Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Special forum where professionals are encouraged to help law school applicants, students, and graduates.

What movie should we all watch at the Spivey Consulting Firm Retreat?

The Town
21
14%
Interstellar
60
40%
Cabin in the Woods
37
25%
Logan
31
21%
 
Total votes: 149

cinderellasyndrome
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby cinderellasyndrome » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:33 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
cinderellasyndrome wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
cinderellasyndrome wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
cinderellasyndrome wrote:Hey, I'm not sure if I'm too late here, but I've got a question.

I applied very late in this cycle to a school I really want to go to (regional out of state) and was waitlisted. I followed up with a LOCI and a phone call. They ended up accepting me off the waitlist, after saying it was very unlikely they'd take anyone, and giving me scholarship money. With that said, between the time I was waitlisted and the time they accepted me, I got to thinking that I should wait one more cycle (for multiple reasons, personal health being primary) and settled on that pretty quickly.

My question is, given all they did for me this cycle, am I shooting myself in the foot by turning down their offer, citing my desire to wait a cycle, and applying pretty much as soon as my September LSATs come in? It's my top choice school and I'm almost positive it will be next year as well; I'm just not ready to start law school and I'm thinking it will end up being a mistake to start this fall.


You might be for sure with THAT school. I have a feeling if it is where you wanted to be, it may be problematic next cycle.


So my options are to go to my dream school before I'm ready and go into way more debt than I'm comfortable with to do it, or to give up on the school entirely? :(

Does the answer change if I get my LSAT score up?


Or ask for a deferral. Or yes retake and if you get a better score let them know you still hope to be there you were just worried about debt. If you weren't ready why did you apply this cycle? (asking for law school -- who will have the same exact question if you reapply, and think you didn't actually get your real dream school).


It sort of took me a while to realize I wasn't ready. I definitely have plans to ask about deferral and remain in very close contact with them to reassure them of my continued interest.

I'm confused by your last comment. You're saying that the school will think they're not my dream school and that I'm lying to them somehow?


You told them they are your dream school and yet after they admitted you, you are now not going and taking the LSAT. So they will be suspicious. Or at least most would be. Every year almost every school gets burned by just this. So yes, they possibly will think you were telling multiple schools that each was the dream school when the one you really want you weren't admitted to. The fact that you thought to ask makes me also think instinctually you get all of this.


Ah, there's the point of confusion. I said here that they're my dream school (which is true); I never used those terms or any similar terms with them. I wrote a pretty standard-issue LOCI, honestly. And yes, I do get this on some level, but I worry that my knowledge of my own motivations is clouding my ability to assess how to best proceed. Why I'm asking you these questions is because you provide an objective, experienced take on how this will read to the adcom (for which I'm deeply grateful, by the way) – which, ultimately, is the only thing that's going to matter. As an example, your point about "not going and taking the LSAT" is well taken, and I hadn't considered how those two things would look in combination. I appreciate your time and expertise. If I could bother you with one final question (recognizing that you've done more than enough already) – if you were a dean of admission at this school, what if anything would convince you that someone like me were committed to attending next cycle?

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:32 am

cinderellasyndrome wrote:Ah, there's the point of confusion. I said here that they're my dream school (which is true); I never used those terms or any similar terms with them. I wrote a pretty standard-issue LOCI, honestly. And yes, I do get this on some level, but I worry that my knowledge of my own motivations is clouding my ability to assess how to best proceed. Why I'm asking you these questions is because you provide an objective, experienced take on how this will read to the adcom (for which I'm deeply grateful, by the way) – which, ultimately, is the only thing that's going to matter. As an example, your point about "not going and taking the LSAT" is well taken, and I hadn't considered how those two things would look in combination. I appreciate your time and expertise. If I could bother you with one final question (recognizing that you've done more than enough already) – if you were a dean of admission at this school, what if anything would convince you that someone like me were committed to attending next cycle?


Well the deferral ask will help. it's a nuanced situation though -- the reapplication. Yes keep in touch with them, be honest, and if they have a binding ED program with $$$ that would be huge. I don't think I should say much more because there are so many variables. I'd say also I wouldn't say more because they might be reading TLS and figure out who you are, but in this case that would be good :)

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:33 am

Hi all,

If you would like to help us wee are taking the survey down tomorrow night and the average time to complete it is only 3 minutes, per the survey results. So if you haven't filled it out I would be super appreciative. it's a bout a law school. The more data the better!

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/6Q5YJ39

Thanks so much!

Mike

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it's allgood
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby it's allgood » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:44 am

MikeSpivey wrote:Hi world.

Could you do me a favor and listen to this podcast from Sept. of last year. And share with people. Share anywhere you'd like -- TLS, Reddit, Kik (I actually don't know what this is)

http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/podcas ... ons-cycle/

Here are the benefits for you,

1. You can hear my giggle like an idiot a few times. No idea why I was doing this.

2. It will greatly relieve many later this year, come Nov, of feeling panic attacks set in.

3. It dispels like 72 law school admissions myths.

4. It explains what a counter-cycle is.

5. It gives the singular most important admissions date there is, and why.

Benefits to me,

1. It will save me so much time is questions, emails, PMS, phone calls, etc that I can take my dog for an extra walk each day.

Thanks all! Have a great cycle!

Mike


Just on #4 alone I am going to listen to this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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tuna_wasabi
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby tuna_wasabi » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:15 pm

Spivey,

How important is a unifying personal statement? For instance, if other parts of my app consistently indicate an interest in one field, would it be preferable if I write about something related to that field?

Asking because I feel that my topic for diversity statement is interesting and that it will likely exceed one page. At this rate, it may be as long as, or even longer than, my personal statement

scoopy5
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby scoopy5 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:39 pm

Hi Spivey,

If my score is valid, but it's not "fresh" (say ~4 years old), does this weigh against me in admissions?

Thanks!

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:11 pm

tuna_wasabi wrote:Spivey,

How important is a unifying personal statement? For instance, if other parts of my app consistently indicate an interest in one field, would it be preferable if I write about something related to that field?

Asking because I feel that my topic for diversity statement is interesting and that it will likely exceed one page. At this rate, it may be as long as, or even longer than, my personal statement


Keep in mind that personal statements are never read in a vacuum - they are read as part of your entire application all at the same time. So there is no need to address over and over again that you are interested in a particular field. The application as a whole should make sense and represent you in all of the ways that you want it to - so don't write something in the PS that may seem forces.
And also keep in mind that diversity statements are truly optional, so you don't need to have both a PS and a DS if just one makes sense for your app. (Meaning maybe your DS can serves as your PS if you are really into it and aren't crazy about the PS idea?)

KB

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:14 pm

scoopy5 wrote:Hi Spivey,

If my score is valid, but it's not "fresh" (say ~4 years old), does this weigh against me in admissions?

Thanks!


The score itself will matter - the timing may not matter so much if it is a solid score :)
However, there are some schools that particularly state that they prefer an LSAT score that was taken in the past x years, but a valid score is a valid score.

KB

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tuna_wasabi
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby tuna_wasabi » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:58 pm

KarenButtenbaum wrote:
tuna_wasabi wrote:Spivey,

How important is a unifying personal statement? For instance, if other parts of my app consistently indicate an interest in one field, would it be preferable if I write about something related to that field?

Asking because I feel that my topic for diversity statement is interesting and that it will likely exceed one page. At this rate, it may be as long as, or even longer than, my personal statement


Keep in mind that personal statements are never read in a vacuum - they are read as part of your entire application all at the same time. So there is no need to address over and over again that you are interested in a particular field. The application as a whole should make sense and represent you in all of the ways that you want it to - so don't write something in the PS that may seem forces.
And also keep in mind that diversity statements are truly optional, so you don't need to have both a PS and a DS if just one makes sense for your app. (Meaning maybe your DS can serves as your PS if you are really into it and aren't crazy about the PS idea?)

KB


Thank you Karen! Yes, that's what I was considering. Also, judging from the personal statements on Spivey's website (http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/all-sample-personal-statements/), we do not necessarily have to explain why we want to go to law school, or am I wrong? I guess I am struggling because of many of the committee's remarks on TLS Personal Statement page, such as this one: http://www.top-law-schools.com/chapter8.html, are related to the candidate's motivation or "fit" for law school.

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:14 pm

tuna_wasabi wrote:
KarenButtenbaum wrote:
tuna_wasabi wrote:Spivey,

How important is a unifying personal statement? For instance, if other parts of my app consistently indicate an interest in one field, would it be preferable if I write about something related to that field?

Asking because I feel that my topic for diversity statement is interesting and that it will likely exceed one page. At this rate, it may be as long as, or even longer than, my personal statement


Keep in mind that personal statements are never read in a vacuum - they are read as part of your entire application all at the same time. So there is no need to address over and over again that you are interested in a particular field. The application as a whole should make sense and represent you in all of the ways that you want it to - so don't write something in the PS that may seem forces.
And also keep in mind that diversity statements are truly optional, so you don't need to have both a PS and a DS if just one makes sense for your app. (Meaning maybe your DS can serves as your PS if you are really into it and aren't crazy about the PS idea?)

KB


Thank you Karen! Yes, that's what I was considering. Also, judging from the personal statements on Spivey's website (http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/all-sample-personal-statements/), we do not necessarily have to explain why we want to go to law school, or am I wrong? I guess I am struggling because of many of the committee's remarks on TLS Personal Statement page, such as this one: http://www.top-law-schools.com/chapter8.html, are related to the candidate's motivation or "fit" for law school.


Unless the PS prompt specifically asks you to address it, you do not need to write about why law (there are a few schools that ask - most don't). Your application as a whole needs to make sense - but the whole focus of the PS does not need to be about why law or be a direct argument why you are a good fit for law school. In my 16 years of reading applications as a member of an admissions committee, there were only a handful of times that I wondered why an applicant was going to law school after reading the entire file -- and it was usually someone who was making a career change or heading in a different path than their education and never addressed that disconnect.
Your PS needs to make sense for law school - it can demonstrate a characteristic/perspective that you may have that is valuable in law school or in the legal profession, but it doesn't need to address "why law."
Also keep in mind that the PS will be read along with the rest of your application, so the path to law school may be demonstrated elsewhere.
Hope that helps!

KB

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mtf612
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby mtf612 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:28 pm

Hey spivey team! Any thoughts on whether we will see any more "wild waitlist movement" this summer?

Made a substance error in a LOCI to a top school, corrected with a new LOCI, and now just want to hear that I had zero chance anyway. I'd rather attribute my impending rejection to a total lack of seats than to my silly mistake :)

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:27 pm

mtf612 wrote:Hey spivey team! Any thoughts on whether we will see any more "wild waitlist movement" this summer?

Made a substance error in a LOCI to a top school, corrected with a new LOCI, and now just want to hear that I had zero chance anyway. I'd rather attribute my impending rejection to a total lack of seats than to my silly mistake :)


Well, I talk to my friends and former colleagues in admissions about this every week. I guess it depends on where the movement is coming from. 165+ is down, and some schools seem content, either in their numbers or takings an LSAT or class size hit this year) and others seem ready to keep admitting. I don't think we will see any more classic waves this summer, but I think we will see scattered admitting up till the very end of August.

I hope this helps!

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freekick
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby freekick » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:47 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
mtf612 wrote:Hey spivey team! Any thoughts on whether we will see any more "wild waitlist movement" this summer?

Made a substance error in a LOCI to a top school, corrected with a new LOCI, and now just want to hear that I had zero chance anyway. I'd rather attribute my impending rejection to a total lack of seats than to my silly mistake :)


Well, I talk to my friends and former colleagues in admissions about this every week. I guess it depends on where the movement is coming from. 165+ is down, and some schools seem content, either in their numbers or takings an LSAT or class size hit this year) and others seem ready to keep admitting. I don't think we will see any more classic waves this summer, but I think we will see scattered admitting up till the very end of August.

I hope this helps!


Thanks for the insight, Mike. This explains why the summer didn't see wild movement and why not every 170+ scorer was in high demand.

EdTheLaywer
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby EdTheLaywer » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:00 pm

If I'm planning on taking the December LSAT, is it better to apply in October/November and ask for my application to be placed on hold until we receive that December LSAT score or not apply until that December LSAT score is in?

dan9257
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby dan9257 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:14 am

-
Last edited by dan9257 on Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kali the Annihilator
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby Kali the Annihilator » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:59 am

Spivey. SPIVEY. Refresh my memory on when and where we are getting drinks, brother.

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tuna_wasabi
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby tuna_wasabi » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:54 pm

KarenButtenbaum wrote:
tuna_wasabi wrote:
KarenButtenbaum wrote:
tuna_wasabi wrote:Spivey,

How important is a unifying personal statement? For instance, if other parts of my app consistently indicate an interest in one field, would it be preferable if I write about something related to that field?

Asking because I feel that my topic for diversity statement is interesting and that it will likely exceed one page. At this rate, it may be as long as, or even longer than, my personal statement


Keep in mind that personal statements are never read in a vacuum - they are read as part of your entire application all at the same time. So there is no need to address over and over again that you are interested in a particular field. The application as a whole should make sense and represent you in all of the ways that you want it to - so don't write something in the PS that may seem forces.
And also keep in mind that diversity statements are truly optional, so you don't need to have both a PS and a DS if just one makes sense for your app. (Meaning maybe your DS can serves as your PS if you are really into it and aren't crazy about the PS idea?)

KB


Thank you Karen! Yes, that's what I was considering. Also, judging from the personal statements on Spivey's website (http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/all-sample-personal-statements/), we do not necessarily have to explain why we want to go to law school, or am I wrong? I guess I am struggling because of many of the committee's remarks on TLS Personal Statement page, such as this one: http://www.top-law-schools.com/chapter8.html, are related to the candidate's motivation or "fit" for law school.


Unless the PS prompt specifically asks you to address it, you do not need to write about why law (there are a few schools that ask - most don't). Your application as a whole needs to make sense - but the whole focus of the PS does not need to be about why law or be a direct argument why you are a good fit for law school. In my 16 years of reading applications as a member of an admissions committee, there were only a handful of times that I wondered why an applicant was going to law school after reading the entire file -- and it was usually someone who was making a career change or heading in a different path than their education and never addressed that disconnect.
Your PS needs to make sense for law school - it can demonstrate a characteristic/perspective that you may have that is valuable in law school or in the legal profession, but it doesn't need to address "why law."
Also keep in mind that the PS will be read along with the rest of your application, so the path to law school may be demonstrated elsewhere.
Hope that helps!

KB


Got it--many thanks for the very helpful answer, Karen!

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twiix
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby twiix » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:11 am

EdTheLaywer wrote:If I'm planning on taking the December LSAT, is it better to apply in October/November and ask for my application to be placed on hold until we receive that December LSAT score or not apply until that December LSAT score is in?


Curious as well even though I'm fairly confident I've seen this asked and answered before. Also dunno how long ago that was, so maybe traditional wisdom has changed?

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:58 am

twiix wrote:
EdTheLaywer wrote:If I'm planning on taking the December LSAT, is it better to apply in October/November and ask for my application to be placed on hold until we receive that December LSAT score or not apply until that December LSAT score is in?


Curious as well even though I'm fairly confident I've seen this asked and answered before. Also dunno how long ago that was, so maybe traditional wisdom has changed?


If you know you are going to apply to that school no matter the LSAT result AND the December test will be your only score, then there is no reason to wait to apply, and you can apply earlier. Your file will not be reviewed at all until there is a valid score, but at least it's in and just waiting for that one piece.
It gets a little more nuanced if you have a score on file and there are several factors that may make someone sway in one direction or another. All things being equal, I generally advise that you make a good first impression with your best and highest score and apply after the December test - even if it puts you later in the process.
You could also ask a school to hold your decision until the December scores, but you should know that they will likely read it beforehand and just hold the final decision, which isn't always what applicants want.

Hope that helps!
KB

EdTheLaywer
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby EdTheLaywer » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:15 am

KarenButtenbaum wrote:
twiix wrote:
EdTheLaywer wrote:If I'm planning on taking the December LSAT, is it better to apply in October/November and ask for my application to be placed on hold until we receive that December LSAT score or not apply until that December LSAT score is in?


Curious as well even though I'm fairly confident I've seen this asked and answered before. Also dunno how long ago that was, so maybe traditional wisdom has changed?


If you know you are going to apply to that school no matter the LSAT result AND the December test will be your only score, then there is no reason to wait to apply, and you can apply earlier. Your file will not be reviewed at all until there is a valid score, but at least it's in and just waiting for that one piece.
It gets a little more nuanced if you have a score on file and there are several factors that may make someone sway in one direction or another. All things being equal, I generally advise that you make a good first impression with your best and highest score and apply after the December test - even if it puts you later in the process.
You could also ask a school to hold your decision until the December scores, but you should know that they will likely read it beforehand and just hold the final decision, which isn't always what applicants want.

Hope that helps!
KB


Yes that helps a lot! Thank you.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:20 am

Kali the Annihilator wrote:Spivey. SPIVEY. Refresh my memory on when and where we are getting drinks, brother.


When you are in Boulder, CO next?

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heyduchess
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby heyduchess » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:48 pm

I don't know if this thread is still kickin', but I have a question! (There's actually a small group of us who want this one answered.)

Is there such thing as too many supplemental essays? For example, if you're submitting a Why X essay and a GPA addendum, is a DS taking it too far?

Thank you!

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:26 pm

heyduchess wrote:I don't know if this thread is still kickin', but I have a question! (There's actually a small group of us who want this one answered.)

Is there such thing as too many supplemental essays? For example, if you're submitting a Why X essay and a GPA addendum, is a DS taking it too far?

Thank you!


For certain. Every additional essay you supply you are creating the admission file readers more work. And they are reading tens of thousands of thousands of pages of application material every year.

Just ask yourself -- does this truly add value to an external source reading that much stuff, or am I doing it for myself to feel proactive and hardworking? What is the "value-add" is a good starting point!

Mike

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WooGirl4Spivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby WooGirl4Spivey » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:54 am

on many WL and strongly considering reapplying

ive seen some posters with last minute acceptances from contacting schools basically on orientation

if one isn't concerned with the financial or logistical issues, what would be the correct and appropriate way to employ this strategy

really appreciate all help

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:36 pm

WooGirl4Spivey wrote:on many WL and strongly considering reapplying

ive seen some posters with last minute acceptances from contacting schools basically on orientation

if one isn't concerned with the financial or logistical issues, what would be the correct and appropriate way to employ this strategy

really appreciate all help


As tempting as it is to do this for you, based on your username, we really can't. It's what we help our clients with and would be unfair to them. But it can't hurt to stay in touch with each office!

Mike


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