Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

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What movie should we all watch at the Spivey Consulting Firm Retreat?

The Town
12
12%
Interstellar
40
39%
Cabin in the Woods
25
25%
Logan
25
25%
 
Total votes: 102

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Nightwing
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby Nightwing » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:46 pm

whodareswins wrote:Why does this appear to be a rough cycle in terms of waitlists, low scholarship offers, etc.? Shouldn't we expect the opposite given the low number of 165+ LSAT scores?


+1

Have a couple ideas, but need help making sense of this.

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Future Ex-Engineer
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby Future Ex-Engineer » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:46 pm

Nightwing wrote:
whodareswins wrote:Why does this appear to be a rough cycle in terms of waitlists, low scholarship offers, etc.? Shouldn't we expect the opposite given the low number of 165+ LSAT scores?


+1

Have a couple ideas, but need help making sense of this.


Anecdotal, but it might just be confirmation bias. For example, I'm in at everywhere NYU and down with money (interview with Chicago next week), but I only have a 168. Still haven't heard from H or S. It's been a great cycle for me so far

Gabriel_is_Satan
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby Gabriel_is_Satan » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:33 am

mrgstephe wrote:
Nightwing wrote:
whodareswins wrote:Why does this appear to be a rough cycle in terms of waitlists, low scholarship offers, etc.? Shouldn't we expect the opposite given the low number of 165+ LSAT scores?


+1

Have a couple ideas, but need help making sense of this.


Anecdotal, but it might just be confirmation bias. For example, I'm in at everywhere NYU and down with money (interview with Chicago next week), but I only have a 168. Still haven't heard from H or S. It's been a great cycle for me so far


I have no anecdotal info to contribute, but this does make sense to me. If there are less 171+ (and there seem to be a whole lot less of 'em), those who did get 171+ should have an easier time getting in and getting money.

Now it may be that schools have been holding off, given what they were used to in the last years. This would imply a slow cycle, and a good (or relatively better than usual, at least) cycle for good applicants who apply late.

Then again, I may be completely overthinking all of this ...

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appind
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby appind » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:58 am

Gabriel_is_Satan wrote:
mrgstephe wrote:
Nightwing wrote:
whodareswins wrote:Why does this appear to be a rough cycle in terms of waitlists, low scholarship offers, etc.? Shouldn't we expect the opposite given the low number of 165+ LSAT scores?


+1

Have a couple ideas, but need help making sense of this.


Anecdotal, but it might just be confirmation bias. For example, I'm in at everywhere NYU and down with money (interview with Chicago next week), but I only have a 168. Still haven't heard from H or S. It's been a great cycle for me so far


I have no anecdotal info to contribute, but this does make sense to me. If there are less 171+ (and there seem to be a whole lot less of 'em), those who did get 171+ should have an easier time getting in and getting money.

Now it may be that schools have been holding off, given what they were used to in the last years. This would imply a slow cycle, and a good (or relatively better than usual, at least) cycle for good applicants who apply late.

Then again, I may be completely overthinking all of this ...


i think 171+ may have an easier time but it won't show in the numbers that LS put out. because there are are less 171+ but still enough for HYS to be keep their medians. so any advantage that this cycle may offer may not show in median/25/75 numbers.

gwillygecko
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby gwillygecko » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:50 pm

appind wrote:
Gabriel_is_Satan wrote:
mrgstephe wrote:
Nightwing wrote:
whodareswins wrote:Why does this appear to be a rough cycle in terms of waitlists, low scholarship offers, etc.? Shouldn't we expect the opposite given the low number of 165+ LSAT scores?


+1

Have a couple ideas, but need help making sense of this.


Anecdotal, but it might just be confirmation bias. For example, I'm in at everywhere NYU and down with money (interview with Chicago next week), but I only have a 168. Still haven't heard from H or S. It's been a great cycle for me so far


I have no anecdotal info to contribute, but this does make sense to me. If there are less 171+ (and there seem to be a whole lot less of 'em), those who did get 171+ should have an easier time getting in and getting money.

Now it may be that schools have been holding off, given what they were used to in the last years. This would imply a slow cycle, and a good (or relatively better than usual, at least) cycle for good applicants who apply late.

Then again, I may be completely overthinking all of this ...


i think 171+ may have an easier time but it won't show in the numbers that LS put out. because there are are less 171+ but still enough for HYS to be keep their medians. so any advantage that this cycle may offer may not show in median/25/75 numbers.


year on year:
171+ this year:1538 last year(approx.):1896
172+ this year:1166 last year:1451
173+ this year:893 last year:1158


so there's as many 172+ this year as there were 173+ last year, and 89 more 171+s than 172+s last year

fwiw, i got wl at duke with a 171

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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby Shangrilala » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:07 am

Hello,

Not sure whether I can ask a question like this here but...
Will writing an addendum actually hurt the application someway?
I have weak eyes and I wrote about it, but I wonder the adcom ppl will think I cannot endure the hard work in law school then...should I stop submitting this addendum?
I would like to hear honest opinion from adcom ppl but don't know where to ask so...

Thank you

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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby Npret » Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:42 am

Hi Spivey

There have been posts semi regularly about the outcomes of grads after their first biglaw job. I have lately started to see that more people than I thought just leave law entirely after 8-10 years.

Do you know of any source that has compuled this data that includes career paths of lawyers after their first job? I thought as former admission counselors you might know of data relating to career paths that we haven't seen.

I find it hard to believe that no one is tracking what happens to law grads but that seems to be the case.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:06 pm

Npret wrote:Hi Spivey

There have been posts semi regularly about the outcomes of grads after their first biglaw job. I have lately started to see that more people than I thought just leave law entirely after 8-10 years.

Do you know of any source that has compuled this data that includes career paths of lawyers after their first job? I thought as former admission counselors you might know of data relating to career paths that we haven't seen.

I find it hard to believe that no one is tracking what happens to law grads but that seems to be the case.


NALP probably does. Coincidentally, I was just at a conference of hiring partners of mostly BigLaw and they were talking about just this -- that the vast majority at minimum leave firm life.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:12 pm

whodareswins wrote:Why does this appear to be a rough cycle in terms of waitlists, low scholarship offers, etc.? Shouldn't we expect the opposite given the low number of 165+ LSAT scores?


It ultimately should look a lot like last year -- but just slower paced that last year. The reason it is slower paced is that the data has been less consistent within this cycle, changing somewhat rapidly, and thus many schools have been slower. Which makes a lot of sense to me.

I would also note if you are comparing outcomes versus last cycle make sure it is an apples to apples comparison by date, not comparing now this cycle versus the end of last cycle. And that LSN is a tiny fraction of the entire applicant pool.

Finally, schools are really trying to get a hold of the scholarship arms race, as many schools have been in the red for a good while now. I tweeted something along these lines last week but the price of providing a legal education per student has gone up recently, AND there has been more merit scholarship given out than ever before. This isn't sustainable.

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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby whodareswins » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:02 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
whodareswins wrote:Why does this appear to be a rough cycle in terms of waitlists, low scholarship offers, etc.? Shouldn't we expect the opposite given the low number of 165+ LSAT scores?


It ultimately should look a lot like last year -- but just slower paced that last year. The reason it is slower paced is that the data has been less consistent within this cycle, changing somewhat rapidly, and thus many schools have been slower. Which makes a lot of sense to me.

I would also note if you are comparing outcomes versus last cycle make sure it is an apples to apples comparison by date, not comparing now this cycle versus the end of last cycle. And that LSN is a tiny fraction of the entire applicant pool.

Finally, schools are really trying to get a hold of the scholarship arms race, as many schools have been in the red for a good while now. I tweeted something along these lines last week but the price of providing a legal education per student has gone up recently, AND there has been more merit scholarship given out than ever before. This isn't sustainable.



Thank you for the response; that makes sense.

Your response got me wondering: do you think the scholarship offers on LSN are post-negotiation, or just the initial offer? I wonder how many folks go back and update their offers for the sake of making the information more accurate.

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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby Kali the Annihilator » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:04 pm

Spivey. SPIVEY. I haven't harassed you in a while. How ya been, fam?

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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby SybillAnnDorsett » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:32 pm

If this has been asked and answered, stop me now!
but hi Spivey, I have a quick ? for ya:

do schools know whether you're on waitlists at other places? I'm curious about NYU, in particular. I am on three waitlists right now and was willing to wait it out all summer just for the hell of it, but if withdrawing would look good to NYU, I'd be open to it.

Thanks!

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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:59 am

Kali the Annihilator wrote:Spivey. SPIVEY. I haven't harassed you in a while. How ya been, fam?


It has been awhile. I'm good. I'm with a law school dean and a bunch of hiring partners today -- who wants a job? :)

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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:00 am

mm2368 wrote:If this has been asked and answered, stop me now!
but hi Spivey, I have a quick ? for ya:

do schools know whether you're on waitlists at other places? I'm curious about NYU, in particular. I am on three waitlists right now and was willing to wait it out all summer just for the hell of it, but if withdrawing would look good to NYU, I'd be open to it.

Thanks!


Only if you tell them!

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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby Npret » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:18 am

MikeSpivey wrote:
Kali the Annihilator wrote:Spivey. SPIVEY. I haven't harassed you in a while. How ya been, fam?


It has been awhile. I'm good. I'm with a law school dean and a bunch of hiring partners today -- who wants a job? :)


I've been reading that law firms may finally be focusing on saving money by improving associate retention. I've seen consultants promoting themselves as experts on employee retention- but haven't seen anyone who know what they are talking about. Using behavioral interviews to find associates doesn't change the nature of the job.

We have a fantastic thread with unvarnished discussion of biglaw should they need any insight into the associate view of biglaw.
It's called So you want to be a NY corporate lawyer.
You are probably familiar with it.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:32 am

Rankings are here! We will tweet the link ASAP. Meanwhile I'm trying to tweet what we got right now Twitter is @SpiveyConsult

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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby AJordan » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:00 am

Cue the GULC meltdown.

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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby ashrice13 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:26 am

MikeSpivey wrote:Rankings are here! We will tweet the link ASAP. Meanwhile I'm trying to tweet what we got right now Twitter is @SpiveyConsult

Yay! Honestly - thank you so much for always taking the time to update and inform on TLS. It means a lot! We really appreciate

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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby theboringest » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:43 am

MikeSpivey wrote:who wants a job? :)

I mean, if you insist...

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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby hinton2014 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:01 pm

KarenButtenbaum wrote:
hinton2014 wrote:Hi Spivey Team! Thanks for what you're doing. I just had a quick question regarding whether I should write an addendum or not. Fwiw, my target school is Vanderbilt. Anyways, I went to my current university right after i graduated high school. In my time here, I've managed to maintain a 3.95 university GPA. However, while in HS I took some college courses and as a senior I misread the syllabus of a class and missed the final and did not turn in the final paper which resulted in a D. As you know, this tends to lower my LSDAS GPA about .08. I retook the course at my current university and got an A. Should I write an addendum to explain this, or will it matter? I completed less than 20 hours outside of my current university.


In the grand scheme of things, this seems rather inconsequential since your academic record since this time is quite strong.. They will get copies of your transcripts, so they will see all of your academic work, so if you really want them to know about this mistake, I would suggest keeping it super short - like three sentences.

KB


Awesome, thank you! Will the admissions staff take this into account seeing that this happened while I was in high school at a local community college and then once I started at my undergrad institution I was extremely strong earning high honors and Beta Gamma Sigma membership?

Legallylawyer2020
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby Legallylawyer2020 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:41 pm

Hi Spivey!

Thanks for everything you do. I have a general question about the importance of work experience. My schools were all holding for my feb lsat score and received it last Wednesday. Since then I've been admitted to 7 schools- 4 with substantial scholarships, 1 with no scholarship and 2 TTT I'm not considering in light of the T1 acceptances. Anyway, my lsat was decent (around 90th percentile) but my UGPA was 3.0. I'm 7 years out of undergrad though and have a Masters degree and considerable work experience with a very very well known/respected company. I feel I'm over performing my numbers and wondering if you have a comment on the importance of work experience in admissions me whether it's becoming more integral to the process or not.

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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby mudiverse » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:24 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
whodareswins wrote:Why does this appear to be a rough cycle in terms of waitlists, low scholarship offers, etc.? Shouldn't we expect the opposite given the low number of 165+ LSAT scores?


It ultimately should look a lot like last year -- but just slower paced that last year. The reason it is slower paced is that the data has been less consistent within this cycle, changing somewhat rapidly, and thus many schools have been slower. Which makes a lot of sense to me.

I would also note if you are comparing outcomes versus last cycle make sure it is an apples to apples comparison by date, not comparing now this cycle versus the end of last cycle. And that LSN is a tiny fraction of the entire applicant pool.

Finally, schools are really trying to get a hold of the scholarship arms race, as many schools have been in the red for a good while now. I tweeted something along these lines last week but the price of providing a legal education per student has gone up recently, AND there has been more merit scholarship given out than ever before. This isn't sustainable.


I have to ask - why is the price of providing legal education higher?

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:25 am

mudiverse wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
whodareswins wrote:Why does this appear to be a rough cycle in terms of waitlists, low scholarship offers, etc.? Shouldn't we expect the opposite given the low number of 165+ LSAT scores?


It ultimately should look a lot like last year -- but just slower paced that last year. The reason it is slower paced is that the data has been less consistent within this cycle, changing somewhat rapidly, and thus many schools have been slower. Which makes a lot of sense to me.

I would also note if you are comparing outcomes versus last cycle make sure it is an apples to apples comparison by date, not comparing now this cycle versus the end of last cycle. And that LSN is a tiny fraction of the entire applicant pool.

Finally, schools are really trying to get a hold of the scholarship arms race, as many schools have been in the red for a good while now. I tweeted something along these lines last week but the price of providing a legal education per student has gone up recently, AND there has been more merit scholarship given out than ever before. This isn't sustainable.


I have to ask - why is the price of providing legal education higher?


Among other factors, like faculty salary increases, class sizes per law school are l=very low right now (good for you all for certain), which means the cost per student to provide legal education is greater.

hcss11
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby hcss11 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:15 pm

Hi Mike,

Frequent lurker on this thread here—I really respect the work you do on the forums.

I have a question mainly about contextual admissions metrics: I'm a URM (AA, LGBT) with a 3.4 coming from a state school. Since I was a transfer student with my GPA from my original school being a 2.9, I estimate LSAC will average my overall GPA to a 3.1 (am I right about this?).

Like many on these boards, I want to attend a top 13 program. With this in mind, I'm studying extremely hard for the LSAT, with the the intent to utilize my hybrid career (startup + politics/policy/nonprofit boards—my LinkedIn profile is in your DM) to leverage a legal career at the intersection of social good and innovation. After having done a good bit of research, I seem to be seeing that URMs, even with below-median stats in one area (mine would be my GPA), can still gain admission to these schools if their remaining stat, the LSAT, is at or above median for the school they want to attend.

Is this true? I'm asking you specifically since you're an admissions counselor and I'm not, but I would love some clarity in this area if you can provide it. Thanks a bunch and I hope to hear from you.

chrysippusofsoli
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Postby chrysippusofsoli » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:21 pm

Hi Spivey Crew, thanks for doing all this! I've learned a great deal just reading through your replies on this thread.

Just curious, do you have any thoughts as to how Harvard's recent decision to accept the GRE will affect admissions from next cycle onward? E.g. Do you see more schools following HLS' lead in the short term? Does this signal a more holistic admissions process for HLS/more emphasis on uGPA?

Thanks!


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