Bar preparation for foreign law graduates without American LLM

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Iamchromes

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Bar preparation for foreign law graduates without American LLM

Postby Iamchromes » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:16 pm

I have been seeing alot about the likes of lean sheets, Kaplan and Barbri law review. Something comes to mind, “can you review what you don’t already know?” Foreign law grads (myself inclusive) need to study textbooks on each subject . It is only after studying and understanding these subjects that anyone should proceed with the Kaplan or Barbri review.

I will be taking the February 2018 bar exam and I don’t know where to get these textbooks and course outlines. Any help would be appreciated.

TheJuryMustDie

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Re: Bar preparation for foreign law graduates without American LLM

Postby TheJuryMustDie » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:51 pm

Iamchromes wrote:I have been seeing alot about the likes of lean sheets, Kaplan and Barbri law review. Something comes to mind, “can you review what you don’t already know?” Foreign law grads (myself inclusive) need to study textbooks on each subject . It is only after studying and understanding these subjects that anyone should proceed with the Kaplan or Barbri review.

I will be taking the February 2018 bar exam and I don’t know where to get these textbooks and course outlines. Any help would be appreciated.


You wouldn't need any textbooks if you are doing a full bar review programme. These programmes normally provide sufficient resources to cover virtually all testable areas of law.

As foreign educated myself, I didn't do any commercial bar review course. I did however purchase some of their resources online/former bar takers; You will be fine with those too. Studying textbooks is a laboriously inefficient way of preparing for the bar in my opinion.

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NoBladesNoBows

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Re: Bar preparation for foreign law graduates without American LLM

Postby NoBladesNoBows » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:29 pm

Iamchromes wrote:I have been seeing alot about the likes of lean sheets, Kaplan and Barbri law review. Something comes to mind, “can you review what you don’t already know?” Foreign law grads (myself inclusive) need to study textbooks on each subject . It is only after studying and understanding these subjects that anyone should proceed with the Kaplan or Barbri review.

I will be taking the February 2018 bar exam and I don’t know where to get these textbooks and course outlines. Any help would be appreciated.

This is not the approach you should be taking at all. Trying to learn the law from "textbooks" (which don't even really exist for law classes because of the nonsensical case method) will be inefficient and incomprehensibly time consuming. Most people sitting for the bar are studying various topics for the first time anyway. I was at a T14 and graduated without having taken evidence or criminal procedure, two MBE and MEE topics. Additional MEE topics covered that I didn't take were secured transactions, family law, trusts and estates, wills, and some others I'm forgetting. This is not at all unusual.

Frankly, I found the bar review course a more effective method of teaching those classes that I hadn't taken than law school was for those I had. I think this says a lot of really sad things about law school (IMO it's more philosophy of law than actually learning law) but hey, it is what it is.

You should, however, probably get started early and put some extra time into the comprehensive outlines. I don't know how other courses work, but I did Barbri which comes with massive outlines as well as summary outlines. The course itself never actually calls for you to read the full-length outlines, but simply gives them to you in case you need extra review. I'd suggest you get started early and try to make your way all the way through that.

But forget about getting textbooks, or casebooks, or treatises, or whatever. You would spend tons of time on highly intricate details that aren't tested, and it would take you a year.

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4LTsPointingNorth

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Re: Bar preparation for foreign law graduates without American LLM

Postby 4LTsPointingNorth » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:43 pm

Iamchromes wrote:I have been seeing alot about the likes of lean sheets, Kaplan and Barbri law review. Something comes to mind, “can you review what you don’t already know?” Foreign law grads (myself inclusive) need to study textbooks on each subject . It is only after studying and understanding these subjects that anyone should proceed with the Kaplan or Barbri review.

I will be taking the February 2018 bar exam and I don’t know where to get these textbooks and course outlines. Any help would be appreciated.


The major bar prep programs like Barbri, Kaplan or Themis come with recorded lectures teaching the subject matter as if you never learned or don't remember it from law school. These lectures each come with 30-60 page lecture outlines for you to complete as you watch the lectures.

In addition, you will also review full-length substantive course outlines for the same subjects that are written independent on the lectures. This sounds like what you're looking for, so you may be glad to know that these will be available from a bar prep program. You'll basically be learning each subject from at least two separate sources before you even begin doing practice problems.

And at least for Themis, there were a third set of MEE specific outlines and lectures listing/teaching issues to cover on those short essay questions.

It's also worth adding that you'll best learn how to pass the bar exam by doing the practice problems. You don't need to have a full grasp of the subjects before you start doing those.

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Wild Card

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Re: Bar preparation for foreign law graduates without American LLM

Postby Wild Card » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:42 pm

I didn't learn anything as a first-year law student, so we're in pretty much the same position.

Barbri, Kaplan, or Themis will all prepare you well for the bar, though you'll have to spend a ton of extra time on everything.

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KunAgnis

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Re: Bar preparation for foreign law graduates without American LLM

Postby KunAgnis » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:30 pm

Wild Card wrote:I didn't learn anything as a first-year law student, so we're in pretty much the same position.

Barbri, Kaplan, or Themis will all prepare you well for the bar, though you'll have to spend a ton of extra time on everything.


FWIW a friend of mine who was top 5% at a T20 thought that getting Kaplan to save money was a mistake since they taught so poorly - YMMV obviously. I personally don't see the problem with Barbri if the firm will reimburse you, as it had a pretty thorough preparation program.

b290

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Re: Bar preparation for foreign law graduates without American LLM

Postby b290 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:35 pm

NoBladesNoBows wrote:
Iamchromes wrote:I have been seeing alot about the likes of lean sheets, Kaplan and Barbri law review. Something comes to mind, “can you review what you don’t already know?” Foreign law grads (myself inclusive) need to study textbooks on each subject . It is only after studying and understanding these subjects that anyone should proceed with the Kaplan or Barbri review.

I will be taking the February 2018 bar exam and I don’t know where to get these textbooks and course outlines. Any help would be appreciated.

This is not the approach you should be taking at all. Trying to learn the law from "textbooks" (which don't even really exist for law classes because of the nonsensical case method) will be inefficient and incomprehensibly time consuming. Most people sitting for the bar are studying various topics for the first time anyway. I was at a T14 and graduated without having taken evidence or criminal procedure, two MBE and MEE topics. Additional MEE topics covered that I didn't take were secured transactions, family law, trusts and estates, wills, and some others I'm forgetting. This is not at all unusual.

Frankly, I found the bar review course a more effective method of teaching those classes that I hadn't taken than law school was for those I had. I think this says a lot of really sad things about law school (IMO it's more philosophy of law than actually learning law) but hey, it is what it is.

You should, however, probably get started early and put some extra time into the comprehensive outlines. I don't know how other courses work, but I did Barbri which comes with massive outlines as well as summary outlines. The course itself never actually calls for you to read the full-length outlines, but simply gives them to you in case you need extra review. I'd suggest you get started early and try to make your way all the way through that.

But forget about getting textbooks, or casebooks, or treatises, or whatever. You would spend tons of time on highly intricate details that aren't tested, and it would take you a year.

This. Listen to your elders :lol:

My $.02

Nightcrawler

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Re: Bar preparation for foreign law graduates without American LLM

Postby Nightcrawler » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:58 pm

I am a foreign law graduate and sat for the CA bar a few times now. I can definitely agree with the crowd saying that the law school method would be a very inefficient way to study for the bar exam. I took a few bar classes (like Con Law, Contracts, etc.) during my LLM and they were pretty useless for the bar exam itself. For example, Con Law was 4 months on the Commerce Clause. Which is half a page of a 15 pages Con Law outline for the bar. It would be like learning how to ski if you are interested in becoming a snowboarder. They are kind of similar, but spending a lot of time learning how to ski won't help you that much in learning how to snowboard. Anyway, after 4 tries, each time improving by a substantial margin (and fingers crossed for July 2018), this is my advice on what I think the best method is.

Essays. I suggest you start with something easy, short, and digestible (for California, I used SmartBarPrep, for other states I heard Studicata is pretty similar). They just tell you what rules you need for the R part of the essays IRAC. They are usually 1/10 of the lenght of bigger, more comprehensive outlines but contain 80% of the law testable on the bar exam.

MBE. Adaptibar. It's the best method out there. Sometimes their explanations are useless, but usually they show you the right direction. Do as many questions as possible and review the explanations.

If you don't get the law on the resources mentioned above, buy a comprehensive Barbri book (the big, big ones) where you will find 99% of the law testable on the exam. I can assure you, you will need this especially for some weird MBE questions you'll get.

PTs. Use the free ones on the Georgia website.

Of course, if you want to get a general feeling of the bar exam and some other basic stuff that I didn't talk about here, go for a bar prep course (like barbri, themis, etc.). But beware, they are very expensive and not worth the price.

AussieAustin

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Re: Bar preparation for foreign law graduates without American LLM

Postby AussieAustin » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:45 pm

Does anyone have any experience with the BarBri extended LLM course? It’s really hard to tell from their website just what extra you’re getting. It would be nice to see some kind of schedule or guide. I’m leaning towards Themis. I’m about to start the LLM course at UT and have an Australian Law degree (graduated in 2015).

AussieAustin

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Re: Bar preparation for foreign law graduates without American LLM

Postby AussieAustin » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:03 pm

Does anyone have any experience with the BarBri extended LLM course? It’s really hard to tell from their website just what extra you’re getting. It would be nice to see some kind of schedule or guide. I’m leaning towards Themis. I’m about to start the LLM course at UT and have an Australian Law degree (graduated in 2015).

Nightcrawler

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Re: Bar preparation for foreign law graduates without American LLM

Postby Nightcrawler » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:51 am

AussieAustin wrote:Does anyone have any experience with the BarBri extended LLM course? It’s really hard to tell from their website just what extra you’re getting. It would be nice to see some kind of schedule or guide. I’m leaning towards Themis. I’m about to start the LLM course at UT and have an Australian Law degree (graduated in 2015).


Yes, I did the barbri Llm extended course. It’s a complete waste of time and money. It’s mostly an extra portion of useless videos (that are a repetition of the lectures you will have during the actual course). You pay an extra $500 for something that, even if it wasn’t useless, you wouldn’t have time to do because you are doing your llm in the meanwhile. Don’t know about Themis but from what I heard, it’s pretty similar to barbri (hence, a better option because of the lower price tag).

AussieAustin

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Re: Bar preparation for foreign law graduates without American LLM

Postby AussieAustin » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:59 am

Nightcrawler wrote:
AussieAustin wrote:Does anyone have any experience with the BarBri extended LLM course? It’s really hard to tell from their website just what extra you’re getting. It would be nice to see some kind of schedule or guide. I’m leaning towards Themis. I’m about to start the LLM course at UT and have an Australian Law degree (graduated in 2015).


Yes, I did the barbri Llm extended course. It’s a complete waste of time and money. It’s mostly an extra portion of useless videos (that are a repetition of the lectures you will have during the actual course). You pay an extra $500 for something that, even if it wasn’t useless, you wouldn’t have time to do because you are doing your llm in the meanwhile. Don’t know about Themis but from what I heard, it’s pretty similar to barbri (hence, a better option because of the lower price tag).


Thanks for that. It’s exactly what I was thinking Re already studying for the LLM at the same time. Barbri doesn’t free the extended course for Texas so I hadn’t considered doing that one but I’m sure it’s similar with Themis. I know that the school I go to does their own extended course but not sure yet what it is or what it entails. I’ll probably stick to the normal version :D

AussieAustin

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Re: Bar preparation for foreign law graduates without American LLM

Postby AussieAustin » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:01 am

Nightcrawler wrote:
AussieAustin wrote:Does anyone have any experience with the BarBri extended LLM course? It’s really hard to tell from their website just what extra you’re getting. It would be nice to see some kind of schedule or guide. I’m leaning towards Themis. I’m about to start the LLM course at UT and have an Australian Law degree (graduated in 2015).


Yes, I did the barbri Llm extended course. It’s a complete waste of time and money. It’s mostly an extra portion of useless videos (that are a repetition of the lectures you will have during the actual course). You pay an extra $500 for something that, even if it wasn’t useless, you wouldn’t have time to do because you are doing your llm in the meanwhile. Don’t know about Themis but from what I heard, it’s pretty similar to barbri (hence, a better option because of the lower price tag).


Oops, I got myself Mixed up with my first response. It’s only Barbri that I can do being in Texas so you’ve pretty much solved my problem. The stress of this thing is already getting to my brain. Lol.

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Neilt001

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Re: Bar preparation for foreign law graduates without American LLM

Postby Neilt001 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:14 am

+1. Def agree with other posters. A bar review course is meant to teach you everything you need to know from scratch.

I'm an aussie qualified lawyer and passed the NYBX in feb 18 using Themis to study for 4 months in the evenings/weekends while working full time. It was fine. I supplemented Themis with flashcards (for drilling/memorization) but otherwise everything I needed to know Themis taught me. And it's all online which is great. Steer well clear of textbooks and just trust the process of your review course.



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