't because they can't do anything about it".

Does that clarify things?


Let me elaborate because I think the answer I am giving is more towards what applicants want to know and because I am free to speak without having a school behind me and the political ramifications this entails. All of the highlighted go to the ABA and count towards URM as Perez says. But of major consideration to YOU ALL, where is the "admissions bump" at? While it is up to the individual school, again as Perez indicates, the "bump" is not nearly as substantial for Asian students at the vast majority of schools as it is for Hispanics of Any Race American Indian or Alaska Native Black or African America

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:06 pm

SPerez wrote:. All in all, this is another thing I put in the category of "Things applicants worry about that they shouldn't because they can't do anything about it".


I actually think these are very legitimate things to consider and know the answer, as much as we all can, to. In other words, why not ask for an answer to these?

smallbrownbear
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby smallbrownbear » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:22 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:Let me elaborate because I think the answer I am giving is more towards what applicants want to know and because I am free to speak without having a school behind me and the political ramifications this entails. All of the highlighted go to the ABA and count towards URM as Perez says. But of major consideration to YOU ALL, where is the "admissions bump" at? While it is up to the individual school, again as Perez indicates, the "bump" is not nearly as substantial for Asian students at the vast majority of schools as it is for Hispanics of Any Race American Indian or Alaska Native Black or African America


@Dean Perez: Yes, this clarifies for me. In retrospect, it was pretty clear from your first post, but given that I have always heard exactly the opposite, it was hard to wrap my mind around. In all honesty, I figured (wrongly) that you may have been using the term "URM" in more of a lay sense than in an admissions sense, just because I was so surprised by the information. Apologies if it seemed like I was questioning unnecessarily!

It's really, really wild to hear that. I've been lurking here for the better part of two years, and have seen many, many threads about what counts as a URM. Most if not all have said something along the lines of "Black, hispanic, native american are URM, everyone else is an 'over-represented minority' and aren't considered URM at all, by any school".

@mike: this was, indeed what I was wondering about, although it unfortunately doesn't help me so much as I'm so freaking caucasian. It's just so counter to conventional wisdom to think that asians, mixed race, etc get any kind of admissions bump at all. But it just goes to show how uninformed we all really are about the admissions process, and much much it helps to have you and other people who have actually been on an adcom here as a resource!

Thanks again to everyone (but especially Mike, the all-powerful creator God of this thread) who contributed to this subdiscussion!

on the fence
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Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officers

Postby on the fence » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:49 pm

I have a minor C&F issue (cited by RA for alcohol in dorms) that I will be explaining in my apps. The problem is that I am reapplying to some schools after increasing my LSAT a bunch, and I did not include this offense on my applications last year. It was a pretty honest mistake. I was rushed to get my apps in and completely spaced on it ever happening. Should I put in my C&F addendums that I forgot to add this last cycle? Or should I just stick to explaining what happened?

Thanks so much, his thread and your blog have been extremely helpful this go around. Wish I had known about it earlier.


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