Venting Thread

spartan4life
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Venting Thread

Postby spartan4life » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:11 pm

I quit to study for the CA bar exam, I'm waiting for my results, and can't get a damn job. :x

Waiting for these results is so frustrating. So much hinges on this damn test. I'm frustrated, upset, mad, BUT I'm like fuck it. Life can only get better when it's shitty.
Last edited by spartan4life on Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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kellyfrost
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Re: Venting Page

Postby kellyfrost » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:16 pm

What geographic area are you wanting to work in?

What area of law are you wanting to work in?

spartan4life
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Re: Venting Page

Postby spartan4life » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:33 pm

I live in Central California and want to do criminal defense. The public defenders office wants volunteers but does not pay.

The only job openings are for permanent legal assistant positions. Making it as a lawyer seems rough right now. I don't even recommend it to anyone who says they want to do it.

I know I know I'll eventually find something. I wanted to create a page for other grads to vent and are going through the same experience.

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cnk1220
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Re: Venting Page

Postby cnk1220 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:36 pm

spartan4life wrote:I live in Central California and want to do criminal defense. The public defenders office wants volunteers but does not pay.

The only job openings are for permanent legal assistant positions. Making it as a lawyer seems rough right now. I don't even recommend it to anyone who says they want to do it.

I know I know I'll eventually find something. I wanted to create a page for other grads to vent and are going through the same experience.



I'm in the same boat (diff state), just applying to jobs and hopelessly waiting on feb results. I spend a lot of time at the gym lol, thats the only plus side of funemployment

spartan4life
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Re: Venting Page

Postby spartan4life » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:02 pm

@cnk1220

That's awesome you go to the gym.

I've been exercising, playing video games, and applying to jobs. This was my second time taking the exam and I quit both times to study for this damn test. I can honestly say this has been the worst time of my life financially.

Praying to Jesus isn't helping either lol. It is what it is.

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cnk1220
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Re: Venting Page

Postby cnk1220 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:08 pm

spartan4life wrote:@cnk1220

That's awesome you go to the gym.

I've been exercising, playing video games, and applying to jobs. This was my second time taking the exam and I quit both times to study for this damn test. I can honestly say this has been the worst time of my life financially.

Praying to Jesus isn't helping either lol. It is what it is.



Well i'll pray we both pass! CA bar is brutal from what I've heard.

spartan4life
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Re: Venting Page

Postby spartan4life » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:18 pm

I'll do the same cnk1220!

spartan4life
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Re: Venting Page

Postby spartan4life » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:27 am

Another day another dollar.. not for this law grad. I'm still applying for jobs, any job lol while waiting for my bar results. I even applied to hotels and home improvement stores. No calls or emails from them.

Is being jobless getting to me? Sometimes it does. Sometimes I'm pissed the fuck off because I have a quality education and worked too damn hard to be this broke. I know car salesmen who make 100k and they only graduated from high school! Good for them though.

Other days when I'm pissed, I just say, "Whatever, who cares, no one understands, BUT life will get better. Stay positive." That's what I believe.

I'm on my way. Other law grads are going through the same thing. It's just a harsh reality though.

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kellyfrost
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Re: Venting Page

Postby kellyfrost » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:34 am

Maybe you should try to volunteer at the public defenders office you want to work in.

It will get your foot in the door at the office, show your interest, and hopefully help get you hired.

Plus, it will give you something to do that is productive and help take your mind off your situation or help ease it for the time being.

InterAlia1961
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Re: Venting Page

Postby InterAlia1961 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:31 am

spartan4life wrote:Another day another dollar.. not for this law grad. I'm still applying for jobs, any job lol while waiting for my bar results. I even applied to hotels and home improvement stores. No calls or emails from them.

Is being jobless getting to me? Sometimes it does. Sometimes I'm pissed the fuck off because I have a quality education and worked too damn hard to be this broke. I know car salesmen who make 100k and they only graduated from high school! Good for them though.

Other days when I'm pissed, I just say, "Whatever, who cares, no one understands, BUT life will get better. Stay positive." That's what I believe.

I'm on my way. Other law grads are going through the same thing. It's just a harsh reality though.


Ditto. No one is going to hire you once they know about the law degree, unless it's a legal support position. Let's face it, the second you have your hands on a license, you're gone. I have the same problem. I'm bored stiff. Binge watching Netflix and Amazon Prime. If you haven't seen it yet, check out The Man in the High Castle on Amazon. It'll grab you and pull you in. You'll forget about the bar exam for awhile. Better Call Saul is a winner as well. It's available on Netflix.

Of course, you can always start checking your horoscope for May. It doesn't help any more than praying. But apparently there's a full moon just as the CA results are due out. Fitting, as there is bound to be some loud and angst-filled howling.

waxecstatic
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Re: Venting Page

Postby waxecstatic » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:38 am

InterAlia1961 wrote:
spartan4life wrote:Another day another dollar.. not for this law grad. I'm still applying for jobs, any job lol while waiting for my bar results. I even applied to hotels and home improvement stores. No calls or emails from them.

Is being jobless getting to me? Sometimes it does. Sometimes I'm pissed the fuck off because I have a quality education and worked too damn hard to be this broke. I know car salesmen who make 100k and they only graduated from high school! Good for them though.

Other days when I'm pissed, I just say, "Whatever, who cares, no one understands, BUT life will get better. Stay positive." That's what I believe.

I'm on my way. Other law grads are going through the same thing. It's just a harsh reality though.


Ditto. No one is going to hire you once they know about the law degree, unless it's a legal support position. Let's face it, the second you have your hands on a license, you're gone. I have the same problem. I'm bored stiff. Binge watching Netflix and Amazon Prime. If you haven't seen it yet, check out The Man in the High Castle on Amazon. It'll grab you and pull you in. You'll forget about the bar exam for awhile. Better Call Saul is a winner as well. It's available on Netflix.

Of course, you can always start checking your horoscope for May. It doesn't help any more than praying. But apparently there's a full moon just as the CA results are due out. Fitting, as there is bound to be some loud and angst-filled howling.


Dude, I'm an attorney and there are people I went to high school with who are working as plumbers and electricians making more money. It's like having a driver's license. You can make the most of it and drive a Lambo or be saddled with a Honda Civic. Hopefully you end up closer to the former (although statistically speaking people are way closer to the latter). I only say this so you realize either way it isn't the end of the world. Good luck on your results.

LockBox
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Re: Venting Page

Postby LockBox » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:07 pm

kellyfrost wrote:Maybe you should try to volunteer at the public defenders office you want to work in.

It will get your foot in the door at the office, show your interest, and hopefully help get you hired.

Plus, it will give you something to do that is productive and help take your mind off your situation or help ease it for the time being.


This. Or sit around and complain. It's up to you.

spartan4life
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Re: Venting Page

Postby spartan4life » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:30 pm

@kellyfrost: Yes, I am going to try. I've saved a little nest egg to pay my bills so I will have to be prudent and pack my lunches and somehow save on gas.

@interalia1961: I've binged watched all of breaking bad and better call Saul. I like better call Saul better lol. You nailed it, once you have the license they know you're gone.

@waxecstatic: Crazy how we can work harder than others and they make more money. We will be fine though. Right now I just want to work (almost any job). It may be life telling me to chill out because I'm going to be working hard if I pass.

@lockbox: I want to work and it's frustrating how hard it is to get a job with so much education. I'm going to try the volunteer position, but the money I saved can only pay for so much. Gotta pay my bills, gas, and lunch so it's still difficult to volunteer with no job.

I'll be okay. I just want other law grads to know they are not alone in the struggle and to be positive.

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kellyfrost
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Re: Venting Page

Postby kellyfrost » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:44 pm

Nothing wrong with packing a lunch. Not only does it save you money, you can also eat healthier and faster (more time to work hard).

I suggest you pack a can of corn with your lunch each day. See viewtopic.php?f=10&t=273848 Plus a can of corn is very inexpensive.

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zot1
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Re: Venting Page

Postby zot1 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:02 pm

I pack a lunch every day.

Ssparker
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Re: Venting Page

Postby Ssparker » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:52 pm

Thank Gawd for this discussion topic!!! I was worried that my fellow law students/grads screwed by the CA Bar Association (and their apparent desire to keep their current members from facing competition from new law school grads) were perhaps apathetic to the complete and utter BS being thrown at us by this seemingly unethical association. If CA's Bar Exam truly protected clients from incompetent lawyers (new or otherwise) then I would have no problem with its harshness. However, what I observed in July was that many of my MOST QUALIFIED colleagues failed. (Not to bash those who passed...cuz I know several great new lawyers who did.) What's even more infuriating to me, is that their failure may incorrectly be attributed to the caliber of law school they attended. When I first started interning at PDs Offices and Legal Aid, I quickly noticed how incredibly talented my fellow interns were at schools sometimes bashed (especially by arrogant law students in chat rooms). I admit that I compared their trial skills, motion writing, and ability to effectively communicate with clients, to students at my own law school, and found myself cringing at the fact that the quality of lawyer being produced at my own school to be far inferior. I looked at the curriculum at lower tier and nonABA schools and saw that the classes offered were, for the most part, geared towards teaching students practical skills to PREPARE THEM to PRACTICE LAW (as opposed to preparing them for academia). What sucks about the bar exam, is that it doesn't really establish who is ready to start working for clients. I have become a better test taker from my second round of the Bar this Feb, but don't see how it will transfer into practice given that the writing style demanded by the exam is, in many ways, in compatible with motion writing and/or arguments via oral advocacy. I wish I had known what I do now about the absurdity of law school and the bar exam, because I would have 1) gone to law school in a different state...one w/ a reasonable bar exam, and 2) gone to a law school that offers more classes geared towards the "practice of law." Sigh...wish I had a time machine (of course I would use it to kill Hitler first though LOL).

In response to the original posts concern about hiring practices at PDs Offices, I totally agree at how heartbreaking it can be to contemplate working for free after graduating law school with so much debt. But, that's the field I want to go into too, and it seems like the majority of the qualified volunteer attorneys get hired eventually...so long as the County isn't experiencing a hiring freeze. Their are some excellent PD hiring guides for CA I found online and I would be happy to post links if anyone interested.
To all of my heartbroken comrades, stay strong. If there is another nightmarish set of bar results for this Feb's exam, then I think that we need to organize and DEMAND transparency from the CA Bar. For example, it wasn't revealed until a few months back (to my knowledge) that CA had an "MBE cut score" (please correct me if I'm wrong). Also, it doesn't seem like the CA is being intellectually honest about its grading process: for example, the CA Bar states repeatedly that they do not take off points for spelling errors, yet they leave the grader discretion to grade higher for "style and presentation"...so, if the graders are giving MORE points for perfect spelling, then they really are marking other exams down for spelling mistakes, lack of underlined headings, etc... given that they grade each exam in comparison to others (reports have said it could be a group of ten other exams ranked from best to worst...but don't think that's set in stone). They aren't honest about the fact that handwritten and typed exams are not going to recieve the same treatment. And....graders have reported spending about 30 seconds to 2 minutes on each exam (yes, I know that's similar to the time judges may take to read a motion, but different writing style there I would argue).
Lastly, in my list if admittedly bitter complaints, is that many of the "model answers" ARE WRONG ON THE LAW! Providing the wrong legal standard on which to base your argument gets you ZERO points in the courtroom! I argue that this provides an example of the "real standard" used to give a high score on the bar, which is how the exam "looks." Anyways...I admit that I could be wrong on some or all of my above speculations. But, I think the bar exam should have a lower bar to pass the exam BUT that the bar should reallocate resources to ensuring greater quality control of its members...the focus should be on protecting CLIENTS, instead of protecting Bar members from outside competition. I also think they should dump the following subjects: Businesses Associations, TWE, Community Property, and professional responsibility (since we already get a separate test for PR). Like Intellectual Property (with the Patent Bar) the aforementioned subjects could either have their own exam for those wanting to practice in those areas, it could be switched to multiple choice, or made a mandatory class requirement during law school. So, yeah.........

spartan4life
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Re: Venting Page

Postby spartan4life » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:22 am

@ssparker

I feel your pain! I studied my ass off and know the law so if I don't pass, I'm going to be hoping that these lawyers who grade our Feb. 2017 bar exams suffer a similar struggle that I go through, which is a tough time making ends meet financially.

ndp1234
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Re: Venting Thread

Postby ndp1234 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:57 pm

I know a lot of you are still in the uncertain bar results world, but I just want to vent about the ridiculousness of this profession.

WTF is the point of the UBE transfer if it's so expensive?!?! Shouldn't a mere paper exercise not cost the same or more than an actual administration of a bar exam?? I understand the C&F stuff is expensive, but if they can do that and the actual administration for the same or a lesser price, it's like these states are punishing us for not making them spend more money on us.

Also, just because we are attorneys in another jurisdiction, doesn't mean we have an employer to help us pay for the higher fee. It should be less expensive if we're already attorneys since we've already been vetted by another jurisdiction. I want to be able to open my job search to other states since I want to work in a narrowly specific industry, but I feel really handicapped economically (and that's not even considering all the random crap you have to do/pay for once licensed in other states).

I can't believe I'm still letting this stupid test get to me. :roll:

P.S. Good luck to all of you still waiting for results. All my positive thoughts go out to you.

spartan4life
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Re: Venting Thread

Postby spartan4life » Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:38 pm

Vent on. The wait for CA's bar exam results sucks. I see other grads posting their results from other states already. I studied so damn hard I really couldn't have done anything different.

sunnyhopeful
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Re: Venting Page

Postby sunnyhopeful » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:05 am

Ssparker wrote:. When I first started interning at PDs Offices and Legal Aid, I quickly noticed how incredibly talented my fellow interns were at schools sometimes bashed (especially by arrogant law students in chat rooms). I admit that I compared their trial skills, motion writing, and ability to effectively communicate with clients, to students at my own law school, and found myself cringing at the fact that the quality of lawyer being produced at my own school to be far inferior. I looked at the curriculum at lower tier and nonABA schools and saw that the classes offered were, for the most part, geared towards teaching students practical skills to PREPARE THEM to PRACTICE LAW (as opposed to preparing them for academia). What sucks about the bar exam, is that it doesn't really establish who is ready to start working for clients. I have become a better test taker from my second round of the Bar this Feb, but don't see how it will transfer into practice given that the writing style demanded by the exam is, in many ways, in compatible with motion writing and/or arguments via oral advocacy. I wish I had known what I do now about the absurdity of law school and the bar exam, because I would have 1) gone to law school in a different state...one w/ a reasonable bar exam, and 2) gone to a law school that offers more classes geared towards the "practice of law." Sigh...wish I had a time machine (of course I would use it to kill Hitler first though LOL).


Would you mind sharing which CA law school you attended, vs the ones those "practice ready" colleagues you mentioned came from?

S0M21L
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Re: Venting Thread

Postby S0M21L » Tue May 02, 2017 7:40 pm

For everyone worrying about results, write your worries down on paper before you go to bed. Then tell yourself, I've dealt with it. You'll sleep.

spartan4life
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Re: Venting Thread

Postby spartan4life » Wed May 03, 2017 3:47 am

Want to know what's really been pissing me off lately?

I still haven't found a job and have seen really great full-time jobs pass me by because of these fucking test results. I did the math and could not volunteer in my preferred field because the gas would eat up the savings I've been using to pay my bills and rent. My credit cards are almost maxed out.

Yes, this fucking exam does several things if you do not pass: (1) employers are afraid of hiring you because you may leave to study for it again, (2) you miss out on great job opportunities because you're studying again or waiting for the results, (3) if you've failed several times, you say fuck it and try using your JD to get a non-attorney job BUT you have a black eye because you didn't pass the exam, and (4) your student loans continue to increase, thus, stressing you the fuck out.

I've worked too damn hard to not pass.

Fuck you California bar examiners. If you are going to continue to keep CA's bar exam in the top 2 of difficulty in the U.S.A., then cut down the waiting time it takes to get the results. Cut it down to a month and 12 days.

[Sign] It felt good getting that off my chest.

B90
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Re: Venting Thread

Postby B90 » Wed May 03, 2017 7:42 am

spartan4life wrote:Want to know what's really been pissing me off lately?

I still haven't found a job and have seen really great full-time jobs pass me by because of these fucking test results. I did the math and could not volunteer in my preferred field because the gas would eat up the savings I've been using to pay my bills and rent. My credit cards are almost maxed out.

Yes, this fucking exam does several things if you do not pass: (1) employers are afraid of hiring you because you may leave to study for it again, (2) you miss out on great job opportunities because you're studying again or waiting for the results, (3) if you've failed several times, you say fuck it and try using your JD to get a non-attorney job BUT you have a black eye because you didn't pass the exam, and (4) your student loans continue to increase, thus, stressing you the fuck out.

I've worked too damn hard to not pass.

Fuck you California bar examiners. If you are going to continue to keep CA's bar exam in the top 2 of difficulty in the U.S.A., then cut down the waiting time it takes to get the results. Cut it down to a month and 12 days.

[Sign] It felt good getting that off my chest.


I am interested in how you came up with one month and 12 days.

Also, can we all make a pledge to NOT become sadistic little mindfuckers once we become licensed?
Presumably/allegedly the people who write/administer the bar exam suffered through it themselves and yet feel the need to turn around and haze future lawyers. Does bar pasage really remove all empathy? Is that what they do at the "swearing in" ceremony?

InterAlia1961
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Re: Venting Thread

Postby InterAlia1961 » Wed May 03, 2017 10:48 am

I'm certain the Committee of Bar Examiners for the State of California understand exactly what they are doing. The psychological pressure is unnecessary. They could speed this up. It's not 1940 in the rest of the world. It's 2017, and we have a little thing called technology that supposedly makes things faster and more accurate.

spartan4life
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Re: Venting Thread

Postby spartan4life » Wed May 03, 2017 5:20 pm

@B90: I saw somewhere that when the bar exam questions are posted on the website, the graders have finished grading the exams. If that's correct, they got done around April 1 this time around. The 12 days would be to input the pass list online and mail the pass or fail notices.

If the reason why it takes so long to post the pass list is because they are too busy working on the statistics of the exam, that needs to change.

Our livelihoods are on the line and the bar exam statistics don't help whatsoever for studying for this exam.

@InterAlia: I agree. I've spoken with people in other professions (nursing and licensed psychologists) who take multiple choice tests and receive the answers right there or within a couple of days. That's the truth.

Hopefully the CA Supreme Court also brings the hammer down on these fuckers for having no good explanation for the 1440 passing score.




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