Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

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What movie should we all watch at the Spivey Consulting Firm Retreat?

The Town
21
13%
Interstellar
63
40%
Cabin in the Woods
39
25%
Logan
35
22%
 
Total votes: 158

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searching61
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby searching61 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:29 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
searching61 wrote:Hi! Sorry if this has been asked before, but I'm wondering if you can explain the methodology behind the numbers on your LSAT score/applicants per cycle blog posts (like this http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/every- ... ts-change/)

Are these numbers totally accurate / comprehensive as of date of posting? Does LSAC report this? Just trying to get a sense of how to interpret this, thanks!

Ahh, this time a year came earlier than usual. If you did a search of "Spivey Consuting" on here you would see dozens upon dozens of these exact same posts (I'll spare you the time). "Where do they get their data? How do they break the USNWR rankings a day early?" "Surely these are fake" "who are they paying to get an early copy of the magazine" (one of my favorite because the rankings magazine come out a month after the online version), etc. I'll just say a few words so I can copy and paste in a month when we get some new data and share with everyone. because sharing is good :)

We are given the data. As are many people, mostly law schools. There are various entities that aggregate law school and applicant data. If you are applying to law school you are using one right now. We are never given individual data, of course. But we get lots of things a bit early -- LSAT registrants, test-takers, rankings, LSAT bandwidth/geographical/school up or down data starting Dec. We usually tweet it (we tweeted some new breaking Dec LSAT taker data two days ago) and if it is a large set, we put it on our blog. And it is almost always entirely 100% accurate. (or we wouldn't post it).

Trust me when I say that we would never post something we didn't think was 100% credible, because if our numbers weren't spot on it wouldn't really do us or you much good. I'm sure we have miscalculated before, or the data we have gotten has been wrong from the provider at some specific small area like a percentage (because then we get a follow-up email saying actually one of those percentages was wrong) and we quickly update.

Also, you mentioned methodology. Our methodology is we are given the data and post it. That simple. That data is simply aggregated from all test-takers. So it's not like anyone is reverse engineering or creating advanced algorithms for the data. It's simply adding up all of the test takers/applicants with their results etc. We don't do it because, of course, we don't know who all the test-takers are. We are just given it from the entities (can you see I'm not saying names intentionally) that have the aggregate data.

But if you really want to see this question explode. Just wait till law school rankings time :) I may send some people to you for us!


Haha yeah probably should have searched this one first, but thanks for answering in full anyway, very helpful! Of course happy to help with weathering future barrages of this question :wink:

uvd2
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby uvd2 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:04 am

mod edit: spam

dan9257
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby dan9257 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:09 pm

I applied to USC Law with my September score but I am also retaking in Feb. But I am at 75ths for USC and so emailed the admissions that I'd like them to review my file without the updated score. But they told me that they can't do that and will hold my app till the score from the future LSAT is released. But Feb score is released in March, which is too late... What should I do? Is it rude to insist them to review my file with my September score?

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twiix
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby twiix » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:47 pm

dan9257 wrote:I applied to USC Law with my September score but I am also retaking in Feb. But I am at 75ths for USC and so emailed the admissions that I'd like them to review my file without the updated score. But they told me that they can't do that and will hold my app till the score from the future LSAT is released. But Feb score is released in March, which is too late... What should I do? Is it rude to insist them to review my file with my September score?


cancel the lsat, get a decision, then re-register

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:56 pm

dan9257 wrote:I applied to USC Law with my September score but I am also retaking in Feb. But I am at 75ths for USC and so emailed the admissions that I'd like them to review my file without the updated score. But they told me that they can't do that and will hold my app till the score from the future LSAT is released. But Feb score is released in March, which is too late... What should I do? Is it rude to insist them to review my file with my September score?


I'd just try to speak with their dean of admissions. He is a good guy and I suspect hear you out.

needmylsat180
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby needmylsat180 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:41 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
dan9257 wrote:I applied to USC Law with my September score but I am also retaking in Feb. But I am at 75ths for USC and so emailed the admissions that I'd like them to review my file without the updated score. But they told me that they can't do that and will hold my app till the score from the future LSAT is released. But Feb score is released in March, which is too late... What should I do? Is it rude to insist them to review my file with my September score?


I'd just try to speak with their dean of admissions. He is a good guy and I suspect hear you out.


Should I email the dean to try to convince him to view my application now if my future LSAT score is the December one? Or should I just wait? I have a above 75th LSAT for USC but 25th GPA. Thanks Mr. Spivey

ShepherdJoo
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby ShepherdJoo » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:01 pm

Hi Mr. MikeSpivey,

Hope this post finds you well.

How harmful is it to apply late with the december LSAT score vs. apply slightly early with the september LSAT score? I already have an LSAT score on file from September (163), but as it's below the median of many schools I'm applying to, I'm trying to see what would work best in my favor. I have a good GPA to balance out the low LSAT but not by much (3.85). I'd like to maximize my chances of getting scholarship at schools like BU, BC, and with an improved LSAT score I'd also like to see if I could get into some of the lower T-14 schools.

Thanks for your advice!

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:03 pm

ShepherdJoo wrote:Hi Mr. MikeSpivey,

Hope this post finds you well.

How harmful is it to apply late with the december LSAT score vs. apply slightly early with the september LSAT score? I already have an LSAT score on file from September (163), but as it's below the median of many schools I'm applying to, I'm trying to see what would work best in my favor. I have a good GPA to balance out the low LSAT but not by much (3.85). I'd like to maximize my chances of getting scholarship at schools like BU, BC, and with an improved LSAT score I'd also like to see if I could get into some of the lower T-14 schools.

Thanks for your advice!


A higher LSAT in January will outweigh any perceived benefit of a slightly earlier application. General rule of thumb is if you are below median LSAT and you think you will be above median with the December score, wait. You'll make a better first impression if you just wait and apply with a median or above median LSAT.
Good Luck!
KB

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:09 pm

Questions about Personal Statements? I'll be doing a Personal Statement webinar with Chicago Kent on Wednesday! An overview with a Q&A to follow.
Register here:
https://www.kentlaw.iit.edu/admissions/ ... vents/next

If you can't make it, the webinar will be available afterward on the Chicago Kent website.

KB

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:53 am

Hi all,

Because this is, for obvious reasons, our busiest season, I thought this might help. A compilation of many of our blog posts from LSAT, LSAT Motivation, ED, Letters of Rec, Personal Statement, Resumes, Diversity Statement, Interviews, Scholarship Negotiation, Waitlist, Timeline, Chilling Out, and more. I hope this link is super helpful and apologies we are slowish on here this time of year!

Mike

http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/posts-post/

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sodomojo
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby sodomojo » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:45 am

Hi Mike,

In your "Oxymoronic LSAT Advice" blog post, you mention the effect that the (former?) environment of decreased application may have had on the ABA changing reporting procedures and only collecting highest scores - with test takers and applicants once again on the rise, is there any reason to believe the ABA might once again have the luxury of collecting all scores and reverting the policy back in the near future?

Thanks!

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:05 am

sodomojo wrote:Hi Mike,

In your "Oxymoronic LSAT Advice" blog post, you mention the effect that the (former?) environment of decreased application may have had on the ABA changing reporting procedures and only collecting highest scores - with test takers and applicants once again on the rise, is there any reason to believe the ABA might once again have the luxury of collecting all scores and reverting the policy back in the near future?

Thanks!


Seems doubtful for reasons I can't really get into on here but I don't expect it. Then again I'm not the ABA so who knows. Not happening this year!

lowyo
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby lowyo » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:06 pm

lowyo wrote:How will the very large projected increase in applicants affect T-10 admissions this cycle? Would applying early mitigate the increased competitiveness? Also, when will we have the breakdown by LSAT bands?


Bumping in case this was inadvertently missed.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:15 pm

lowyo wrote:
lowyo wrote:How will the very large projected increase in applicants affect T-10 admissions this cycle? Would applying early mitigate the increased competitiveness? Also, when will we have the breakdown by LSAT bands?


Bumping in case this was inadvertently missed.


Hi, sorry about the delay, it's simply that for (1), we really don't know. Generally if more applications then more competition and more qualified competition, but since we have been in a long slide of declining class sizes maybe schools will just try to go back to more seats filled in classrooms? I really don't know, which brings me to (3) I agree this data will paint in the full and really important picture. Mid December has been when we said we think we we will get it and nothing has changed. We will tweet from our @spiveyconsult account the second we do, unless I guess I'm struck by lightening rushing to get the tweet out. Which would really suck.

For (2), we have posted a long podcast on this recently. The short answer is yes in general it doesn't hurt and could possibly help to get applications in earlier (please dear whatever power that be don't ask if this will be a counter-cycle 6,000 times) but I'd always rather a higher lsat than timing. Schools tend to make rooms for people above their median LSAT.

I hope this helps!

Mike

lowyo
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby lowyo » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:58 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
lowyo wrote:
lowyo wrote:How will the very large projected increase in applicants affect T-10 admissions this cycle? Would applying early mitigate the increased competitiveness? Also, when will we have the breakdown by LSAT bands?


Bumping in case this was inadvertently missed.


Hi, sorry about the delay, it's simply that for (1), we really don't know. Generally if more applications then more competition and more qualified competition, but since we have been in a long slide of declining class sizes maybe schools will just try to go back to more seats filled in classrooms? I really don't know, which brings me to (3) I agree this data will paint in the full and really important picture. Mid December has been when we said we think we we will get it and nothing has changed. We will tweet from our @spiveyconsult account the second we do, unless I guess I'm struck by lightening rushing to get the tweet out. Which would really suck.

For (2), we have posted a long podcast on this recently. The short answer is yes in general it doesn't hurt and could possibly help to get applications in earlier (please dear whatever power that be don't ask if this will be a counter-cycle 6,000 times) but I'd always rather a higher lsat than timing. Schools tend to make rooms for people above their median LSAT.

I hope this helps!

Mike


Thank you, this is really helpful! I promise not to ask about countercycles as long as you promise to avoid lightening until January.

Llamas
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby Llamas » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:38 pm

Hello Spivey Team,

I have a question about the GRE. For schools like Northwestern, GULC, Harvard, WUSTL, applicants are required to report any GRE scores from the past 5 years.

If I have an LSAT score that is superior to my GRE, is it worth retaking the GRE so that my GRE percentile improves?

The reason I ask this is because USNWR indicates in their ranking methodology that the GRE medians are factored into rankings. Thus, since I am obliged to report both my GRE and LSAT, I am most certainly a splitter for these schools, in the sense that my LSAT is above the median but my GRE is likely to be far below the median (even though we don't know their medians, I'm fairly confident my GRE would be below it).

Since schools only use the highest score is their medians, would it make sense to retake the GRE so that I don't bring down their hypothetical medians? Or is it the case that if an applicant has an LSAT and a GRE, the LSAT overrides any influence that the GRE may have.

Thank you for your help.

lobsicle
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby lobsicle » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:53 pm

Llamas wrote:Hello Spivey Team,

I have a question about the GRE. For schools like Northwestern, GULC, Harvard, WUSTL, applicants are required to report any GRE scores from the past 5 years.

If I have an LSAT score that is superior to my GRE, is it worth retaking the GRE so that my GRE percentile improves?

The reason I ask this is because USNWR indicates in their ranking methodology that the GRE medians are factored into rankings. Thus, since I am obliged to report both my GRE and LSAT, I am most certainly a splitter for these schools, in the sense that my LSAT is above the median but my GRE is likely to be far below the median (even though we don't know their medians, I'm fairly confident my GRE would be below it).

Since schools only use the highest score is their medians, would it make sense to retake the GRE so that I don't bring down their hypothetical medians? Or is it the case that if an applicant has an LSAT and a GRE, the LSAT overrides any influence that the GRE may have.

Thank you for your help.


Piggybacking off of this, do we happen to know whether USNWR uses the writing score in its rankings? Or just Verbal and Quant?

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april_ludgate
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby april_ludgate » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:59 am

Hi,

There's no boost to applying early to Yale, right? I can spend some time on that 250?

Thanks!

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:12 pm

april_ludgate wrote:Hi,

There's no boost to applying early to Yale, right? I can spend some time on that 250?

Thanks!


Well, you didn't quite define "early" but from historically Yale doesn't appear to start looking at applications until December. So you have at least a month to write 250 words, at least by past cycles :)

Mike

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:12 pm

lobsicle wrote:
Llamas wrote:Hello Spivey Team,

I have a question about the GRE. For schools like Northwestern, GULC, Harvard, WUSTL, applicants are required to report any GRE scores from the past 5 years.

If I have an LSAT score that is superior to my GRE, is it worth retaking the GRE so that my GRE percentile improves?

The reason I ask this is because USNWR indicates in their ranking methodology that the GRE medians are factored into rankings. Thus, since I am obliged to report both my GRE and LSAT, I am most certainly a splitter for these schools, in the sense that my LSAT is above the median but my GRE is likely to be far below the median (even though we don't know their medians, I'm fairly confident my GRE would be below it).

Since schools only use the highest score is their medians, would it make sense to retake the GRE so that I don't bring down their hypothetical medians? Or is it the case that if an applicant has an LSAT and a GRE, the LSAT overrides any influence that the GRE may have.

Thank you for your help.


Piggybacking off of this, do we happen to know whether USNWR uses the writing score in its rankings? Or just Verbal and Quant?


USNWR does not use writing samples in the rankings.

lobsicle
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby lobsicle » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:58 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
lobsicle wrote:
Llamas wrote:Hello Spivey Team,

I have a question about the GRE. For schools like Northwestern, GULC, Harvard, WUSTL, applicants are required to report any GRE scores from the past 5 years.

If I have an LSAT score that is superior to my GRE, is it worth retaking the GRE so that my GRE percentile improves?

The reason I ask this is because USNWR indicates in their ranking methodology that the GRE medians are factored into rankings. Thus, since I am obliged to report both my GRE and LSAT, I am most certainly a splitter for these schools, in the sense that my LSAT is above the median but my GRE is likely to be far below the median (even though we don't know their medians, I'm fairly confident my GRE would be below it).

Since schools only use the highest score is their medians, would it make sense to retake the GRE so that I don't bring down their hypothetical medians? Or is it the case that if an applicant has an LSAT and a GRE, the LSAT overrides any influence that the GRE may have.

Thank you for your help.


Piggybacking off of this, do we happen to know whether USNWR uses the writing score in its rankings? Or just Verbal and Quant?


USNWR does not use writing samples in the rankings.


Thanks for the reply! Just to be clear, we're talking about the GRE writing scores, not the LSAT writing samples, correct? I know the writing samples aren't factored in, but didn't know if the GRE writing scores were.

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april_ludgate
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby april_ludgate » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:20 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
april_ludgate wrote:Hi,

There's no boost to applying early to Yale, right? I can spend some time on that 250?

Thanks!


Well, you didn't quite define "early" but from historically Yale doesn't appear to start looking at applications until December. So you have at least a month to write 250 words, at least by past cycles :)

Mike


Thanks so much! And yes, by early I meant Pre-December

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:13 pm

Llamas wrote:Hello Spivey Team,

I have a question about the GRE. For schools like Northwestern, GULC, Harvard, WUSTL, applicants are required to report any GRE scores from the past 5 years.

If I have an LSAT score that is superior to my GRE, is it worth retaking the GRE so that my GRE percentile improves?

The reason I ask this is because USNWR indicates in their ranking methodology that the GRE medians are factored into rankings. Thus, since I am obliged to report both my GRE and LSAT, I am most certainly a splitter for these schools, in the sense that my LSAT is above the median but my GRE is likely to be far below the median (even though we don't know their medians, I'm fairly confident my GRE would be below it).

Since schools only use the highest score is their medians, would it make sense to retake the GRE so that I don't bring down their hypothetical medians? Or is it the case that if an applicant has an LSAT and a GRE, the LSAT overrides any influence that the GRE may have.

Thank you for your help.


We actually aren't even sure of schools yet know the answer to this question "are both GRE/LSAT reported to USNWR" or "just LSAT" or "just highest percentile from the two" but we are working on it. I guess someone could call USNWR and ask. In fact, I may have someone in mind to do just that :) Will work at it for you all!

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Hennessy
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby Hennessy » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:16 am

Hi Spivey and team,

Mike I think we've already talked about this, but I just wanted to confirm:

when repplaying, DO use the same LORs, do NOT use the same PS or Why X essay, correct?

Thanks, luv y'all!

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:09 am

HennessyVSOP wrote:Hi Spivey and team,

Mike I think we've already talked about this, but I just wanted to confirm:

when repplaying, DO use the same LORs, do NOT use the same PS or Why X essay, correct?

Thanks, luv y'all!


Well the Why should probably be a variation of your first Why, but edited and updated. Same LOR and new PS!


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