THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019 Forum

[DalRock]

For those who passed, roughly how many practice MEEs did you complete (timed or untimed). I'm aware practice is key, but I am wondering if I should just do a full deep review this weekend instead. Thanks.

Hi there,

Personally, I found practice MEE gave a decreasing return on investment. Once you've done a bunch, you're better off focusing on MBEs. I didn't actually write that many MEEs and, instead, just studied the Themis model answers (I highlighted them, marked them up and deleted all fact-specific parts). I studied those hard, but didn't practice the answers as such.

Another thing is that you will inevitably get MEE questions on exam day that you've never seen before and that you'll need to BS your way through. Two of my six MEEs were completely out of the blue and I had to make up the answers. I ended up doing really well because I was able to just keep applying facts to (what I assumed was) the law and I just kept writing. In other words, it's not so much the content as it is the structure and form and the amount. I guess if you're comfortable with that, then you should be ok. But I wouldn't recommend practicing MEEs at the expense of MBEs.

Good luck!

This ^

I prepared MEE with only 5% of my entire prep when I took my first UBE exam at NY last July 2018 and devoted my time 95% with the MBE. I just read the MEE model answers and did zero (0) practice with MEE and MPT. What I did in MEE in every questions and subquestions was:

QUESTION 1a:

I-(ssue) - The issue is whether.....
C-(onclusion) - Yes, the is .... (short answer to the issue - one sentence)
R-(ule) - Under the Uniform Prudent Investor Act (UPIA), .......
A-(nalysis) - Here, X is liable to the beneficiary because..... facts, facts, facts & facts with rule, rule, rule & rule
C-(onclusion) - Because X..... therefore, ......

QUESTION 1b:

I-(ssue) - The issue is whether.....
C-(onclusion) - Yes, the is .... (short answer to the issue)
R-(ule) - Under the Uniform Prudent Investor Act (UPIA).......
A-(nalysis) - Here, X is liable to the beneficiary because.....
C-(onclusion) - Because X..... therefore, ......

QUESTION 2a:

I-(ssue) - The issue is whether.....
C-(onclusion) - Yes, the is .... (short answer to the issue)
R-(ule) - Under the Uniform Prudent Investor Act (UPIA).......
A-(nalysis) - Here, X is liable to the beneficiary because.....
C-(onclusion) - Because X..... therefore, ......

QUESTION 2b:

I-(ssue) - The issue is whether.....
C-(onclusion) - Yes, the is .... (short answer to the issue)
R-(ule) - Under the Uniform Prudent Investor Act (UPIA).......
A-(nalysis) - Here, X is liable to the beneficiary because.....
C-(onclusion) - Because X..... therefore, ......

QUESTION 3a:

I-(ssue) - The issue is whether.....
C-(onclusion) - Yes, the is .... (short answer to the issue)
R-(ule) - Under the Uniform Prudent Investor Act (UPIA).......
A-(nalysis) - Here, X is liable to the beneficiary because.....
C-(onclusion) - Because X..... therefore, ......

QUESTION 3b:

I-(ssue) - The issue is whether.....
C-(onclusion) - Yes, the is .... (short answer to the issue)
R-(ule) - Under the Uniform Prudent Investor Act (UPIA).......
A-(nalysis) - Here, X is liable to the beneficiary because.....
C-(onclusion) - Because X..... therefore, ......

I bombed MPT question 2 (I only wrote 3 paragraphs) but still managed to passed the exam (I hand wrote the MEE).

Organization is the key.

Good luck!

[Lancair]

Albany takers - if you are standing around in the cold tomorrow morning on the Empire State Plaza wondering where the actual exam hall is, you need to take a set of stairs down from the plaza to the "concourse" level - these are indicated on the various maps of the capitol complex on the street. There isn't actually any signage on the street level to the "Convention Center" that I could see (unhelpfully). Once you get down there, there are signs to the convention center on the concourse level.

[washington_mystics]

Well. I can't say that went how I expected it to go. I thought MPT was my strength going in. MPT #1 wasn't too bad, MPT #2 - got formatting down and some analysis but didnt have time to conclude or delete my outline notes from underneath my memorandum. I'm not sure if the examiners are going to count those as part of my answer, but can't bode well if they do. MEEs seemed straightford until reflecting afterwards: applied the wrong tort theory, missing the crim pro section and the child support exception for creditors. MBE was a mixed bag.

I'll update in 80 days, enjoy a little siesta.

Stats:
Overall Themis MBE - 63%, 2200 PQs (I frontloaded most of the mix sets)
Milestone #1 - 71%
Milestone #2 - 54%
Milestone #3 - 122/200
Milestone #4 - 70/100
Essays: 4/6 on average (grader seemed pretty lenient)

+
Overall Adaptibar MBE: 75%, 2000 PQs

[Houstonttt]

Any feedback about the MBE for Themis taker?

[ST0724]

MBE for themis is really really good, i was hitting about 79 2 weeks ago before CA today, so just focus on the trigger words they make clear and the patterns. Also I cannot stress this enough, FOCUS ON THE OUTLINES AND THE LECTURES

[DodgerBlues1991]

Any feedback about the MBE for Themis taker?

I'm a repeat taker, it wasn't as bad as last July, but still hard, but def easier than July

[yennem]

Any feedback about the MBE for Themis taker?

I thought afternoon was brutal

[sg.cambs]

Any feedback about the MBE for Themis taker?

I thought afternoon was brutal

Agreed. Most questions felt like an educated guess between two answers.

[Lancair]

I thought it was fine - felt like an overall similar level of difficulty to the Themis PQs. Agree there were a few tricky Qs - but the difficulty was less in obscure rules but unhelpful answer choices. Didn’t think there was a big difference between the morning or the answer sessions.

[KunAgnis]

Well. I can't say that went how I expected it to go. I thought MPT was my strength going in. MPT #1 wasn't too bad, MPT #2 - got formatting down and some analysis but didnt have time to conclude or delete my outline notes from underneath my memorandum. I'm not sure if the examiners are going to count those as part of my answer, but can't bode well if they do. MEEs seemed straightford until reflecting afterwards: applied the wrong tort theory, missing the crim pro section and the child support exception for creditors. MBE was a mixed bag.

Overall Adaptibar MBE: 75%, 2000 PQs

Did not know about the child support exception. Well, that's to be expected since I chose to study Wills over Trusts. Ugh. What do you mean by you "applied the wrong tort theory?" What theory did you apply, and what theory did you think it should have been?

[KunAgnis]

Well. I can't say that went how I expected it to go. I thought MPT was my strength going in. MPT #1 wasn't too bad, MPT #2 - got formatting down and some analysis but didnt have time to conclude or delete my outline notes from underneath my memorandum. I'm not sure if the examiners are going to count those as part of my answer, but can't bode well if they do. MEEs seemed straightford until reflecting afterwards: applied the wrong tort theory, missing the crim pro section and the child support exception for creditors. MBE was a mixed bag.

Overall Adaptibar MBE: 75%, 2000 PQs

Did not know about the child support exception. Well, that's to be expected since I chose to study Wills over Trusts. Ugh. What do you mean by you "applied the wrong tort theory?" What theory did you apply, and what theory did you think it should have been?

I've heard people say they applied negligence per se, but there wasn't a statute.. I didn't do that, but I see how they could have gotten mixed up.

I'm confused now - do you mean the 1st MEE essay? Because there wasn't a statute that was violated in that fact pattern . . .

[lawgirl3521]

Well. I can't say that went how I expected it to go. I thought MPT was my strength going in. MPT #1 wasn't too bad, MPT #2 - got formatting down and some analysis but didnt have time to conclude or delete my outline notes from underneath my memorandum. I'm not sure if the examiners are going to count those as part of my answer, but can't bode well if they do. MEEs seemed straightford until reflecting afterwards: applied the wrong tort theory, missing the crim pro section and the child support exception for creditors. MBE was a mixed bag.

Overall Adaptibar MBE: 75%, 2000 PQs

Did not know about the child support exception. Well, that's to be expected since I chose to study Wills over Trusts. Ugh. What do you mean by you "applied the wrong tort theory?" What theory did you apply, and what theory did you think it should have been?

I've heard people say they applied negligence per se, but there wasn't a statute.. I didn't do that, but I see how they could have gotten mixed up.

I'm confused now - do you mean the 1st MEE essay? Because there wasn't a statute that was violated in that fact pattern . . .

Hello - been following this thread for a long time - the first MEE was torts - there was not a negligence per se issue, it was a res ipsa issue - it was a straight negligence question, with res ipsa and joint and several liability issues - pretty straightforward, imo

[KunAgnis]

Hello - been following this thread for a long time - the first MEE was torts - there was not a negligence per se issue, it was a res ipsa issue - it was a straight negligence question, with res ipsa and joint and several liability issues - pretty straightforward, imo

That's what I mean, LOL. I agree with you there. It was very straightforward and easy, but for some reason I wrote a shit ton on that essay. Same with the essay on the criminal law one.

[lawgirl3521]

Hello - been following this thread for a long time - the first MEE was torts - there was not a negligence per se issue, it was a res ipsa issue - it was a straight negligence question, with res ipsa and joint and several liability issues - pretty straightforward, imo

That's what I mean, LOL. I agree with you there. It was very straightforward and easy, but for some reason I wrote a shit ton on that essay. Same with the essay on the criminal law one.

I here you, lol, I was one of the people who left feeling great about the essays - especially that one - then woke up on Wednesday morning having realized I kept writing negligence per se while using the elements of res ipsa - never had any problem confusing those before, ha!

[lawboyesq]

So I'm curious, what did everyone think of the partnerships/corporations question on the MEE?

[washington_mystics]

So I'm curious, what did everyone think of the partnerships/corporations question on the MEE?

Straightforward but a lot of red herrings.

Re: Torts, I thought I missed an NPS issue and used RIL but seems general consensus is that was correct

[KunAgnis]

Anyone think the MPTs were a joke? I mean, I guess the second one was no snack, but the first one was a complete joke. I literally finished and just scratched my head and used the rest of the time to polish the formatting/structure. (If anyone is confused by me saying 1st and 2nd, I mean the tort question and the injunction question.)

[Houstonttt]

The Preliminary injunction was 1 or 2!!
Coz Texas taker we got only one

[lawgirl3521]

Anyone think the MPTs were a joke? I mean, I guess the second one was no snack, but the first one was a complete joke. I literally finished and just scratched my head and used the rest of the time to polish the formatting/structure. (If anyone is confused by me saying 1st and 2nd, I mean the tort question and the injunction question.)

The injunction question was given first where I took, the torts one was second.

I thought the MEEs were way to straightforward - and it sounds like most other people did too which makes me wonder how essays are graded / scaled etc when everyone pretty much kills them?

[lawgirl3521]

I am interested in finding out how the MEE is graded if the majority of takers found the questions very straightforward and were able to spot and address all of the issues? What does that do to the curve?

[John---]

I ran out of time and completely guessed the 15 last questions in the p.m. MBE session. Was getting between 65 and 70% in the Themis mixed questions. I am convinced I failed. But I have a little hope the MEE section might be able to save me. Any thoughts?

[masonjarrr]

I ran out of time and completely guessed the 15 last questions in the p.m. MBE session. Was getting between 65 and 70% in the Themis mixed questions. I am convinced I failed. But I have a little hope the MEE section might be able to save me. Any thoughts?

Unlike CA, where 5 essays amount to 37% of the grade only, you have a pretty good chance if you did even average on MEEs, assuming your writing portion is like 65% of the grade or something

[John---]

I ran out of time and completely guessed the 15 last questions in the p.m. MBE session. Was getting between 65 and 70% in the Themis mixed questions. I am convinced I failed. But I have a little hope the MEE section might be able to save me. Any thoughts?

Unlike CA, where 5 essays amount to 37% of the grade only, you have a pretty good chance if you did even average on MEEs, assuming your writing portion is like 65% of the grade or something

Thank you for the optimistic opinion!

[DepressedWorkerBee]

July 2019 Bar taker here - Themis opens up for us tomorrow!

I’ve got a really slow last semester - so I wanted to try and get started a bit early - not diving head into the whole course (want to avoid burnout), but wanted to start a few things now slowly.

Any advice for how to use Themis and get started before the suggest start day of May 20? Also have S&T, Critical Flash Cards, and Adaptibar.

Appreciate any advice!

[lawgirl3521]

July 2019 Bar taker here - Themis opens up for us tomorrow!

I’ve got a really slow last semester - so I wanted to try and get started a bit early - not diving head into the whole course (want to avoid burnout), but wanted to start a few things now slowly.

Any advice for how to use Themis and get started before the suggest start day of May 20? Also have S&T, Critical Flash Cards, and Adaptibar.

Appreciate any advice!

Hi there - I personally found the Themis lectures to be useless and a waste of time, although I am basically a 100% visual learner. I would recommend concentrating on the Themis final review outlines, Adaptibar, and Critical Pass - I consistently scored in the low 80s on the MBE by the end using only CP and Adaptibar for MBE.

I did use S&T a bit, but didn't find it particularly helpful for my learning style, although I know tons of people loved it. I did, however, find the JD Advising MBE Guide extremely helpful for nuanced topics - and they guarantee a 7 point increase after going through the guide (which they equate to 1 extra point per MBE subject); I actually saw a 9 point increase after going through the guide, so it was def worth it for me. I also used Studicata attack outlines for the MEE topics and felt extremely well prepared on essays - never scored lower than a 7/10 on Themis graded essays and was able to score 3 10/10s before the actual bar exam. I also never made any of my own outlines, but I didn't outline during law school either - it's just not my thing, I prefer flashcards.

Also, I was frequently told that the MPT was no big deal and not to waste time on it, but I personally did the opposite and am glad I did. I only ended up writing out 2 full MPTs on my own, but I also did the Themis graded MPT - so I guess 3 full MPTs in all. The graded Themis MPT is where I scored one of my 10/10s. I worked my ass off to grab points on the essays because I don't trust practice MBE scores or OPE scores. For an MPT study method, I would suggest looking over every single type/combo/structure of MPT you can get your hands on and then outlining at least 20 from beginning to end. I was so glad I put in the time I did on the MPT because when the actual bar exam rolled around, I had developed a dedicated method of organizing the loads of information so that I was able to fit in all of the fact/arguments I wanted to include and still had about 3 minutes to spare to revise on each question. I looked at it like every single point counts, so grab them wherever and whenever you can.

Overall Themis was great, imo. My best piece of advice would be to listen to yourself and stick to how you learn best - tune out the noise on what you should or shouldn't do and just trust yourself and don't look back. You've got this.