THEMIS DISCUSSION - FEBRUARY 2019 Forum

[ubebarstudying]

I’m scoring around 60% on contacts as well. Not my best subject. I’m starting property this week so hopefully those scores are better.

You still have plenty of time my friend!

[Psmith0717]

Is anyone finding the essay writing workshops helpful? I feel like they are a waste of time

[ubebarstudying]

Hi all, I know it's early but for those starting Themis now (eg full-time workers, foreign applicants etc), feel free to discuss here. I started studying this time last year for NY Feb 2018 and passed (getting admitted soon!)

Good luck and happy studying! I'm happy to answer any questions you may have...

Congratulations, Neil! Awesome to hear! Congrats on the moderatorship* as well!

*may have made this word up(?)

[BarpreppinNY]

Hey everyone,

I'm new here. I sat for the bar in July/took Themis. I got a 257/9 points shy of the pass score in NY. I am finding this immensely painful to do again and dont know what I should do precisely because I was so close to passing and I'm not sure what I should maybe spend extra time on this time around. I have all the lecture handouts filled out from the summer so I've been re-listening at accelerated speed and my assessments suggest that I'm doing fine listening to lectures in that manner. So, any tips or suggestions on how to not drive myself insane and up my score would be incredibly greatly appreciated.

...Seriously, this is painful.

[gurya123]

I think this is a good group/thread to become apart of. I was a July Themis taker and actively participated in the thread. It really helped me mentally for the exam and to discuss with other bar takers. I ended up passing while working full time under very stressful conditions. Good luck to you all! If you need any advice please let me know.

So true! I also found the Themis Feb 18 forum very helpful. It's good to be able to vent and get support from others who've gone through it already. I was also full-time working and needed people to talk to.

Thanks for the kind offer to help too!

Hi,
Thanks for your feedback. Yes this forum is helpful.
How did you prepare for MBE? do you have questions to practice? could you please send me at sawabakhan@yahoo.com
2. How did you prepare for essays?

Appreciate it.
gur

[Neilt001]

I think this is a good group/thread to become apart of. I was a July Themis taker and actively participated in the thread. It really helped me mentally for the exam and to discuss with other bar takers. I ended up passing while working full time under very stressful conditions. Good luck to you all! If you need any advice please let me know.

So true! I also found the Themis Feb 18 forum very helpful. It's good to be able to vent and get support from others who've gone through it already. I was also full-time working and needed people to talk to.

Thanks for the kind offer to help too!

Hi,
Thanks for your feedback. Yes this forum is helpful.
How did you prepare for MBE? do you have questions to practice? could you please send me at sawabakhan@yahoo.com
2. How did you prepare for essays?

Appreciate it.
gur

Hi there, those are some pretty broad questions! Feel free to ask more specific questions and I'm sure someone can help you out.

Are you using Themis? This forum is really only for people using themis. General bar exam questions can be asked elsewhere.

[Neilt001]

Hi all, I know it's early but for those starting Themis now (eg full-time workers, foreign applicants etc), feel free to discuss here. I started studying this time last year for NY Feb 2018 and passed (getting admitted soon!)

Good luck and happy studying! I'm happy to answer any questions you may have...

Congratulations, Neil! Awesome to hear! Congrats on the moderatorship* as well!

*may have made this word up(?)

Ha!! thanks very much Ube

Also that sounds like a perfectly fine word to me
Cheers!

[Neilt001]

Hey everyone,

I'm new here. I sat for the bar in July/took Themis. I got a 257/9 points shy of the pass score in NY. I am finding this immensely painful to do again and dont know what I should do precisely because I was so close to passing and I'm not sure what I should maybe spend extra time on this time around. I have all the lecture handouts filled out from the summer so I've been re-listening at accelerated speed and my assessments suggest that I'm doing fine listening to lectures in that manner. So, any tips or suggestions on how to not drive myself insane and up my score would be incredibly greatly appreciated.

...Seriously, this is painful.

How there! I'm really sorry to hear that. How difficult to be so close but not getting over the line.

Did you have a look at your exam report? Presumably you have a decent idea of what your strengths/weaknesses are?

To be honest I agree with your approach of quickly getting through the lectures because I think the sooner you start doing MBE PQs, the better. Did you do lots last time? You should be aiming to do over 2000 of them. And ensure that you learn from each mistake by writing down the rules that you got wrong and reviewing those notes periodically. By sheer repetition and volume you should be able to up that MBE score. And you will of course have a idea of your weaker MBE subjects so put the MBE builder to use and drill those weaker subjects (e.g. property, con law, civ pro). Personally, I didn't even crack open the Themis course outlines. I just did lectures and then a whole bunch of MBE PQs.

If you fell down on the essays, there's a few things you can do. My biggest piece of advice for themis users is to print the model essay answers (delete all the fact-specific stuff), highlight/mark them up, and then do your absolute best to learn them. They're perfect statements of the law and, even if you don't memorize them 100%, you'll still develop a good understanding of how to answer those sorts of questions if you learn them well.

Having said that, there will always be questions you haven't seen before, so you'll want to get good at BSing your essay answers. Personally, I just kept typing and typing on exam day when I was confronted with questions I didn't know. Ensure that every single fact in the question gets addressed and applied in your answer. Being correct and exact is not the point. Coming up with BS is the point, and I ended up doing fine even though I know for a fact that I BS'd two of the six MEE questions. I apply a similar approach to the MPTs: keep writing. I remember the guy sitting next to me spent the first 10 minutes of the MPT outlining it on a piece of paper before he ever started writing. He may have done well, I'm not sure, but I just got right into it and didn't stop until the time was up. And I did great on those.

I'm trying to think of other tips but don't want to waffle on. But please do feel free to ask questions in this forum and I'm sure some of the previous takers will have good suggestions.

[BarpreppinNY]

Hey everyone,

I'm new here. I sat for the bar in July/took Themis. I got a 257/9 points shy of the pass score in NY. I am finding this immensely painful to do again and dont know what I should do precisely because I was so close to passing and I'm not sure what I should maybe spend extra time on this time around. I have all the lecture handouts filled out from the summer so I've been re-listening at accelerated speed and my assessments suggest that I'm doing fine listening to lectures in that manner. So, any tips or suggestions on how to not drive myself insane and up my score would be incredibly greatly appreciated.

...Seriously, this is painful.

How there! I'm really sorry to hear that. How difficult to be so close but not getting over the line.

Did you have a look at your exam report? Presumably you have a decent idea of what your strengths/weaknesses are?

To be honest I agree with your approach of quickly getting through the lectures because I think the sooner you start doing MBE PQs, the better. Did you do lots last time? You should be aiming to do over 2000 of them. And ensure that you learn from each mistake by writing down the rules that you got wrong and reviewing those notes periodically. By sheer repetition and volume you should be able to up that MBE score. And you will of course have a idea of your weaker MBE subjects so put the MBE builder to use and drill those weaker subjects (e.g. property, con law, civ pro). Personally, I didn't even crack open the Themis course outlines. I just did lectures and then a whole bunch of MBE PQs.

If you fell down on the essays, there's a few things you can do. My biggest piece of advice for themis users is to print the model essay answers (delete all the fact-specific stuff), highlight/mark them up, and then do your absolute best to learn them. They're perfect statements of the law and, even if you don't memorize them 100%, you'll still develop a good understanding of how to answer those sorts of questions if you learn them well.

Having said that, there will always be questions you haven't seen before, so you'll want to get good at BSing your essay answers. Personally, I just kept typing and typing on exam day when I was confronted with questions I didn't know. Ensure that every single fact in the question gets addressed and applied in your answer. Being correct and exact is not the point. Coming up with BS is the point, and I ended up doing fine even though I know for a fact that I BS'd two of the six MEE questions. I apply a similar approach to the MPTs: keep writing. I remember the guy sitting next to me spent the first 10 minutes of the MPT outlining it on a piece of paper before he ever started writing. He may have done well, I'm not sure, but I just got right into it and didn't stop until the time was up. And I did great on those.

I'm trying to think of other tips but don't want to waffle on. But please do feel free to ask questions in this forum and I'm sure some of the previous takers will have good suggestions.

Thanks for the tips, Neil! As well as for making me feel better about the lecture strategy and acknowledging how painfully close it was - sigh.

Yeah so I got a 131.5 written and a 125.8 (how is that possible agaib? Also must have been confused before, for some reason I thought a 125 was the target MBE score) On the MBE. Here is the problem. My mbe is a bit low but on MPT 1 I got a 54...on MPT 2? 30. So while I obviously have room to improve on essays and need to keep at my status quo for the MEE essays, i can at least say it's not a writing problem, not in the structural or legal sense. I know I need to be diligent there though. Some topics will inevitably be tested that were not tested. But the thing that I feel like really prevented me from passing was that I got killed on MPT 2, and it was not a timing issue. So it is difficult to say well, I need to improve my MBE when I had a 25 point difference between my MPT scores.

[jwk87]

For those who may be considering adaptibar. I reached out to themis after hearing there are people seeing the same questions on adaptibar. Themis uses officially licensed questions in both the MBE practice Book and on the topic-specific/mixed mbe sets. There is a mix of simulated and official questions in the MBE quiz builder.

[bdadon]

Is anybody willing to exchange Themis pdf questions for barbri pdf questions + lean sheets?

[Lancair]

Hi all - Australian lawyer here. Managed to find myself a job in NYC, now just need to pass the NY Bar. Hopefully with Themis' help I'll make it through...

I've been working on and off with early start for the last couple of months and have gotten through the outlines and lectures for the MBE topics last year. I've finished up work and am into review full time now. My focus, from reading Neil's and others' advice, is spend as much time on problem questions and essays as possible, and keeping a log of the MBE rules that I miss in the questions.

A few questions:

1. Did you do any "memorisation" beyond noting/review of the materials and then problem questions/essays? I'm not really a "flashcards" guy, but I don't have much experience in closed book tests (it was all open book tests at law school).
2. Do you think supplementing Themis with Adaptibar is useful/necessary?

Cheers

[Neilt001]

Hi all - Australian lawyer here. Managed to find myself a job in NYC, now just need to pass the NY Bar. Hopefully with Themis' help I'll make it through...

I've been working on and off with early start for the last couple of months and have gotten through the outlines and lectures for the MBE topics last year. I've finished up work and am into review full time now. My focus, from reading Neil's and others' advice, is spend as much time on problem questions and essays as possible, and keeping a log of the MBE rules that I miss in the questions.

A few questions:

1. Did you do any "memorisation" beyond noting/review of the materials and then problem questions/essays? I'm not really a "flashcards" guy, but I don't have much experience in closed book tests (it was all open book tests at law school).
2. Do you think supplementing Themis with Adaptibar is useful/necessary?

Cheers

Hey mate! I'm an aussie lawyer too and also never did the memorisation thing in law school (all open book like you). Currently working in NYC and waiting on an admission date.

Anyway, my two cents is that Themis doesn't really need to be supplemented because it's sort of designed as an all in one course. However, I did get Critical Pass flash cards because I wasn't sure if maybe I needed that additional memorisation element (like flipping through cards before bed or during travel). I did well and I think the cards helped a little. They were actually quite good in simply explaining certain concepts in slightly different terms. I found this especially helpful with some of the more nebulous civ pro rules, and the flash cards set out all the rules in a very straighforward manner that neither the lectures nor the MBE PQs ever really achieved.

Having said that, the flash cards are extremely voluminous and so they're not so much flash cards as they are notes distilled into card form. Anyway, it was another arrow in the quiver and I like to think it helped. I can't speak to adaptibar but I know it helped some people.

Also a quick word about the NCBE PQs. I bought a set from NCBE and found that many of them were identical to questions from Themis. So it's no particular help. I think Themis PQs are very similar to the bar.

As for your first question about memorisation - I think I had plans to do more real 'memorisation', but ultimately it ended up just being mainly MBE PQ repetition. I reckon you'll find your way cause everyone's different with their study approach.

Anyway good luck!

[longagotaker]

Good afternoon. I started a bit early because I am working so I am about 40% of the way through the course and noticing that my MBE PQ scores are dipping. I started the first couple of tests in each subject at a 72-79% and each subsequent test has been hovering in the 50s and 60s. Is anyone else experiencing this? Is the software focusing on my weak areas? Publishing harder tests? It's hard to know if I'm progressing or going backwards. Thanks for your input.

[NAMLEX]

Hello there. I'm not taking the February exam but intend to take it in July. I'm eligible for the NY bar as a foreign educated candidate and I have a couple of quick questions regarding Themis, I'd be really grateful for some input.

After doing a bit of research on bar review I was attracted to Themis - I'll be between London and Taipei when I'm studying so it is great to be able to study online. However I emailed Themis directly for advice several months ago and have heard nothing back - it was a little off putting but I'm still interested.

What would be the best Themis option for a foreign educated applicant like myself? I'm keen to familiarize myself with the materials asap, is there an early access provision for those such as myself that want to get an early start?

[Neilt001]

Good afternoon. I started a bit early because I am working so I am about 40% of the way through the course and noticing that my MBE PQ scores are dipping. I started the first couple of tests in each subject at a 72-79% and each subsequent test has been hovering in the 50s and 60s. Is anyone else experiencing this? Is the software focusing on my weak areas? Publishing harder tests? It's hard to know if I'm progressing or going backwards. Thanks for your input.

Hi there. That is the name of the game with bar study. You will be all over the place and just when you think you've got the hang of it, you get a terrible result and think you've learned nothing. As far as I can tell, Themis does not alter the MBE PQ difficulty depending on past performance, or focus on weak areas. There's lots of theories as to why you'd do poorly and then well, and then poorly again. I remember scoring mainly in the 60s and being scared, and then just weeks out from the bar I had a practice test scoring in the 50s. It was pretty scary but it all worked out.

My advice is not to live and die by your grades. Rather, just try to learn from each mistake, write down the rules you didn't know, and just do as many PQs as you can. Come exam day, you'll be decent. I scored in the 85th percentile on the MBE on exam day, despite only ever scoring high 60s during practice. That's a whole other issue but the consensus seems to be that those who use Themis will experience a bump in grades on the actual bar.

[Neilt001]

Hello there. I'm not taking the February exam but intend to take it in July. I'm eligible for the NY bar as a foreign educated candidate and I have a couple of quick questions regarding Themis, I'd be really grateful for some input.

After doing a bit of research on bar review I was attracted to Themis - I'll be between London and Taipei when I'm studying so it is great to be able to study online. However I emailed Themis directly for advice several months ago and have heard nothing back - it was a little off putting but I'm still interested.

What would be the best Themis option for a foreign educated applicant like myself? I'm keen to familiarize myself with the materials asap, is there an early access provision for those such as myself that want to get an early start?

Hi there! I had a similar situation. I was living in Bermuda and working full time, so I wanted something I could do online at my own pace, starting when I want. I'm not sure about emails, but I called Themis and they were great on the phone. I ended up staring bar study for the Feb bar in late October. Themis generally starts their course in mid-December, but they let me start a good 6 weeks early. Personally I don't see why they wouldn't let you start even soon (like now) but could be wrong. Anyway, just call em and you'll be sweet.

Other than that there aren't many 'options'. it's just the bar review course depending on your particular state and that's it. Unlike Barbri there's no 'foreign candidate' course or anything.

Good luck!

[Lancair]

Hello there. I'm not taking the February exam but intend to take it in July. I'm eligible for the NY bar as a foreign educated candidate and I have a couple of quick questions regarding Themis, I'd be really grateful for some input.

After doing a bit of research on bar review I was attracted to Themis - I'll be between London and Taipei when I'm studying so it is great to be able to study online. However I emailed Themis directly for advice several months ago and have heard nothing back - it was a little off putting but I'm still interested.

What would be the best Themis option for a foreign educated applicant like myself? I'm keen to familiarize myself with the materials asap, is there an early access provision for those such as myself that want to get an early start?

Hi there! I had a similar situation. I was living in Bermuda and working full time, so I wanted something I could do online at my own pace, starting when I want. I'm not sure about emails, but I called Themis and they were great on the phone. I ended up staring bar study for the Feb bar in late October. Themis generally starts their course in mid-December, but they let me start a good 6 weeks early. Personally I don't see why they wouldn't let you start even soon (like now) but could be wrong. Anyway, just call em and you'll be sweet.

Other than that there aren't many 'options'. it's just the bar review course depending on your particular state and that's it. Unlike Barbri there's no 'foreign candidate' course or anything.

Good luck!

Agree with Neil on the above. While I haven't passed yet (so take with a grain of salt), I looked into the various options and Themis seemed to provide the most flexibility for an early start with the full course materials, without being over the top like BarBri's foreign candidate course (which all sounds painfully unnecessary, particularly if you are coming from a common law jurisdiction).

My girlfriend is doing the standard BarBri at the moment and while the content seems similar, it is a much more structured course and there were less early start options.

I'm doing the LLM Advantage program and Themis will give you access to the MBE stuff ~8 months out (through a separate "Early Access" program). Not being able to port you progress in the early start course to the full review (which you can access ~4 months out) is slightly annoying but no big deal. The LLM program doesn't actually have any extra content as far as I can tell, apart from some mythical "LLM Advantage" book which hasn't arrived yet. I think you might get some additional graded essays as well. Probably not work the extra $1200 or whatever it costs.

If you were paying for it out of your own pocket, I'd just sign up for the regular Themis program and talk them into letting you access as early as necessary.

[fff1010]

I'm about 30% into the course and I am beyond frustrated with the app. It locks up on log in every other day or so for no apparent reason and freezes on the blue screen with the Themis logo. The only solution is to clear the cache and un/reinstall the entire app, and it typically takes 4-5 reinstalls to get it going again.

Anyone else experiencing similar difficulties?

[washington_mystics]

For the first Real Property Practice Essay (ID 2823), does this reading of the Sample Answer make sense? Since T has implied duty of repair in commercial leases and not LL, T's earlier argument for constructive eviction is likely to fail because LL's failure to repair did not 'substantially interefere' with T's quiet enjoyment as it was not LL's duty in the first place.

[Neilt001]

Hello there. I'm not taking the February exam but intend to take it in July. I'm eligible for the NY bar as a foreign educated candidate and I have a couple of quick questions regarding Themis, I'd be really grateful for some input.

After doing a bit of research on bar review I was attracted to Themis - I'll be between London and Taipei when I'm studying so it is great to be able to study online. However I emailed Themis directly for advice several months ago and have heard nothing back - it was a little off putting but I'm still interested.

What would be the best Themis option for a foreign educated applicant like myself? I'm keen to familiarize myself with the materials asap, is there an early access provision for those such as myself that want to get an early start?

Hi there! I had a similar situation. I was living in Bermuda and working full time, so I wanted something I could do online at my own pace, starting when I want. I'm not sure about emails, but I called Themis and they were great on the phone. I ended up staring bar study for the Feb bar in late October. Themis generally starts their course in mid-December, but they let me start a good 6 weeks early. Personally I don't see why they wouldn't let you start even soon (like now) but could be wrong. Anyway, just call em and you'll be sweet.

Other than that there aren't many 'options'. it's just the bar review course depending on your particular state and that's it. Unlike Barbri there's no 'foreign candidate' course or anything.

Good luck!

Agree with Neil on the above. While I haven't passed yet (so take with a grain of salt), I looked into the various options and Themis seemed to provide the most flexibility for an early start with the full course materials, without being over the top like BarBri's foreign candidate course (which all sounds painfully unnecessary, particularly if you are coming from a common law jurisdiction).

My girlfriend is doing the standard BarBri at the moment and while the content seems similar, it is a much more structured course and there were less early start options.

I'm doing the LLM Advantage program and Themis will give you access to the MBE stuff ~8 months out (through a separate "Early Access" program). Not being able to port you progress in the early start course to the full review (which you can access ~4 months out) is slightly annoying but no big deal. The LLM program doesn't actually have any extra content as far as I can tell, apart from some mythical "LLM Advantage" book which hasn't arrived yet. I think you might get some additional graded essays as well. Probably not work the extra $1200 or whatever it costs.

If you were paying for it out of your own pocket, I'd just sign up for the regular Themis program and talk them into letting you access as early as necessary.

That's really helpful! Agree re the Barbri foreign course. A friend of mine did it. 12 months. $5,000. Complete overkill. Good point re the Themis LLM option.

[Neilt001]

I'm about 30% into the course and I am beyond frustrated with the app. It locks up on log in every other day or so for no apparent reason and freezes on the blue screen with the Themis logo. The only solution is to clear the cache and un/reinstall the entire app, and it typically takes 4-5 reinstalls to get it going again.

Anyone else experiencing similar difficulties?

That's really annoying! I personally haven't. Give Themis IT a call?

[Pajsa18]

Retaker here - using Themis again, along with some other aids. Have some questions, please forgive the longer post.

Basically, I am trying to find out if it's normal/common for your scores as a re-taker to jump significantly when compared with the first time around? I cannot get my Themis mentor to give me a straight answer on this.

The first time around I was already totally exhausted when I began studying - I was a full-time day student, married, three children, and worked 25 hours a week during the last two years of law school, plus worked full-time every summer - I was just glad to get to graduation! But, by the time I did graduate I was absolutely mentally and physically exhausted. I wanted to wait until February to take the bar the first time so I could take a minute to *breathe* and enjoy my children and husband for a while, but was told repeatedly that this was a "very bad idea" and that I must "take it right away", blah blah blah - I am totally annoyed with myself for not following my instinct and just waiting - so I pushed through and ended up missing by 5 points.

The entire time I was studying I was in a mental fog - it was likely reading a foreign language, I'm not exaggerating. Everything seemed insurmountably hard and fuzzy, which is not something I was used to encountering as a student.

Fast forward to now - I listened to my husband and have taken off work to study full-time for the retake in February and have been scoring significantly better than what I was scoring the first time. I realize that I have already studied this information (I completed more the 95% of Themis the first time around) so it's not like I'm starting from scratch again.

Also, I have kept a spreadsheet from the first exam (July 2018) detailing every single score I received on PQs and PTs, along with the Themis "goal" percentage for that set, so I have these exact scores to compare with what I am scoring now (apples to apples) as a retaker, and I am scoring significantly higher.

Basically, I am trying to determine whether these new scores mean anything or if this will translate to a better MBE score this next time? My Themis mentor says that re-takers should still be shooting for the same percentages as anyone else, but she will not give me any clear indication (based on past Themis re-takers' experiences) if significantly higher percentages are to be expected (and thus somewhat discounted), or if I will likely do much better this time around because of the better scores??

I hope this makes sense - I would love any input as I have searched the internet in vain and have yet to find any answers to this question - plus I cannot get any kind of clear answer from Themis at all. She just keeps giving vague answers that really do not make any sense in relation to my questions. Thank you in advance!

[inyourhonor07]

Anyone receive their first graded essay back?

I received a 4/6 even though my headings were a little different and I applied one of the rules wrong (I wrote that the company substantially performed, but the correct answer stated they didn't). I was honestly very surprised and felt like I was for sure going to get a 2/6 because of the wrong rule/application to facts, but I think having the format down tremendously helped my grade. Anyone know if the bar essay graders are harder than Themis?

Really looking forward to bombing the graded IL essays because I've spent 0 time looking over IL distinctions after each lecture handout.

[scarletpiggy]

Does the new Themis outline point out the difference between old CA PR rules and the new ones? Looking for something that lists up the differences as I am using the older outlines and learning the rules by actually looking at the modified rules..