Intentionally failing the bar exam just to get access to current MBE questions?

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FinallyPassedTheBar

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Intentionally failing the bar exam just to get access to current MBE questions?

Postby FinallyPassedTheBar » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:47 am

I was talking to a friend who said the big bar review courses are sending employees/contractors to intentionally fail the bar exam. The reason is so that the employees/contractors can read the current MBE questions to develop their own "simulated" questions. They are already attorneys licensed in other states, so they don't have any interest in passing the bar again.

Anyone else hear of such things? I remember the guy who originally created PMBR said he took the exam almost every year. I think he was sued, but I don't remember the reason.

Nightcrawler

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Re: Intentionally failing the bar exam just to get access to current MBE questions?

Postby Nightcrawler » Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:16 am

FinallyPassedTheBar wrote:I was talking to a friend who said the big bar review courses are sending employees/contractors to intentionally fail the bar exam. The reason is so that the employees/contractors can read the current MBE questions to develop their own "simulated" questions. They are already attorneys licensed in other states, so they don't have any interest in passing the bar again.

Anyone else hear of such things? I remember the guy who originally created PMBR said he took the exam almost every year. I think he was sued, but I don't remember the reason.


That’s amazing, I would love to know more about that. If barbri was doing that in the past though they must have stopped because their questions suck ahahah

malibustacy

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Re: Intentionally failing the bar exam just to get access to current MBE questions?

Postby malibustacy » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:35 am

The feels when you're sitting there for the fifth time to take the bar to get the question formats for BarBri, and remember you had big dreams too once upon a time as a law student, say fuck BarBri, go rouge, and pass the bar exam to finally become a lawyer.

dabigchina

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Re: Intentionally failing the bar exam just to get access to current MBE questions?

Postby dabigchina » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:45 pm

I wouldn't be surprised. The Themis PR lecturer mentioned she had taken then bar in 7 states. Theres no real reason for anyone to do this unless she actually wanted to see what the exams were like.

BlondeLawyer

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Re: Intentionally failing the bar exam just to get access to current MBE questions?

Postby BlondeLawyer » Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:46 pm

I have heard this from a few sources. The blow back from that is state specific days for exams like Florida will just get harder. Florida seems to be curving down and crushing people.

maga

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Re: Intentionally failing the bar exam just to get access to current MBE questions?

Postby maga » Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:36 am

If I were an employer trying to get access to all the MBE questions, I'd hire someone with photographic memory and make bank. You would obviously want to change the fact patterns and modify the options a bit.

Taking the BAR exam this July, I realized they tell you that if you do not sit in on the 1st day essay portion, they will not allow you to sit on the MBE portion of the exam to, what I'm assuming, this particular sort of thing from happening.

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ndbigdave

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Re: Intentionally failing the bar exam just to get access to current MBE questions?

Postby ndbigdave » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:23 pm

maga wrote:If I were an employer trying to get access to all the MBE questions, I'd hire someone with photographic memory and make bank. You would obviously want to change the fact patterns and modify the options a bit.

Taking the BAR exam this July, I realized they tell you that if you do not sit in on the 1st day essay portion, they will not allow you to sit on the MBE portion of the exam to, what I'm assuming, this particular sort of thing from happening.


Certainly makes sense and I would do it if I ran such a company Id love to get access to recent questions and style (it makes sense on paper), but as previously mentioned, without someone having a photographic memory, not entirely sure what you could glean? Maybe remember a few questions?

Having to live through the first day is simple, especially if the real goal is to look at the MBE questions - just write some crap on Day 1. Not sure that is really an issue.

FinallyPassedTheBar

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Re: Intentionally failing the bar exam just to get access to current MBE questions?

Postby FinallyPassedTheBar » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:36 pm

ndbigdave wrote:
maga wrote:If I were an employer trying to get access to all the MBE questions, I'd hire someone with photographic memory and make bank. You would obviously want to change the fact patterns and modify the options a bit.

Taking the BAR exam this July, I realized they tell you that if you do not sit in on the 1st day essay portion, they will not allow you to sit on the MBE portion of the exam to, what I'm assuming, this particular sort of thing from happening.


Certainly makes sense and I would do it if I ran such a company Id love to get access to recent questions and style (it makes sense on paper), but as previously mentioned, without someone having a photographic memory, not entirely sure what you could glean? Maybe remember a few questions?

Having to live through the first day is simple, especially if the real goal is to look at the MBE questions - just write some crap on Day 1. Not sure that is really an issue.



I think people without photographic memories can remember up to 7-10 questions with some training. They just have to furiously write them down during the lunch break or after the exam. Get 10 people to take the test, each one remembering 10 questions from the morning and afternoon, and you got yourself 200 questions. Of course some of the questions will likely overlap, and some will be missed, since the test booklets rearrange all the questions.

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Wild Card

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Re: Intentionally failing the bar exam just to get access to current MBE questions?

Postby Wild Card » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:56 pm

Pretty sure the guy next to me was doing this. Didn't hear him typing, or feel the table moving (as it would be if he were bubbling in answers). I even looked over at him to see wtf he was doing. It seemed as if he were studying the questions.

Tony48

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Re: Intentionally failing the bar exam just to get access to current MBE questions?

Postby Tony48 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:27 am

One of my law school professors said that Barbri does this. But you have to sign some type of honor code indicating that you're only taking the test for a specific purpose (or something like that), sooooo......

Bottom line: I've heard this, too.

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Re: Intentionally failing the bar exam just to get access to current MBE questions?

Postby Smiddywesson » Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:07 pm

These are million dollar companies. All you need is 14 employees to take the test. No photographic memory needed. Each of the seven subjects gets two employees, one to memorize the odd numbered questions in, for example Property, and one the even numbered. With 25 total questions, that's 12.5 per session, and divided by two that's only 6.25 questions to memorize over the course of 3 hours. It's possible, Hell it's probable.

Unfortunately, this not only screws with the fairness of the test, it also messes with the scale because these vermin are also memorizing the equators, the 30 questions taken from the previous July, and 30 from the previous February. I believe the NCBE went to 25 non-scored pretest questions and ten forms of the test, for a total of 250 potential new scored questions with each administration (500 per year) to combat this. They can virtually change every scored question on the test with each administration, however the equators are still compromised. It's unnecessary, illegal, and unfair. Did I mention these companies are vermin?

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Re: Intentionally failing the bar exam just to get access to current MBE questions?

Postby masonjarrr » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:39 pm

Smiddywesson wrote:These are million dollar companies. All you need is 14 employees to take the test. No photographic memory needed. Each of the seven subjects gets two employees, one to memorize the odd numbered questions in, for example Property, and one the even numbered. With 25 total questions, that's 12.5 per session, and divided by two that's only 6.25 questions to memorize over the course of 3 hours. It's possible, Hell it's probable.

Unfortunately, this not only screws with the fairness of the test, it also messes with the scale because these vermin are also memorizing the equators, the 30 questions taken from the previous July, and 30 from the previous February. I believe the NCBE went to 25 non-scored pretest questions and ten forms of the test, for a total of 250 potential new scored questions with each administration (500 per year) to combat this. They can virtually change every scored question on the test with each administration, however the equators are still compromised. It's unnecessary, illegal, and unfair. Did I mention these companies are vermin?



That's what I thought, but think about it. The exams are taken twice a year, and these companies allegedly do it every single time to stay on top of the curve. What if even once instance of this were to be caught by NCBE? All it takes is one hiccup. Someone from the inside snitching, physical document relating to this matter going out, someone taking the exam accidentally giving it away etc. That company would be in a serious legal trouble. If they are just that good at keeping a tight seal on it, then there's obviously no big deal.

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rcharter1978

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Re: Intentionally failing the bar exam just to get access to current MBE questions?

Postby rcharter1978 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:51 pm

A guy that was like in the top 5% of my class retook the bar and when I saw him I assumed it was some kind of scheme like what you described. He claimed it wasn't, but he is REALLY smart and an amazing writer so I smelled a rat.

QContinuum

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Re: Intentionally failing the bar exam just to get access to current MBE questions?

Postby QContinuum » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:15 pm

rcharter1978 wrote:A guy that was like in the top 5% of my class retook the bar and when I saw him I assumed it was some kind of scheme like what you described. He claimed it wasn't, but he is REALLY smart and an amazing writer so I smelled a rat.

He may have simply underestimated the bar. It happens occasionally to folks who ace law school and think they know the bar subjects cold, thus (unwisely) concluding they don't need to buckle down and revise. Jerry Brown, Hillary Clinton, JFK Jr., the daughter of former NY Gov. Pataki, former Stanford Law Dean Sullivan, former CA Gov. Pete Wilson, Michelle Obama, FDR, former Justice Cardozo, former Chicago Mayor Daley, former LA Mayor Villaraigosa, former NY Gov. David Paterson...

Smiddywesson

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Re: Intentionally failing the bar exam just to get access to current MBE questions?

Postby Smiddywesson » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:56 pm

QContinuum wrote:
rcharter1978 wrote:A guy that was like in the top 5% of my class retook the bar and when I saw him I assumed it was some kind of scheme like what you described. He claimed it wasn't, but he is REALLY smart and an amazing writer so I smelled a rat.

He may have simply underestimated the bar. It happens occasionally to folks who ace law school and think they know the bar subjects cold, thus (unwisely) concluding they don't need to buckle down and revise. Jerry Brown, Hillary Clinton, JFK Jr., the daughter of former NY Gov. Pataki, former Stanford Law Dean Sullivan, former CA Gov. Pete Wilson, Michelle Obama, FDR, former Justice Cardozo, former Chicago Mayor Daley, former LA Mayor Villaraigosa, former NY Gov. David Paterson...


It's definitely an acquired skill to do well on the bar. I'm waiting for my scores, but if I have to retake it, bar prep is going to be very different this time around. Over reliance on the oldest released MBE questions was a big mistake. I'll take a LOT more Barbri and S&T FINZ this time around. Not doing any practice essays since my last bar in 1989 was, perhaps, a tad arrogant. At least I did three practice MPTs, that saved me, however the laptop melting down on day one was kind of a buzz kill. There's also a lot of luck to this. I studied Trusts during lunch and BINGO! There it was. :)

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Re: Intentionally failing the bar exam just to get access to current MBE questions?

Postby jennimarcy » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:11 pm

I can remember at least five questions, word for word from the February test. One guy said he had a question with a certain price, it was not on my test. Another guy mentioned a certain animal. Again, that animal was not on my test. So the tests are different even in the same room and I have never seen a question repeated. Words that jumped across my memory today from the exam made me smile.

I know a professor who sat for many bar exams in different states. However, I do not know his reasons for doing so, but he taught his students about preparation being key and he never revealed test questions or memorized them.

Even the FYLSE questions differ from each administration (yes, I can still remember some of those questions today and that was in 2012). So, you never know what you're going to get at any sitting.

Bar programs do not need to send employees to memorize questions, or even to sit for the bar exam to have some sort of an advantage. The techniques and approaches in teaching can be established from the released questions. That is why the S&T book is such a great resource, the approach section before the questions tell you what to look for. I hope I passed this time around, but like I've said in other board topics, I'm studying for July's test because with 136 days to go, I've got a better chance now of passing the test. I don't study every waking moment, this time around, it is pretty relaxed. I'm approaching my studying as if I was a lawyer addressing a case, rather than a stressed out student going over questions. Feels good to be looking at this conspiracy topic and thinking, the companies have better things to do with their employees.

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Re: Intentionally failing the bar exam just to get access to current MBE questions?

Postby Smiddywesson » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:44 pm

jennimarcy wrote:I can remember at least five questions, word for word from the February test. One guy said he had a question with a certain price, it was not on my test. Another guy mentioned a certain animal. Again, that animal was not on my test. So the tests are different even in the same room and I have never seen a question repeated. Words that jumped across my memory today from the exam made me smile.

I know a professor who sat for many bar exams in different states. However, I do not know his reasons for doing so, but he taught his students about preparation being key and he never revealed test questions or memorized them.

Even the FYLSE questions differ from each administration (yes, I can still remember some of those questions today and that was in 2012). So, you never know what you're going to get at any sitting.

Bar programs do not need to send employees to memorize questions, or even to sit for the bar exam to have some sort of an advantage. The techniques and approaches in teaching can be established from the released questions. That is why the S&T book is such a great resource, the approach section before the questions tell you what to look for. I hope I passed this time around, but like I've said in other board topics, I'm studying for July's test because with 136 days to go, I've got a better chance now of passing the test. I don't study every waking moment, this time around, it is pretty relaxed. I'm approaching my studying as if I was a lawyer addressing a case, rather than a stressed out student going over questions. Feels good to be looking at this conspiracy topic and thinking, the companies have better things to do with their employees.


Yup, in the end, it doesn't matter.
Different questions: After all the hoopla with NCBE copyright actions against bar review companies, they switched to 25 unscored pretest questions. There are ten forms of the test, so that gives them a maximum of 250 pretested questions per administration, or 500 a year. This probably accounts for why your friends discussed unfamiliar questions.

I remember the judge in the PMBR suit saying the NCBE is never going to stop these companies from stealing the questions. He underestimated the NCBE. Aside from the 60 equator questions, 30 of which come from the previous July test, and 30 of which are taken from the previous February test, the NCBE has the means to change every other question on the test each time it is given. The best way to pass is to ignore all this and study smart. The NCBE says the four OPE Exams and the two Study Aids are the way to study smart. They would know, so if I have to take it again, there you go.



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