FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

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perplixityparanoia

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby perplixityparanoia » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:56 pm

That's exactly where I am. I feel like MBE is improving but my essay answers differ vastly from the model answers. Also the length of my answers are short.

Should a passing answer be as long and dense as the model answers?

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a male human

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby a male human » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:03 pm

perplixityparanoia wrote:That's exactly where I am. I feel like MBE is improving but my essay answers differ vastly from the model answers. Also the length of my answers are short.

Should a passing answer be as long and dense as the model answers?

No, use model and sample answers as a learning tool, but there's no need to replicate them. The only thing you should try to emulate is getting the issues first and foremost, and then applicable rules that you can apply to the facts.

Prep companies and law school tend to focus on the “R” and “A” and assume that you already know how to find the “I” naturally. That’s funny (not really) because an issue that’s never raised, or an irrelevant issue, is completely worthless.

It’s the other way around...

“I” is the most important component. Once you get the “I” and “R” down, the rest takes care of itself. You're pretty much home free.

In other words, issue identification is where everything starts. You get ZERO points for an issue that you never raise, even if you know the corresponding rule. An IRAC can’t sprout from a seed that's never planted.

My second time around, I focused on having issues down pat, instead of being able to recite beautiful rule statements (which were beautiful, except memorizing or being able to recite rules is useless if you can’t use them properly).

Particularly, I checked that I got all the issues correctly. Graders only care about what they see. If they don’t see the fruits of the seed you planted, then you’re not getting points.

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby macgirl » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:37 pm

Hey everyone!

Is anyone doing Themis? I have the books but i'm not doing the online program and i'm trying to figure out what my quiz scores equate to. Is anyone doing Adaptibar? I was thinking of signing up- thoughts????

M

kc128

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby kc128 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:22 am

macgirl wrote:Hey everyone!

Is anyone doing Themis? I have the books but i'm not doing the online program and i'm trying to figure out what my quiz scores equate to. Is anyone doing Adaptibar? I was thinking of signing up- thoughts????

M


Just did Themis MBE Exam # (just torts, contracts, and property). The online exam said that the average score was 56% correct, so like 25-26 out of 45. This seems low to me, but who knows?

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RCinDNA

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby RCinDNA » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:15 pm

Spent most of December going through 5 out of the 8 MBE subjects. Now it definitely feels like time to escalate the effort. I looked at BarBri's schedule for the next few weeks and it seems to me that they should have unlocked the program in December officially instead of going through the early start program. Totally get that February is the retakers bar but it seems mighty late to ask people to learn all of these subjects. I definitely had my first moment today when I looked at the calendar, saw my iffy Adaptibar score from this morning, and thought :oops: while contemplating other career paths.

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby a male human » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:36 pm

RCinDNA wrote:Spent most of December going through 5 out of the 8 MBE subjects. Now it definitely feels like time to escalate the effort. I looked at BarBri's schedule for the next few weeks and it seems to me that they should have unlocked the program in December officially instead of going through the early start program. Totally get that February is the retakers bar but it seems mighty late to ask people to learn all of these subjects. I definitely had my first moment today when I looked at the calendar, saw my iffy Adaptibar score from this morning, and thought :oops: while contemplating other career paths.

That's great! Embarrassment is the best way I've found to learn a lesson. Get the fails out of the way first. No one's judging you but yourself. Wouldn’t you rather fail now than on the real thing?

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby MRSP » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:34 pm

macgirl wrote:Hey everyone!

Is anyone doing Themis? I have the books but i'm not doing the online program and i'm trying to figure out what my quiz scores equate to. Is anyone doing Adaptibar? I was thinking of signing up- thoughts????

M


Hi I am using Adaptibar and I love it! I need to do more questions daily but I really love how they analyze your performance and timing, and the explanations.

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby MRSP » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:36 pm

RCinDNA wrote:Spent most of December going through 5 out of the 8 MBE subjects. Now it definitely feels like time to escalate the effort. I looked at BarBri's schedule for the next few weeks and it seems to me that they should have unlocked the program in December officially instead of going through the early start program. Totally get that February is the retakers bar but it seems mighty late to ask people to learn all of these subjects. I definitely had my first moment today when I looked at the calendar, saw my iffy Adaptibar score from this morning, and thought :oops: while contemplating other career paths.


Same here at having that moment! I am behind on my goal using Adaptibar (although I love the program!). Needing to do about 40-50 questions a day at this point and really ramp up my MEE practice. Is anyone else using Adaptibar? How is it going for you so far? What percentages are you hitting?

What is everyone's study plan from now until February? Definitely great to support each other in here!

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby RCinDNA » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:02 pm

MRSP wrote:What is everyone's study plan from now until February? Definitely great to support each other in here!


I will be doing a battery of the Big 7 (but really 8 because CrimLaw and CrimPro) where I do 4-5 hours of just going through outlines, flash cards, making charts, outlining a few essays, and then 2 hours of that subject's MBE. I'll probably do that over the weekend. I can get through four subjects that way (two per day), and occasionally review a minor subject when I feel burnt out - nothing like reviewing Equity and realizing it was only 10 pages in the BarBri book. It kind of helps to pair certain subjects together. And it sounds traumatic until I think of the all day binges I did in finals - 14 hours a day still leaves you 10, and your body only requires sleep for 5-8 so...

Making mini-outlines - these are really just attack charts where I go through and sketch out the major areas and subtopics, and then plug in details I learn from the MBE answer explanations.

I'm also diagramming like crazy. I don't see any other way to keep Hearsay Exceptions, Rule Against Perpetuities, and Rule Against Restraints on Alienation straight otherwise.

As you can tell, I do not want to take the bar ever again. I was looking up the rules for reciprocity last night.

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby Banana1 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:15 pm

Hey guys!

Hope studying is going well. I have a question on future interests

O conveys to A for life then A s first child reaches 21

So A s child has contingent remainder and O has reversion right? But when A dies if As child is not 21 then will O or his heirs hold it subject to springing executory interest and once B becomes 21 it will divest?

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby JoLaw824 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:23 am

macgirl wrote:Hey everyone!

Is anyone doing Themis? I have the books but i'm not doing the online program and i'm trying to figure out what my quiz scores equate to. Is anyone doing Adaptibar? I was thinking of signing up- thoughts????

M


Yes and I'm at about 50% for PA. I had my first total mental breakdown cry-fest and am just trying to get myself in the mental headspace necessary to get everything I need to get done in the remaining 4.5 weeks.

I am a re-taker. Failed by 4 points and put the bar on the shelf for a year while I took a breather from anything school-related. Did law school part time while working, studying while working, taking a solid 3 weeks off of work starting Feb 7.

I AM OVERWHELMED.

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby MRSP » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:41 am

JoLaw824 wrote:
macgirl wrote:Hey everyone!

Is anyone doing Themis? I have the books but i'm not doing the online program and i'm trying to figure out what my quiz scores equate to. Is anyone doing Adaptibar? I was thinking of signing up- thoughts????

M


Yes and I'm at about 50% for PA. I had my first total mental breakdown cry-fest and am just trying to get myself in the mental headspace necessary to get everything I need to get done in the remaining 4.5 weeks.

I am a re-taker. Failed by 4 points and put the bar on the shelf for a year while I took a breather from anything school-related. Did law school part time while working, studying while working, taking a solid 3 weeks off of work starting Feb 7.

I AM OVERWHELMED.




Hang in there Jo! I know how you feel, I just had a baby and am behind in my prep compared to what I planned. What is your study plan? Do you have a goal of a certain amount of MBEs to complete each day? And are you doing Adaptinbar by chance?

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby JoLaw824 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:20 am

MRSP wrote:
JoLaw824 wrote:
macgirl wrote:Hey everyone!

Is anyone doing Themis? I have the books but i'm not doing the online program and i'm trying to figure out what my quiz scores equate to. Is anyone doing Adaptibar? I was thinking of signing up- thoughts????

M


Yes and I'm at about 50% for PA. I had my first total mental breakdown cry-fest and am just trying to get myself in the mental headspace necessary to get everything I need to get done in the remaining 4.5 weeks.

I am a re-taker. Failed by 4 points and put the bar on the shelf for a year while I took a breather from anything school-related. Did law school part time while working, studying while working, taking a solid 3 weeks off of work starting Feb 7.

I AM OVERWHELMED.




Hang in there Jo! I know how you feel, I just had a baby and am behind in my prep compared to what I planned. What is your study plan? Do you have a goal of a certain amount of MBEs to complete each day? And are you doing Adaptinbar by chance?


I spoke with my Themis rep yesterday, and my focus right now is taking a look at the areas of the law I'm missing from an MBE perspective, learning those rules, and practicing MBE questions. I still am doing the program, but this weekend I'll be dedicating a day to figuring out what I don't know and learning it. I've gotten through all my MBE subjects and a good chunk of essay topics, so I am in good shape as far as the program is concerned; however, I need to know the substantive law a lot better... lots of writing and talking to myself out loud this weekend haha. Other than that, doing the assignments as far as graded essays and MBE questions. Keeping this grind until the exam and praying for the best!!!!

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RCinDNA

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby RCinDNA » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:11 pm

perplixityparanoia wrote:That's exactly where I am. I feel like MBE is improving but my essay answers differ vastly from the model answers. Also the length of my answers are short.

Should a passing answer be as long and dense as the model answers?


Short answer: no, those model answers are not written under timed conditions and they are written by experts and/or examiners who know what is being tested. Annoying answer: it depends - if there is a lot of substantive law and judicial considerations, then yes, it actually should be longer and more dense but if you are hitting the relevant subtopics and discussing the same thig as the model answer in a more clear and concise manner, then you are on the right path.

What I find is that listing out the rules and their elements first should set you up to find the issues. There will generally be facts indicating one of the elements are not satisfied but for an exception or requiring a very specific legal rule (i.e. in contracts, release of a legal claim can qualify as consideration if IIRC the releasor believes it was valid & there was no preexisting legal duty - so in a fact pattern, the issue might be “Did Party A believe there was a valid legal claim?). Seems counter-intuitive but your brain naturally doee this when you know a subject cold. It can be helpful to outline for a few minutes first so by the time you start drafting, you’ve reverse engineered a strong intro and are just throwing in the conclusion/decision and analyzing.

Also, it may help to outline a “successul” answer open book to see why achieving those are possible but not realistic. If you look at BarBri’s format for model essays or the NCBE’s models, you will see that there is no “right” way but definitely “wrong” ways to write. I use two different formats for essays and I received 5s on two of my essays this summer and I found my weaker scores were in subjects I hated and was simply not prepared enough for:
1). Pyramid Method - because it results in a weighty intro via a large Rule and then narrows since the application and conclusion are so short

Conclusion (Yes/No). Short statement summing up decision (basically answering the question presented).

Issue

Rule (this is where the pyramid starts)
-state which law applies “Under the laws of...” or “Under the xxx...”
-state general principles
-go through every sub issue’s rule of law
-state exceptions/defenses/applicability

Analysis (go in the same order as how you addressed the above

Conclusion (make sure it matches the above)

2). The I care about Flow But I really should not because the examiners don’t care but please give me points thx method

Conclusion (Yes/No). Short statement summing up decision (basically answering the question presented).

Issue

Rule 1 (same as above but key difference is that I go from general to specific)

Analysis of Rule 1 and Facts

Conclusion As to Rule 1

Exception 1/Defense 1/etc. (typically intro this with “However,...” (e.g. “However, under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure/whatever, such and such...”)

Analysis of Exception 1

Conclusion as to Exception 1/Ultimate Conclusion

I find that approach 1 is what I see actual responses look like while Approach 2 results in what you see for the model answers, which is why they look so intimidating. I am not a bar examiner and am obviously re-taking but just looking at my essays with the strongest scores did show something interesting in terms of flow. Student answers tend to follow Approach 1/CIRAC but I think my knowledge of the law and format of Approach 2 highlighted more issues whereas they may get buried in Approach 1. You end up doing the multiple CIRAC method with Approach 2 which just seems so much more lawyerly and presentable. But you can only get there after mastering and practicing Approach 1. If your Issue statements are off, for example, Approach 2 is going to highlight that weaker area so much more because they stand alone.

If you are taking BarBri, it may be helpful to compare the answers to FedCivPro Question 2 and Question 3...then compare them to the travesty that is the answer to Question 8. The former two approaches are just so much cleaner but all of them are “correct” under BarBri’s rules. Ultimately, what happens if you know a rule cold is that if it is a narrow question, you can write a succint answer, but if it is longer or requires more analysis, being able to flag that up front helps because if your practice answer is skimpy in comparison, it means you can outline straight from the model or open book to see what you missed and then that law gets “stuck” in your head. I like to think of each topic as an opportunity to mini-outline so there are general topic-specific phrases I am so used to typing that my stronger topic essay responses just have more meat - remembering crap like FRE 403 is the code provision that touches on the probative vs prejudicial analysis in Evidence or the different ways a corporation can be validly served just adds more to your topic and makes it easier to throw those in while your brain is working overdrive to structure the rest of the answer. You want to be relevant but you also want to use the terms and concepts that build meat around whatever elements apply to show general familiarity of the topic (which is probably why no single applicant that i know of has ever gotten straight 5s or 6s).

I am definitely over-caffeinated today hence the long answer but hopefully this helps you break down why the model answers can seem so long. Not every answer needs to be that verbose and I think you would be in trouble if an answer that just required you to say Yes/No and then list out the elements resulted in you trying to write a longer response when it was not needed.
Last edited by RCinDNA on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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bretby

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby bretby » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:05 pm

Did anyone take the BARBRI practice MBE? I took it yesterday and was really surprised both by where I did well and where I did poorly. Was also surprised that I had so much time left over for each session (between 30 and 45 minutes). Good to have a full practice under my belt, but need to keep the anxiety fires burning to keep me going for this last month.

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RCinDNA

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby RCinDNA » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:34 pm

bretby wrote:Did anyone take the BARBRI practice MBE? I took it yesterday and was really surprised both by where I did well and where I did poorly. Was also surprised that I had so much time left over for each session (between 30 and 45 minutes). Good to have a full practice under my belt, but need to keep the anxiety fires burning to keep me going for this last month.


Mines is this Saturday.

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby dcbartaker » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:21 pm

Anyone have an idea of what a passing score on each MEE essay would be in DC? Should we be shooting for a 4/6 or 5/6,etc on essays to get the magic 133? What about MPTs?

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby KeepPushing1234 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:24 pm

MRSP wrote:
JoLaw824 wrote:
macgirl wrote:Hey everyone!

Is anyone doing Themis? I have the books but i'm not doing the online program and i'm trying to figure out what my quiz scores equate to. Is anyone doing Adaptibar? I was thinking of signing up- thoughts????

M


Yes and I'm at about 50% for PA. I had my first total mental breakdown cry-fest and am just trying to get myself in the mental headspace necessary to get everything I need to get done in the remaining 4.5 weeks.

I am a re-taker. Failed by 4 points and put the bar on the shelf for a year while I took a breather from anything school-related. Did law school part time while working, studying while working, taking a solid 3 weeks off of work starting Feb 7.

I AM OVERWHELMED.




Hang in there Jo! I know how you feel, I just had a baby and am behind in my prep compared to what I planned. What is your study plan? Do you have a goal of a certain amount of MBEs to complete each day? And are you doing Adaptinbar by chance?


I'm taking Themis right now. I'm at 66%. I like it so far, but I am feeling overwhelmed in trying memorize all the substantive law. I'm also a re-taker who had to take a breather from academia for mental health reasons. My goal is to just to keep pushing and practicing as much as possible and writing down the substantive law as much as possible for memorization purposes.

perplixityparanoia

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby perplixityparanoia » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:21 pm

dcbartaker wrote:Anyone have an idea of what a passing score on each MEE essay would be in DC? Should we be shooting for a 4/6 or 5/6,etc on essays to get the magic 133? What about MPTs?


If anyone can provide any information on this that will be very helpful. When I went to review my DC bar exam essays it seemed the graders were tough and the grading was arbitrary.

New York posted sample model answers on their website for July 2017MEE https://www.nybarexam.org/ExamQuestions/JULY2017QA.pdf

These answers look reasonable. Basically any answer that followed basic IRAC requirement got picked for model answer.

DC provided the NCBE model answer when I went to review my exam and it seemed to me DC bar graders expect answers to be like a NCBE model answer. That is an enormously difficult task under the time pressure to have a polished answer that is similar to NCBE’s model answer.

If anyone has any idea about DC MEE grading per Essay required for passing, please chime in.

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby ubebarstudying » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:49 pm

Ok, let's play the honest game....
How much have YOU completed of your bar prep program? https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/ST5XY3D

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby JoLaw824 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:42 pm

KeepPushing1234 wrote:
MRSP wrote:
JoLaw824 wrote:
macgirl wrote:Hey everyone!

Is anyone doing Themis? I have the books but i'm not doing the online program and i'm trying to figure out what my quiz scores equate to. Is anyone doing Adaptibar? I was thinking of signing up- thoughts????

M


Yes and I'm at about 50% for PA. I had my first total mental breakdown cry-fest and am just trying to get myself in the mental headspace necessary to get everything I need to get done in the remaining 4.5 weeks.

I am a re-taker. Failed by 4 points and put the bar on the shelf for a year while I took a breather from anything school-related. Did law school part time while working, studying while working, taking a solid 3 weeks off of work starting Feb 7.

I AM OVERWHELMED.




Hang in there Jo! I know how you feel, I just had a baby and am behind in my prep compared to what I planned. What is your study plan? Do you have a goal of a certain amount of MBEs to complete each day? And are you doing Adaptinbar by chance?


I'm taking Themis right now. I'm at 66%. I like it so far, but I am feeling overwhelmed in trying memorize all the substantive law. I'm also a re-taker who had to take a breather from academia for mental health reasons. My goal is to just to keep pushing and practicing as much as possible and writing down the substantive law as much as possible for memorization purposes.


Same! I'm only at 55% but I've been working full time. I thwarted worrying about staying "on task" this week and have just been going crazy memorizing the law of MBE topics. Once I take the practice MBE next week I am going to dive back into Essays. But, this is what I know I need to do to learn. Graded assignments and the assigned MBE questions I'm still plugging away at.

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby JoLaw824 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:44 pm

I purchased colored sharpies and colored pens and have been writing things out on posterboard paper (not huge ones) and hanging it on my walls (I luckily live alone). I know it may seem nuts (I am definitely losing sanity by the day), but I feel like that has helped me? Amazon Prime has it all.

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby Respondeat_Inferior » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:19 pm

KeepPushing1234 wrote:I'm taking Themis right now. I'm at 66%. I like it so far, but I am feeling overwhelmed in trying memorize all the substantive law. I'm also a re-taker who had to take a breather from academia for mental health reasons. My goal is to just to keep pushing and practicing as much as possible and writing down the substantive law as much as possible for memorization purposes.


Themis over here too, normally there's a thread for just Themis or just Barbri folks or etc. I feel like I'm missing out on being able to actually talk about Themis with anyone. :P I'm at 86%, did all the practice question sets and now I'm just doing essays and the stuff that doesn't unlock until a certain date.

I was finally at a point where I felt comfortable with my MBE scores, averaging 75% or so on the question sets for the last 10 sets, and then that second practice exam set came out and made me feel inadequate again with all the little things I just hadn't covered in forever. I got 65%, which isn't bad I guess, but for being 2300 MBE questions deep I expected a little more than minimum passing threshold. I also definitely got got by the tricky wording of the questions more than once.

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby kc128 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:43 pm

Respondeat_Inferior wrote:
KeepPushing1234 wrote:I'm taking Themis right now. I'm at 66%. I like it so far, but I am feeling overwhelmed in trying memorize all the substantive law. I'm also a re-taker who had to take a breather from academia for mental health reasons. My goal is to just to keep pushing and practicing as much as possible and writing down the substantive law as much as possible for memorization purposes.


Themis over here too, normally there's a thread for just Themis or just Barbri folks or etc. I feel like I'm missing out on being able to actually talk about Themis with anyone. :P I'm at 86%, did all the practice question sets and now I'm just doing essays and the stuff that doesn't unlock until a certain date.

I was finally at a point where I felt comfortable with my MBE scores, averaging 75% or so on the question sets for the last 10 sets, and then that second practice exam set came out and made me feel inadequate again with all the little things I just hadn't covered in forever. I got 65%, which isn't bad I guess, but for being 2300 MBE questions deep I expected a little more than minimum passing threshold. I also definitely got got by the tricky wording of the questions more than once.


Themis Forum created :)

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Re: FEB 2018 Bar exam Hangout thread!

Postby Banana1 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:06 am

Hey Guys,

Hope studying is going well!

Can someone help me understand rule 1367 in in preclusion in diversity cases?

So D can bring in third parties and P cant? what if third party destroys diversity jurisdiction bt P and D2?

I dont get what the rule means as to claims by existing plaintifs against impleader etc.



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