2018 July California Bar

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arose928

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby arose928 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:14 pm

For future reference -

before results came out my admission status page said my name was 'not on motion' to the Supreme Court. I passed. Now it says I'm on motion. So in the future, I don't think it saying 'not on motion' before results are released actually indicates anything.

ContingentRemainder

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby ContingentRemainder » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:56 pm

To those who are frustrated, or who have lost faith in themselves, for whatever reason. YOU CAN PASS! The first step is to fully realize this.

I finally passed this time!! My story is pretty long, but essentially, I graduated back in 2008! I took the California bar exam 6 times previously, spending time on other things (my life!) in between. I went through my father's death in 2011, while my mother battled cancer (and thankfully survived) in the meantime. I still managed to take the bar exam occasionally in this time.

I was fully ready to accept that I had failed this time, but I passed! My best advice would be to tackle every section of the exam and make sure you cover it completely. I took BarBri, but I supplemented the course with what I needed for myself.

For the MBE, I used Adaptibar, BarBri, and Strategies and Tactics for the MBE. The BarBri course was good, but insufficient! I started early and drilled Adaptibar questions. I found that using both was helpful for various reasons. But, the star of this show is the S&T book! It is brilliant, and honestly, I think you could get by with just this book alone (though I would recommend supplementing it with more practice questions).

For the performance test, I made sure that I did all of the ones that BarBri assigned + a few more. I was very worried about finishing them on time, so on the actual exam, I took the advice of people on this forum and set aside an extra 10-15 minutes for it. This did make me rush those essays a little, but I finished them.

This next one is key, and it could really help you on the essays. With BarBri, I did not fully write out all of their essays, but I did outline all of them. After about a month of studying, I decided to buy "Essay Exam Writing for the California Bar" by Mary Basick. This book is amazing! If I were to take the exam again, I would focus primarily on this book. Though it's a few years old, it is more than sufficient to cover what you need for the essays. Approaching the exam, I MEMORIZED the attack sheets for all of the California subject, ESPECIALLY Professional Responsibility. I made silly mnemonics to remember the first letter of every subtopic exactly as it was in the book. This really helped me on the exam. If I had spent more time on this book, I would have done this for every subject, but fortunately it was enough for me. Really, this book is all you need for the essay section of the exam. I have no doubt about this.

Anyway, that was my process. I did nothing but study and survive for several months. I hope it is helpful to someone.

So now I have books I don't need:

1) Complete set of BarBri books (including the lawmaster study keys), unmarked for sale.

2) The latest Strategies and Tactics for the MBE.

3) Essay Exam Writing for the California Bar by Mary Basick.

I probably have some older books sitting around too. My books are all unmarked. Not because I didn't use them (BELIEVE ME I USED THEM), but because I typed all of my notes on my laptop.

I haven't priced them yet (I thought I might still need them), but if you have an offer please feel free to send me a message. I may post again with prices.

Congratulations to those who passed, and best of luck to those of you who will take on the beast next time!

EDIT: I'm in southern California (Orange County) if you're interested in the books.

JakeTappers

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby JakeTappers » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:51 pm

mimim8 wrote:
JakeTappers wrote:Took the attorneys exam after studying 3 weeks and failed. Will be interested to see how close I came. Tough part is not knowing what to do differently, except MORE. Which sucks (will be trying cases by 2019). 32%. Amazing!

Dude, I was literally on ur same boat


I took the attys exam July 2017 after studying full time and knowing it all inside out and failed.

I took the July 2018 atty exam, while working full time, week and a half off from work and passed. Idk how but I did. I’ll be happy to share maybe some insight into what I did differently if interested. But in short- last time I tried to memorize eeeeverything But I wasn’t prepared for an essay exam. I feel like I would have done well had I taken the MBE. This time I didn’t have time to learn everything so while I reviewed everything- I focused memorizing perfect essay templates on all the main bar topics. And I focused my studying on MBE topics. When I would review I topic I would see how I would frame it in essay form and literally memorize the whole flow. I know it helped me a lot in the evidence, Pr and con law questions.

Don’t give up!


Would love any other advice. Have more time in terms of months but will literally be extremely busy, starting government job in December. Should I take full exam?

jjman

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby jjman » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:02 pm

GoneSouth wrote:I don't understand how California doesn't think their exam is too hard when 60 percent of people who have been licensed as attorneys by another state can't pass the exam. Could you imagine this in any other field? Would California ever get away with rejecting 60 percent of out-of-state doctors? It's a joke



I think they know. I passed NC in 2013 1st try, now NC is becoming very difficult to pass also. They are slowing down entrance from for profit schools/too many lawyers in general/etc. I think they are grading stringently, and know good and well what they are doing. I failed this attempt for CA, I had planned to go west for a number of reasons, And had it narrowed to CA and CO. I have a CO app in progress for reciprocity. Bar exam essays/tic-tac-toe tournament, it's all the same. Just a way to cull the heap. Bar exam essay responses aren't dealing with humans, other lawyers, judges, clerks, law enforcement, etc. This is a people profession, and the best are masters at that portion of it, I promise. A chimpanzee could organize an IRAC and apply rules to facts, it's just being lucky enough to hit a topic you were ready for. I over prepped Property for the essays, thought surely it'd be on there. Point is, you can fail these essays and be a very successful and useful lawyer. I am a perfect example of that. I guess the universe chose CO for me! If you want to practice law (which I'd advise against to begin with, LOL) then keep trying. This is just a hoop you'll eventually jump through if you want CA badly enough. I frankly don't, but I'm glad I tried.

collegebum1989

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby collegebum1989 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:18 pm

for people that did not pass, did you see your name on the page once you submitted your information? I know there were issues with names not being shown on the Friday list last year and past years too.

barjamie8

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby barjamie8 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:28 pm

For those who did not pass, I was in your shoes once and eventually passed last year. It felt like a gut punch and the worst academic experience of my life. But I dusted off my ego and worked really hard and got through it. I will never forget what I went through, but I will also remember the reward in the end. You will get through it too. I read once that 80-90% of people who keep trying will eventually pass.

When I approached the exam the second time I did not go back to a course. I think the big courses are awful and a large reason the pass rate is so low. Why are people paying so much to these courses when most of their students fail? The lectures were a waste of time. I practiced 50 MBEs every day and practiced the essays like CRAZY. I used adaptibar, BarEssays.com, and my review books/outlines. The key is practicing as many MBEs/essays as possible and then figuring out what you are doing right and wrong on the essays by comparing your practice essays to real ones on BarEssays.com and/or using a reputable tutor (if you can afford one). Do not skimp on spending quality time analyzing your essays.

Also this post from another repeater was very helpful - viewtopic.php?f=41&t=277682&p=9987596#p9987596

There is a light at the end of the tunnel! You will get there.

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MBernard

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby MBernard » Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:42 pm

jjman wrote:
GoneSouth wrote:I don't understand how California doesn't think their exam is too hard when 60 percent of people who have been licensed as attorneys by another state can't pass the exam. Could you imagine this in any other field? Would California ever get away with rejecting 60 percent of out-of-state doctors? It's a joke



I think they know. I passed NC in 2013 1st try, now NC is becoming very difficult to pass also. They are slowing down entrance from for profit schools/too many lawyers in general/etc. I think they are grading stringently, and know good and well what they are doing. I failed this attempt for CA, I had planned to go west for a number of reasons, And had it narrowed to CA and CO. I have a CO app in progress for reciprocity. Bar exam essays/tic-tac-toe tournament, it's all the same. Just a way to cull the heap. Bar exam essay responses aren't dealing with humans, other lawyers, judges, clerks, law enforcement, etc. This is a people profession, and the best are masters at that portion of it, I promise. A chimpanzee could organize an IRAC and apply rules to facts, it's just being lucky enough to hit a topic you were ready for. I over prepped Property for the essays, thought surely it'd be on there. Point is, you can fail these essays and be a very successful and useful lawyer. I am a perfect example of that. I guess the universe chose CO for me! If you want to practice law (which I'd advise against to begin with, LOL) then keep trying. This is just a hoop you'll eventually jump through if you want CA badly enough. I frankly don't, but I'm glad I tried.


Hmm, I do tend to agree that state bars in general are becoming more protectionist and increasing the difficulty. TX had a pass rate of like 45% in Feb and I can say as a matter of fact that the essays for that particular test were far more difficult than previous TX administrations (1st time they tested Computation of Oil and Gas fractional interests in eons; I could go on). Best way to prep really seems to be to go through literally every previous test admin (at least just read the past exams) as well as be prepared for anything. It’s a lot to ask of an examinee but I think you really gotta go hard in order to be safe.

As for the luck component, that can come into play. The Con Law Q was literally a verbatim repeat from a prior Ca exam (mentioned which year earlier in the thread). Grateful we didn’t have an exam like the Feb 18 exam. The hybrid topics tested in that one were literally horrifying; not entirely sure how I would’ve faired were that the case.

mathandthelaw

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby mathandthelaw » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:07 pm

MBernard wrote:
mathandthelaw wrote:I passed! Congrats to ALL who passed. To those who did not, stay strong!


Math, congrats!!! I thought you would. Glad so many of you guys I interacted with on the forum passed. Hope you all celebrate and have a chance to chill now.


Thanks so much mbernard! I thought you would pass as well. Many of the people discussing issues on this board seemed knowledgeable and explained how hard they worked to achieve this amazing accomplishment. I had confidence in us all and we did it!

barjamie8

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby barjamie8 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:01 pm

At what point do people start questioning the large expensive bar review companies? If most people are spending thousands of dollars on these courses and most people fail the exam, doesn't it sound like they are not doing a good job?

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MBernard

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby MBernard » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:24 am

barjamie8 wrote:At what point do people start questioning the large expensive bar review companies? If most people are spending thousands of dollars on these courses and most people fail the exam, doesn't it sound like they are not doing a good job?


Agreed. Don’t want to name names (of the large prep companies), but in general the large bar prep companies have a ton of weight and reputation behind them from a previous generation of legal practicioners. I think the shift to the online exercise and format brought with it more problems than benefits (tons of frivolous exercises). I self studied for both TX and Ca utilizing a myriad of different materials but originally in J17 I tried out one of the major bar prep companies. Ended up withdrawing from taking the exam because I knew I’d fail if I took the bar exam.

The program I utilized put enormous emphasis on online lectures, fill in the blank exercises, multiple choice questions concerning how well you’ve read a subject’s primer, and motivational videos. Ugh. All of it in my opinion was a massive waste of time. Time that could’ve been better spent doing actual MBEs and writing essays.

In my opinion the one thing the large bar prep companies do well is creating condensed outlines. Other than that, all you really need to do is buy adaptibar, Emmanuel S&T and practice essays on the state bar’s page. I think I only spent $500 for CA compared to like the almost $3k sticker price for a large bar prep company. Strongly reccomend self study.

justanotheruser

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby justanotheruser » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:58 am

barjamie8 wrote:At what point do people start questioning the large expensive bar review companies? If most people are spending thousands of dollars on these courses and most people fail the exam, doesn't it sound like they are not doing a good job?


There are plenty of people who pass using one of the major bar prep programs.

I passed using Adaptibar/BarEssays/etc., and think many people could do it that way as well. I feel like the biggest difference is it cuts through all the unnecessary fluff. When you follow a program, you're beholden to their schedule and progress markers. Maybe you feel more pressured to memorize/outline the conviser, etc. I feel when I went w/ Adaptibar + BarEssays, I was focusing way more on doing actual problems and 'memorizing' / learning through that.

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby a male human » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:06 am

The ideal that I recommend is using the raw materials of bar courses (e.g., outlines, model answers), but using supplements that enable you to practice and get feedback. The problem with big box programs is that there's too much time wasted on going through the motions, most notoriously the lectures most of which are just perceived value. You forget 99% of what you consume but retain what you use. Sure, if it's the first time you're studying a subject, it can be a good intro. But these feeling safe about your progress doesn't mean you're actually making progress.

bacillusanthracis

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby bacillusanthracis » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:37 pm

barprepforca wrote:Also I have to stress that whoever recommended taking 10-15 minutes from each essay to spend more time on the PT was a genius. I felt like having that extra time to nail down the PT was a must and I still had enough time on the CP and Con Law essays to adequately take them on.


This^. And I have to think it was the difference. I don't know what my score was, and I don't give AF. I passed. But I know for sure that I wrote a kickass PT, and took two hours to do it.

bacillusanthracis

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby bacillusanthracis » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:59 pm

barjamie8 wrote:For those who did not pass, I was in your shoes once and eventually passed last year. It felt like a gut punch and the worst academic experience of my life. But I dusted off my ego and worked really hard and got through it. I will never forget what I went through, but I will also remember the reward in the end. You will get through it too. I read once that 80-90% of people who keep trying will eventually pass.

When I approached the exam the second time I did not go back to a course. I think the big courses are awful and a large reason the pass rate is so low. Why are people paying so much to these courses when most of their students fail? The lectures were a waste of time. I practiced 50 MBEs every day and practiced the essays like CRAZY. I used adaptibar, BarEssays.com, and my review books/outlines. The key is practicing as many MBEs/essays as possible and then figuring out what you are doing right and wrong on the essays by comparing your practice essays to real ones on BarEssays.com and/or using a reputable tutor (if you can afford one). Do not skimp on spending quality time analyzing your essays.

Also this post from another repeater was very helpful - viewtopic.php?f=41&t=277682&p=9987596#p9987596

There is a light at the end of the tunnel! You will get there.


IMO, Barbri blows when it comes to essay writing. I worked that program hard. Twice. And both times my essay scores were just shit compared to the amount of work it seemed like I was doing. If Barbri was all that great, then California essay scores wouldn't be so low.

I do think their MBE stuff, while it does a poor job of mimicking the style of the real test, is quite comprehensive and covers everything one could possibly hope to know. But even then, the test throws shit like consent to fight at you, which no amount of practice is going to help you with.

I swear this thing has an element of luck to it that just shouldn't exist, and I feel extremely lucky to have passed. But I did. And since we don't get our scores when we pass, I can't honestly say what the difference was. For me, I strongly believe my PT put me over the top. I looked at past model PT answers, and I imitated that style. I also think I must have scored well on the MBE because my essays, except California Evidence and Conlaw were pretty rough.

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby barjamie8 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:25 pm

justanotheruser wrote:
barjamie8 wrote:At what point do people start questioning the large expensive bar review companies? If most people are spending thousands of dollars on these courses and most people fail the exam, doesn't it sound like they are not doing a good job?


There are plenty of people who pass using one of the major bar prep programs.

I passed using Adaptibar/BarEssays/etc., and think many people could do it that way as well. I feel like the biggest difference is it cuts through all the unnecessary fluff. When you follow a program, you're beholden to their schedule and progress markers. Maybe you feel more pressured to memorize/outline the conviser, etc. I feel when I went w/ Adaptibar + BarEssays, I was focusing way more on doing actual problems and 'memorizing' / learning through that.


While plenty of people pass with the major prep programs, simple logic tells you that most people don't. Yet they charge crazy amounts of money, refuse to release their pass rates, and still tell everyone that they are the way to go (even though a majority of their students fail). They do work for some people for sure but they also deserve a lot of the blame for the thousands of students that take them and fail, many of which take additional loans to pay for their obscene prices.

bacillusanthracis

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby bacillusanthracis » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:02 pm

barjamie8 wrote:While plenty of people pass with the major prep programs, simple logic tells you that most people don't. Yet they charge crazy amounts of money, refuse to release their pass rates, and still tell everyone that they are the way to go (even though a majority of their students fail). They do work for some people for sure but they also deserve a lot of the blame for the thousands of students that take them and fail, many of which take additional loans to pay for their obscene prices.


Yep. They're one size fits all programs, and at this point, it's obvious that doesn't work for most people. I submitted multiple essays for feedback to Barbri when I did their program (twice), and you wanna know how many times I got feedback for those essays from Barbri?

Zero.

California wants more (or something) from its test takers. I happen to think California grading practices are bullshit, but that's the way it is, and Barbri isn't fulfilling the needs of its customers. I think Barbri does the lawyerly thing and includes too much information, so that when the answers come out, they can say, "See, that was in our outline!" Never mind that the amount of information they hit you with, and the relatively short amount of time one has to learn it all and coherently assemble it is difficult.

People certainly do pass using Barbri, Themeis, etc., but in California at least, those people are clearly a minority.

And remember this too: last year California got a little bit more full of shit when it stopped counting people who didn't finish the exam. So that 27% pass rate in February was actually ~22%. This July's 40% pass rate is really ~35%. All I know is that those numbers don't speak too highly of the big box programs.

I feel great about passing this thing. I'm so glad it's over. But I do feel terrible for those who worked their ass off and didn't make it. I've been there, and there is no reward for the effort, only delay, severe loss of income, and all the bad shit that comes with that.

For those who didn't pass. Keep at it, and if you gave everything you had to whatever program you used, then find a different program or maybe listen to those who self studied. Best of luck. I sincerely mean that.

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby Underoath » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:23 pm

I was on vacation in a foreign country. I left my ID card with my info back home. I couldn’t check results, but now I’m back in America. I want to know my results. Can someone confirm that if I check the admissions page it’ll reflect either “requirement satisfied” or “requirement not satisfied” at this time? Basically is the site up to date.

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby a male human » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:30 pm

Underoath wrote:I was on vacation in a foreign country. I left my ID card with my info back home. I couldn’t check results, but now I’m back in America. I want to know my results. Can someone confirm that if I check the admissions page it’ll reflect either “requirement satisfied” or “requirement not satisfied” at this time? Basically is the site up to date.

I think it will reflect one of those two. Can't you just check your name here to confirm? https://apps.calbar.ca.gov/exam/default.aspx

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby justanotheruser » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:41 pm

barjamie8 wrote:
justanotheruser wrote:
barjamie8 wrote:At what point do people start questioning the large expensive bar review companies? If most people are spending thousands of dollars on these courses and most people fail the exam, doesn't it sound like they are not doing a good job?


There are plenty of people who pass using one of the major bar prep programs.

I passed using Adaptibar/BarEssays/etc., and think many people could do it that way as well. I feel like the biggest difference is it cuts through all the unnecessary fluff. When you follow a program, you're beholden to their schedule and progress markers. Maybe you feel more pressured to memorize/outline the conviser, etc. I feel when I went w/ Adaptibar + BarEssays, I was focusing way more on doing actual problems and 'memorizing' / learning through that.


While plenty of people pass with the major prep programs, simple logic tells you that most people don't. Yet they charge crazy amounts of money, refuse to release their pass rates, and still tell everyone that they are the way to go (even though a majority of their students fail). They do work for some people for sure but they also deserve a lot of the blame for the thousands of students that take them and fail, many of which take additional loans to pay for their obscene prices.


Well, anecdotally, the vast majority of my friends (who would tell me whether or not they passed the bar) passed 'despite' taking a major bar prep. Having taken both the bar prep and passed as I've described (failed the bar here multiple times), I can tell you the study materials matter less than how motivated/disciplined/regimented the individual person studying for the bar is. But I agree with you, the bar prep companies can definitely make lots of improvements and should be held more accountable, especially given how much they charge students.

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby Underoath » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:48 pm

a male human wrote:
Underoath wrote:I was on vacation in a foreign country. I left my ID card with my info back home. I couldn’t check results, but now I’m back in America. I want to know my results. Can someone confirm that if I check the admissions page it’ll reflect either “requirement satisfied” or “requirement not satisfied” at this time? Basically is the site up to date.

I think it will reflect one of those two. Can't you just check your name here to confirm? https://apps.calbar.ca.gov/exam/default.aspx


Omg you’re a life saver. I didn’t know that was out. I thought Monday. Ok...I’m not going to check now. I want to wait a little longer until tonight when my vacation is over. Reading this forum is freaking me out because my PT was for sure a 50.

arose928

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby arose928 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:28 pm

barjamie8 wrote:
justanotheruser wrote:
barjamie8 wrote:At what point do people start questioning the large expensive bar review companies? If most people are spending thousands of dollars on these courses and most people fail the exam, doesn't it sound like they are not doing a good job?


There are plenty of people who pass using one of the major bar prep programs.

I passed using Adaptibar/BarEssays/etc., and think many people could do it that way as well. I feel like the biggest difference is it cuts through all the unnecessary fluff. When you follow a program, you're beholden to their schedule and progress markers. Maybe you feel more pressured to memorize/outline the conviser, etc. I feel when I went w/ Adaptibar + BarEssays, I was focusing way more on doing actual problems and 'memorizing' / learning through that.


While plenty of people pass with the major prep programs, simple logic tells you that most people don't. Yet they charge crazy amounts of money, refuse to release their pass rates, and still tell everyone that they are the way to go (even though a majority of their students fail). They do work for some people for sure but they also deserve a lot of the blame for the thousands of students that take them and fail, many of which take additional loans to pay for their obscene prices.


FWIW Themis does publish its pass rates, and they show that in general, people who take Themis have a higher pass rate: https://www.themisbar.com/pass-rates

In some states the difference isn't that huge, but you do at least have that information before you drop a bunch of money on them. If you complete the majority of the course though, for most states the pass rate is like 20% higher.

#thisisnotanad

Underoath

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby Underoath » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:00 pm

didnt pass again.....wow just wow.

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby a male human » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:02 pm

Underoath wrote:didnt pass again.....wow just wow.

That really sucks. Pass rate was close to 40% (and something like 16% for repeaters), the lowest it's been on record for July. Very tough exam.

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby nathan123 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:04 pm

Has anyone here sat for AZ? Just passed CA, and now thinking about taking the AZ bar.

I believe my options are as follows...I can take the UBE (but I would have do both the written and MBE portions I am assuming), or I can just sit for the AZ bar.

If I sit for the AZ exam do I have to do both the written and MBE portion as well?

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Re: 2018 July California Bar

Postby Underoath » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:17 pm

a male human wrote:
Underoath wrote:didnt pass again.....wow just wow.

That really sucks. Pass rate was close to 40% (and something like 16% for repeaters), the lowest it's been on record for July. Very tough exam.


I’m just over the whole exam now. It’s been too long dealing with this. Then the doubt of if I’ll ever pass sets in.



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