2017 Results Thread - February Exam

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ndbigdave

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby ndbigdave » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:18 am

virgoyum wrote:Has anyone called their processor in IL to confirm Friday?


I have not, but from years passed and from reading other posters the expectation is that our processor will simply "tote the company line" and state that results will be out during the "first two weeks of April" as was stated during the exam itself.

That being said I fully expect the results tomorrow, but like you said good bet they wont actually release until the end of the business day which sucks.

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby ndbigdave » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:26 am

deceptivelyblonde wrote:I'm not sure it really matters, but I notice this happened a lot last year. The results reported via NCBE wre different (sometimes by a lot) from what was originally reported. I keep track of the pass rates each year, and normally only one or two states make changes on the final report. But this year, I counted several who were changing. Not sure why this would be happening. . . Maybe they just had an abnormally large group taking the MPRE late? But still, a 5%+ change is pretty significant imo.


I would love to know the explanation for this...

From NCBE's view I would think they would be held hostage a bit to state bars (at least those non UBE) having to report to NCBE the pass results as up to 60% of the test is "state specific" and not graded by the NCBE or controlled by them. That being said, I am aware that there are states (such as Illinois) where there is no appeal process so the results released should be the final results (of those who successfully achieve a "passing score" whether they pass the MPRE or C&F being a whole separate issue for admission to the bar). Other states (such as Michigan) DO have an appeals process so it is often times very likely that any initial passing statistics WILL increase after the appeals time. Naturally the number of successful appeals fluctuates each year and is student-by-student specific but to think it would regularly raise 5+% would seem...unusual.

What is the appeal process (if any) in North Carolina? That MAY explain a difference between the originally released pass rates and then NCBE's pass rates being posted later on. I would not think MPRE or C&F should have any effect on pass % because they may be a part of the process for admission to the bar but are wholly separate from the bar examination.

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby lolabear727 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:37 am

jtp191 wrote:Can the people that passed please tell us waiting where you were scoring on the MBE going into the test and what company you used (Adaptibar, Barbri, Kaplan, etc.) please so others can get a feel of where we might stand.



dido! Please!

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ndbigdave

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby ndbigdave » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:39 am

happyhour1122 wrote:no no, I didn't take your statement insulting.
When I say I did different, I was talking about my preparation. I threw out barbri and went with Emanuel. Studied different materials, questions and approached differently is what I meant. I am not sure what my grading is going to be....
I was NOT in the close to passing range.


I think you hit on a point with my (poorly defined) Group 1. I do believe that there are a lot of people who "studied" the first time and even did "take it seriously" simply were lead astray by bar prep companies. The second time around they did something substantively differently and received different results. I think thats the other side of the same coin in my mind - group 1 is either people who didn't really study enough or DID put in time but it wasn't ultimately productive time. You fall into the second portion of group 1 - you tried hard but the time sounds like it was not productively spent.

My GF falls into that group as well. She did BarBri and generally did the program, spending HOURS and HOURS watching/listening to lectures, filling in sheets and doing questions. As the test neared and she didnt feel like she was that prepared she started going back to how she studied in law school (going through outlines, creating her own handwritten notes to reinforce material + doing MBE questions) and felt like she got more out of her last couple weeks than her first two months. Unfortunately she did not pass the first time, but applied the lessons she learned to the second test and prepped totally differently the second time around going back to "her style." In many respects I think she spent FAR LESS time prepping, but the time spent was more productive. She still used BarBri materials, but avoided unnecessary lectures and saw her scores raise A LOT in the study-smart sections and in her own simulated tests (from 40s% and 50s% into the mid/upper 60s%). I think she also happened to have some bad luck on her essays that was corrected this second time around which also puts her a little into group 2, but ultimately I think she will pass this time around.

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby GamecockEsq » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:41 am

happyhour1122 wrote:
ndbigdave wrote:
happyhour1122 wrote:
I took both exams seriously
I did very different this time

Hopefully I passed.


I did not mean to sound insulting at all, just a general observation and attempted explanation to the question posted.

Though your statement begs my question - you said you did "very different" this time, but then mention you hopefully passed. How do you know you did very different? Gut feeling? Perhaps you fell into my second group, someone who was already in the passing range but needed some luck or essays to fall their way this time? Obviously I dont know your first scores, the new scores and what (if anything) you did differently to prepare.


no no, I didn't take your statement insulting.
When I say I did different, I was talking about my preparation. I threw out barbri and went with Emanuel. Studied different materials, questions and approached differently is what I meant. I am not sure what my grading is going to be....
I was NOT in the close to passing range.



I would argue that the fact that someone is retaking the exam has little to do with intelligence or seriousness (although as a mentor, I have noticed a growing trend in rising 3Ls to not take the bar as seriously as they should - until they actually hit the exam day and panic) but has more to do with individualized learning. I can only really speak from my experience and from witnessing my peers, but as we all know Kaplan and Barbri are shoved down our throats and those programs are only helpful to such an extent. I mean, really, who actually benefits from those lectures? This is my *cringe* third time taking the bar. The first two times, I used Kaplan. Kaplan has great materials, and most importantly, probably the best MBE questions out there. But throwing a dumpster truck amount of information at a student, telling them to learn it, and then do practice essays and questions without real and quality driven feedback is just not how many people succeed. This time around, I worked exclusively with my bar prep professor from law school and together we figured out where I was missing points and why. By the time bar week rolled around, I was ready - or as ready as anyone could ever be rolling into the bar exam. It just takes figuring out what works for you - and not what bar companies tell you works - that leads to success.

Furthermore, passing the bar exam on the first shot has absolutely no merit on how you would be as an attorney (in my humble opinion). I know many many people who passed the bar on their first shot and I wouldn't trust them to pick up my sandwich from Jimmy Johns. Not that this point was argued against or anything.. just my two cents. :)

Finally, good vibes sent to everyone! This waiting game is by far the worst part of this whole process.. all fingers and toes crossed!

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby lolabear727 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:45 am

happyhour1122 wrote:I just re-read released NY answer model (I really have nothing better to do).
I can't believe they wrote that in 3 hours. Especially the MPT from july 2016. Its really good.



Those model answers people can suck it! :roll: That is not possible... I'm not going to compare myself to that writing god or goddess. My "me" was plenty enough to pass FL. I'm hoping it is enough to pass NY. I'm here with you. I'll just be here rummaging though forums hoping to hear lots of people passing and the 25 experimental questions not messing too badly with people.

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby Anderson88 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:02 am

lolabear727 wrote:
jtp191 wrote:Can the people that passed please tell us waiting where you were scoring on the MBE going into the test and what company you used (Adaptibar, Barbri, Kaplan, etc.) please so others can get a feel of where we might stand.



dido! Please!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-fWDrZSiZs

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby happyhour1122 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:05 am

ndbigdave wrote:
happyhour1122 wrote:no no, I didn't take your statement insulting.
When I say I did different, I was talking about my preparation. I threw out barbri and went with Emanuel. Studied different materials, questions and approached differently is what I meant. I am not sure what my grading is going to be....
I was NOT in the close to passing range.


I think you hit on a point with my (poorly defined) Group 1. I do believe that there are a lot of people who "studied" the first time and even did "take it seriously" simply were lead astray by bar prep companies. The second time around they did something substantively differently and received different results. I think thats the other side of the same coin in my mind - group 1 is either people who didn't really study enough or DID put in time but it wasn't ultimately productive time. You fall into the second portion of group 1 - you tried hard but the time sounds like it was not productively spent.

My GF falls into that group as well. She did BarBri and generally did the program, spending HOURS and HOURS watching/listening to lectures, filling in sheets and doing questions. As the test neared and she didnt feel like she was that prepared she started going back to how she studied in law school (going through outlines, creating her own handwritten notes to reinforce material + doing MBE questions) and felt like she got more out of her last couple weeks than her first two months. Unfortunately she did not pass the first time, but applied the lessons she learned to the second test and prepped totally differently the second time around going back to "her style." In many respects I think she spent FAR LESS time prepping, but the time spent was more productive. She still used BarBri materials, but avoided unnecessary lectures and saw her scores raise A LOT in the study-smart sections and in her own simulated tests (from 40s% and 50s% into the mid/upper 60s%). I think she also happened to have some bad luck on her essays that was corrected this second time around which also puts her a little into group 2, but ultimately I think she will pass this time around.



I am in the exact position as your GF. I hope we both pass.
Yes, I studied hard and took it very seriously, but it took me some time to realize (or perhaps I am one of the minor group of people) that must approach lessons differently. I did everything what Barbri told me to do. After my 1st exam failure, I knew Barbri wasn't working for me not because I failed but because I viewed questions and answers so differently, I ended up missing the issues both in MBE and essays. This time, I used emanuel, all 3 versions, still used Barbri questions just cos I was out of questions. I really hope this time it will make a hug difference. I really wouldn't know what else to do if I failed again this time. Perhaps I'll try Adaptbar next time.

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby ndbigdave » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:07 am

GamecockEsq wrote:I would argue that the fact that someone is retaking the exam has little to do with intelligence or seriousness (although as a mentor, I have noticed a growing trend in rising 3Ls to not take the bar as seriously as they should - until they actually hit the exam day and panic) but has more to do with individualized learning. I can only really speak from my experience and from witnessing my peers, but as we all know Kaplan and Barbri are shoved down our throats and those programs are only helpful to such an extent. I mean, really, who actually benefits from those lectures? This is my *cringe* third time taking the bar. The first two times, I used Kaplan. Kaplan has great materials, and most importantly, probably the best MBE questions out there. But throwing a dumpster truck amount of information at a student, telling them to learn it, and then do practice essays and questions without real and quality driven feedback is just not how many people succeed. This time around, I worked exclusively with my bar prep professor from law school and together we figured out where I was missing points and why. By the time bar week rolled around, I was ready - or as ready as anyone could ever be rolling into the bar exam. It just takes figuring out what works for you - and not what bar companies tell you works - that leads to success.

Furthermore, passing the bar exam on the first shot has absolutely no merit on how you would be as an attorney (in my humble opinion). I know many many people who passed the bar on their first shot and I wouldn't trust them to pick up my sandwich from Jimmy Johns. Not that this point was argued against or anything.. just my two cents. :)

Finally, good vibes sent to everyone! This waiting game is by far the worst part of this whole process.. all fingers and toes crossed!


GamecockEsq - I could not agree more, naturally I dont anticipate that you have read my previous posts in other threads with my advice for studying and bar prep generally, but my overarching point and theme is "know thyself" dont just follow a prep course blindly. The materials that Kaplan, Themis, Barbri (and others) provide is tremendous but only the student knows what works best for them as far as digesting and retaining the material. There are a few things that I think apply to EVERYONE - you HAVE to actually do MBE questions - and you HAVE to do some essays to get an idea for timing, pacing and to know what good essay looks like. The ultimate "learning" however is very different student-by-student. You actually fall into my (now redefined) "group 1" you obviously took it seriously, but were lead astray by the big companies and not knowing how to best prepare. It sounds like you learned from the experience and substantively changed your study style and should therefore expect to see a change in score (its the "other side of the coin" for my Group 1 either not taking it seriously and not studying right, OR taking it seriously but not studying "right" for them.

My previous comment was an attempt to explain and argue why people fail the first time around and why re-takers, even in the face of conventional wisdom "advantages" tend to fail again. It was not meant to insult anyone who failed once, twice (or more) but would hopefully resonate with people that they cant keep prepping the same way and anticipating drastically different results.

As to your other point regarding those who pass on their first try and the quality of attorney they ultimately become....agreed. Plenty of people who have passed the bar (even on the first try) who have absolutely zero business actually practicing law - it is petrifying and I feel bad for their clients.

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby happyhour1122 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:09 am

GamecockEsq wrote:
happyhour1122 wrote:
ndbigdave wrote:
happyhour1122 wrote:
I took both exams seriously
I did very different this time

Hopefully I passed.


I did not mean to sound insulting at all, just a general observation and attempted explanation to the question posted.

Though your statement begs my question - you said you did "very different" this time, but then mention you hopefully passed. How do you know you did very different? Gut feeling? Perhaps you fell into my second group, someone who was already in the passing range but needed some luck or essays to fall their way this time? Obviously I dont know your first scores, the new scores and what (if anything) you did differently to prepare.


no no, I didn't take your statement insulting.
When I say I did different, I was talking about my preparation. I threw out barbri and went with Emanuel. Studied different materials, questions and approached differently is what I meant. I am not sure what my grading is going to be....
I was NOT in the close to passing range.



I would argue that the fact that someone is retaking the exam has little to do with intelligence or seriousness (although as a mentor, I have noticed a growing trend in rising 3Ls to not take the bar as seriously as they should - until they actually hit the exam day and panic) but has more to do with individualized learning. I can only really speak from my experience and from witnessing my peers, but as we all know Kaplan and Barbri are shoved down our throats and those programs are only helpful to such an extent. I mean, really, who actually benefits from those lectures? This is my *cringe* third time taking the bar. The first two times, I used Kaplan. Kaplan has great materials, and most importantly, probably the best MBE questions out there. But throwing a dumpster truck amount of information at a student, telling them to learn it, and then do practice essays and questions without real and quality driven feedback is just not how many people succeed. This time around, I worked exclusively with my bar prep professor from law school and together we figured out where I was missing points and why. By the time bar week rolled around, I was ready - or as ready as anyone could ever be rolling into the bar exam. It just takes figuring out what works for you - and not what bar companies tell you works - that leads to success.

Furthermore, passing the bar exam on the first shot has absolutely no merit on how you would be as an attorney (in my humble opinion). I know many many people who passed the bar on their first shot and I wouldn't trust them to pick up my sandwich from Jimmy Johns. Not that this point was argued against or anything.. just my two cents. :)

Finally, good vibes sent to everyone! This waiting game is by far the worst part of this whole process.. all fingers and toes crossed!


Not saying retakers lack intelligence or seriousness, but as a retaker, I do have to admit that I didn't know A LOT of things I should have known in my first exam. Sometimes, I was very thankful that I had the second opportunity to study for the bar because it gave me a thorough foundation of law. Some of my co workers still use barbri outlines to search the big picture of their cases.

If I had pass my bar first time around, I know I would have struggled more in my practice.

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby ndbigdave » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:16 am

happyhour1122 wrote:Not saying retakers lack intelligence or seriousness, but as a retaker, I do have to admit that I didn't know A LOT of things I should have known in my first exam. Sometimes, I was very thankful that I had the second opportunity to study for the bar because it gave me a thorough foundation of law. Some of my co workers still use barbri outlines to search the big picture of their cases.

If I had pass my bar first time around, I know I would have struggled more in my practice.


I agree. I was proud of my depth and range of knowledge during my time prepping for my first and then second bar. Many practicing attorneys told me that "you will never know the law better than you do now." It is definitely true as many of us who go on to practice or apply our JDs at companies will refine our knowledge to what is necessary, relevant and required for the job and all of this other "stuff" will fall by the wayside which is kindof depressing. 3+ years of school MONTHS of in-depth studying on 20+ subjects to pass ONE (1) test and then we generally stay away from 90+% of the material for the rest of our lives.

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby happyhour1122 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:36 am

ndbigdave wrote:
happyhour1122 wrote:Not saying retakers lack intelligence or seriousness, but as a retaker, I do have to admit that I didn't know A LOT of things I should have known in my first exam. Sometimes, I was very thankful that I had the second opportunity to study for the bar because it gave me a thorough foundation of law. Some of my co workers still use barbri outlines to search the big picture of their cases.

If I had pass my bar first time around, I know I would have struggled more in my practice.


I agree. I was proud of my depth and range of knowledge during my time prepping for my first and then second bar. Many practicing attorneys told me that "you will never know the law better than you do now." It is definitely true as many of us who go on to practice or apply our JDs at companies will refine our knowledge to what is necessary, relevant and required for the job and all of this other "stuff" will fall by the wayside which is kindof depressing. 3+ years of school MONTHS of in-depth studying on 20+ subjects to pass ONE (1) test and then we generally stay away from 90+% of the material for the rest of our lives.



Definitely agree.
But don't get me wrong- I'm not saying, more exam taker-> better knowledge of law. Therefore, I would rather pass this time. LOL!

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby blaze1306 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:06 am

IOWA has released its results...

http://www.iowacourts.gov/wfdata/frame8 ... File49.pdf
http://www.iowacourts.gov/For_Attorneys ... uncements/


53% (40) of those taking the exam took it for the first time
78% (31) of all those taking the exam for the first time passed

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby happyhour1122 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:08 am

blaze1306 wrote:IOWA has released its results...

http://www.iowacourts.gov/wfdata/frame8 ... File49.pdf
http://www.iowacourts.gov/For_Attorneys ... uncements/


53% (40) of those taking the exam took it for the first time
78% (31) of all those taking the exam for the first time passed



I like the way they phrased those that did not pass as "the unsuccessful applicants"

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby blaze1306 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:09 am

First UBE results of the year ( I am waiting for New Mexico). I guess these look ok for UBE...

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby happyhour1122 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:15 am

blaze1306 wrote:First UBE results of the year ( I am waiting for New Mexico). I guess these look ok for UBE...


don't seem to be way off.... thank God...

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby ndbigdave » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:18 am

I like the way Iowa breaks down the schools and the stats for 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th time takers. Really puts statistics into perspective.

Id like to see the MBE scores this year and how they compared to the last few years to get an idea if median scores went up/down/stagnant as I am curious about the new format and how curving will be done with scaled scores. Granted, this being February with fewer test takers is less than optimal, but will give me an idea so I can compare it to 2015 (when I took my first exam) and now.

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby Estecontre » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:49 am

ndbigdave wrote:
happyhour1122 wrote:no no, I didn't take your statement insulting.
When I say I did different, I was talking about my preparation. I threw out barbri and went with Emanuel. Studied different materials, questions and approached differently is what I meant. I am not sure what my grading is going to be....
I was NOT in the close to passing range.


I think you hit on a point with my (poorly defined) Group 1. I do believe that there are a lot of people who "studied" the first time and even did "take it seriously" simply were lead astray by bar prep companies. The second time around they did something substantively differently and received different results. I think thats the other side of the same coin in my mind - group 1 is either people who didn't really study enough or DID put in time but it wasn't ultimately productive time. You fall into the second portion of group 1 - you tried hard but the time sounds like it was not productively spent.

My GF falls into that group as well. She did BarBri and generally did the program, spending HOURS and HOURS watching/listening to lectures, filling in sheets and doing questions. As the test neared and she didnt feel like she was that prepared she started going back to how she studied in law school (going through outlines, creating her own handwritten notes to reinforce material + doing MBE questions) and felt like she got more out of her last couple weeks than her first two months. Unfortunately she did not pass the first time, but applied the lessons she learned to the second test and prepped totally differently the second time around going back to "her style." In many respects I think she spent FAR LESS time prepping, but the time spent was more productive. She still used BarBri materials, but avoided unnecessary lectures and saw her scores raise A LOT in the study-smart sections and in her own simulated tests (from 40s% and 50s% into the mid/upper 60s%). I think she also happened to have some bad luck on her essays that was corrected this second time around which also puts her a little into group 2, but ultimately I think she will pass this time around.


I think you hit a very good point. This past bar was my second attempt, but I realized after starting that the learning method of Themis wasn't exactly what I needed. The first time around I did about 87% of the program, but I look back and think did I really do all that work? No, I didn't. Sure I watched the lectures and did some practice questions, but that's not exactly my type of learning. I still haven't received my results and I won't for another month (yay Texas), but I definitely feel like I did better this time around than the first time. Some people have said it before and I love to repeat it. Some of these bar prep companies work exactly for people, but approaching studying for the bar people need to look at themselves and decide what type of way they usually study and what works for them. I'll tell you this time around my study habits were different. Instead of focusing on practice essays I focused more on learning the actual law, I was always told that my writing was well, but my grades would always drop because of my MC. The reason my MC grades were bad was because I hardly did any practice questions, so this time around that's what I needed to do. I focused all of my practicing on doing MBE questions and hardly did any essays. I wasn't worried about time, because I knew that was something I had no problem with. I finished both MBE sections with time to spare and when it came to the essays I allotted myself a time limit for each question and stuck to it. I can honestly say there was only one essay where I had little clue on what the answer was and by that time so I was so beat that I decided to just end it and call it a day. It's funny because the first time I felt more "prepared" because I did 87% of the program and blah blah blah, but when I came out I felt like I failed and did horrible and that's exactly what happened. This time around I felt less prepared and ready because I had only done like 60% of the program and a did a lot of practice questions on Adaptibar and just read the essay outlines and even doubted whether I should take it or not. By the end of the third day I came out feeling okay, not great enough to say that I passed, but okay enough to say I have a good chance of barely passing.

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby ndbigdave » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:11 pm

Estecontre wrote:I think you hit a very good point. This past bar was my second attempt, but I realized after starting that the learning method of Themis wasn't exactly what I needed. The first time around I did about 87% of the program, but I look back and think did I really do all that work? No, I didn't. Sure I watched the lectures and did some practice questions, but that's not exactly my type of learning. I still haven't received my results and I won't for another month (yay Texas), but I definitely feel like I did better this time around than the first time. Some people have said it before and I love to repeat it. Some of these bar prep companies work exactly for people, but approaching studying for the bar people need to look at themselves and decide what type of way they usually study and what works for them. I'll tell you this time around my study habits were different. Instead of focusing on practice essays I focused more on learning the actual law, I was always told that my writing was well, but my grades would always drop because of my MC. The reason my MC grades were bad was because I hardly did any practice questions, so this time around that's what I needed to do. I focused all of my practicing on doing MBE questions and hardly did any essays. I wasn't worried about time, because I knew that was something I had no problem with. I finished both MBE sections with time to spare and when it came to the essays I allotted myself a time limit for each question and stuck to it. I can honestly say there was only one essay where I had little clue on what the answer was and by that time so I was so beat that I decided to just end it and call it a day. It's funny because the first time I felt more "prepared" because I did 87% of the program and blah blah blah, but when I came out I felt like I failed and did horrible and that's exactly what happened. This time around I felt less prepared and ready because I had only done like 60% of the program and a did a lot of practice questions on Adaptibar and just read the essay outlines and even doubted whether I should take it or not. By the end of the third day I came out feeling okay, not great enough to say that I passed, but okay enough to say I have a good chance of barely passing.


Absolutely agree. I wrote some longer pieces about how I study (which I dont advise for anyone else as I was in a unique position and have a unique background) along with advice having helped my girlfriend and other friends go through studying while also reading best tips here and online.

The key is, as mentioned earlier - "know thyself" - by the time you are prepping for the bar you have gone through 4 years of undergrad and 3 years of law school - you should know what works for you. Do you need to listen to it, read it, watch it, write it down? Do you do well with flash cards? How long can you really sit in place and learn before it becomes a lesson in diminishing returns? I am a firm believer for nearly all students that 8 hour days are not conducive to actual learning and that less actual time can be used while being exponentially more productive.

From what you described, you seemed to have figured this out. You know how to write so why waste time writing out sample essays if you already understand format and timing, you just need to have an arsenal of info to use while you write. You struggle at MBE so the best thing to do is to do a ton of questions, get familiar with the format and read what you get wrong. Outside of learning the MBE subjects in your own way actually doing and reviewing MBE questions is the #1 way to prep.

I have no idea how close you were the first time around, but based on what you are saying here I would just like to know how you were scoring on questions in the week or so before the test, if you were into the 60%+ then I think you are WELL on your way to passing.

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby happyhour1122 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:54 pm

ndbigdave wrote:
Estecontre wrote:I think you hit a very good point. This past bar was my second attempt, but I realized after starting that the learning method of Themis wasn't exactly what I needed. The first time around I did about 87% of the program, but I look back and think did I really do all that work? No, I didn't. Sure I watched the lectures and did some practice questions, but that's not exactly my type of learning. I still haven't received my results and I won't for another month (yay Texas), but I definitely feel like I did better this time around than the first time. Some people have said it before and I love to repeat it. Some of these bar prep companies work exactly for people, but approaching studying for the bar people need to look at themselves and decide what type of way they usually study and what works for them. I'll tell you this time around my study habits were different. Instead of focusing on practice essays I focused more on learning the actual law, I was always told that my writing was well, but my grades would always drop because of my MC. The reason my MC grades were bad was because I hardly did any practice questions, so this time around that's what I needed to do. I focused all of my practicing on doing MBE questions and hardly did any essays. I wasn't worried about time, because I knew that was something I had no problem with. I finished both MBE sections with time to spare and when it came to the essays I allotted myself a time limit for each question and stuck to it. I can honestly say there was only one essay where I had little clue on what the answer was and by that time so I was so beat that I decided to just end it and call it a day. It's funny because the first time I felt more "prepared" because I did 87% of the program and blah blah blah, but when I came out I felt like I failed and did horrible and that's exactly what happened. This time around I felt less prepared and ready because I had only done like 60% of the program and a did a lot of practice questions on Adaptibar and just read the essay outlines and even doubted whether I should take it or not. By the end of the third day I came out feeling okay, not great enough to say that I passed, but okay enough to say I have a good chance of barely passing.


Absolutely agree. I wrote some longer pieces about how I study (which I dont advise for anyone else as I was in a unique position and have a unique background) along with advice having helped my girlfriend and other friends go through studying while also reading best tips here and online.

The key is, as mentioned earlier - "know thyself" - by the time you are prepping for the bar you have gone through 4 years of undergrad and 3 years of law school - you should know what works for you. Do you need to listen to it, read it, watch it, write it down? Do you do well with flash cards? How long can you really sit in place and learn before it becomes a lesson in diminishing returns? I am a firm believer for nearly all students that 8 hour days are not conducive to actual learning and that less actual time can be used while being exponentially more productive.

From what you described, you seemed to have figured this out. You know how to write so why waste time writing out sample essays if you already understand format and timing, you just need to have an arsenal of info to use while you write. You struggle at MBE so the best thing to do is to do a ton of questions, get familiar with the format and read what you get wrong. Outside of learning the MBE subjects in your own way actually doing and reviewing MBE questions is the #1 way to prep.

I have no idea how close you were the first time around, but based on what you are saying here I would just like to know how you were scoring on questions in the week or so before the test, if you were into the 60%+ then I think you are WELL on your way to passing.



I studied with 4 of my best friends. We all studied barbri, listened to the lectures together, and helped each other memorize rules and worked on the outlines. It worked for them. I'm sure it worked for many others as well- But not me. I didn't realize this throughout my law school either, (maybe thats why I was always a b~b+ student?) but despite my knowledge in law, I didn't know how to apply them. Hence, the only way for me to do well in any exam was to practice questions. I thought I did this during my first exam studies, it wasn't enough. Also, unlike my friends, I don't learn from watching lectures. I thought it worked for me since many of my group used it.

Either way-
i'm looking forward to seeing my results....Then, I'll know whether my new method worked or not. I just hope my one essay (Trust) which I literally had no idea...is not going to fail me.

thewait17

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby thewait17 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:25 pm

happyhour1122 wrote:
ndbigdave wrote:
Estecontre wrote:I think you hit a very good point. This past bar was my second attempt, but I realized after starting that the learning method of Themis wasn't exactly what I needed. The first time around I did about 87% of the program, but I look back and think did I really do all that work? No, I didn't. Sure I watched the lectures and did some practice questions, but that's not exactly my type of learning. I still haven't received my results and I won't for another month (yay Texas), but I definitely feel like I did better this time around than the first time. Some people have said it before and I love to repeat it. Some of these bar prep companies work exactly for people, but approaching studying for the bar people need to look at themselves and decide what type of way they usually study and what works for them. I'll tell you this time around my study habits were different. Instead of focusing on practice essays I focused more on learning the actual law, I was always told that my writing was well, but my grades would always drop because of my MC. The reason my MC grades were bad was because I hardly did any practice questions, so this time around that's what I needed to do. I focused all of my practicing on doing MBE questions and hardly did any essays. I wasn't worried about time, because I knew that was something I had no problem with. I finished both MBE sections with time to spare and when it came to the essays I allotted myself a time limit for each question and stuck to it. I can honestly say there was only one essay where I had little clue on what the answer was and by that time so I was so beat that I decided to just end it and call it a day. It's funny because the first time I felt more "prepared" because I did 87% of the program and blah blah blah, but when I came out I felt like I failed and did horrible and that's exactly what happened. This time around I felt less prepared and ready because I had only done like 60% of the program and a did a lot of practice questions on Adaptibar and just read the essay outlines and even doubted whether I should take it or not. By the end of the third day I came out feeling okay, not great enough to say that I passed, but okay enough to say I have a good chance of barely passing.


Absolutely agree. I wrote some longer pieces about how I study (which I dont advise for anyone else as I was in a unique position and have a unique background) along with advice having helped my girlfriend and other friends go through studying while also reading best tips here and online.

The key is, as mentioned earlier - "know thyself" - by the time you are prepping for the bar you have gone through 4 years of undergrad and 3 years of law school - you should know what works for you. Do you need to listen to it, read it, watch it, write it down? Do you do well with flash cards? How long can you really sit in place and learn before it becomes a lesson in diminishing returns? I am a firm believer for nearly all students that 8 hour days are not conducive to actual learning and that less actual time can be used while being exponentially more productive.

From what you described, you seemed to have figured this out. You know how to write so why waste time writing out sample essays if you already understand format and timing, you just need to have an arsenal of info to use while you write. You struggle at MBE so the best thing to do is to do a ton of questions, get familiar with the format and read what you get wrong. Outside of learning the MBE subjects in your own way actually doing and reviewing MBE questions is the #1 way to prep.

I have no idea how close you were the first time around, but based on what you are saying here I would just like to know how you were scoring on questions in the week or so before the test, if you were into the 60%+ then I think you are WELL on your way to passing.



I studied with 4 of my best friends. We all studied barbri, listened to the lectures together, and helped each other memorize rules and worked on the outlines. It worked for them. I'm sure it worked for many others as well- But not me. I didn't realize this throughout my law school either, (maybe thats why I was always a b~b+ student?) but despite my knowledge in law, I didn't know how to apply them. Hence, the only way for me to do well in any exam was to practice questions. I thought I did this during my first exam studies, it wasn't enough. Also, unlike my friends, I don't learn from watching lectures. I thought it worked for me since many of my group used it.

Either way-
i'm looking forward to seeing my results....Then, I'll know whether my new method worked or not. I just hope my one essay (Trust) which I literally had no idea...is not going to fail me.



Lol @ the Trusts essay. I had a feeling we were going to have a Trusts essay, so I prepared accordingly, and thought I knew it very well..... Nope. I don't even think I put down a coherent rule of law. :?

jdaustin32

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby jdaustin32 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:43 pm

Waiting for New Mexico exam results after taking Texas... just need to know...

Estecontre

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby Estecontre » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:45 pm

ndbigdave wrote:Absolutely agree. I wrote some longer pieces about how I study (which I dont advise for anyone else as I was in a unique position and have a unique background) along with advice having helped my girlfriend and other friends go through studying while also reading best tips here and online.

The key is, as mentioned earlier - "know thyself" - by the time you are prepping for the bar you have gone through 4 years of undergrad and 3 years of law school - you should know what works for you. Do you need to listen to it, read it, watch it, write it down? Do you do well with flash cards? How long can you really sit in place and learn before it becomes a lesson in diminishing returns? I am a firm believer for nearly all students that 8 hour days are not conducive to actual learning and that less actual time can be used while being exponentially more productive.

From what you described, you seemed to have figured this out. You know how to write so why waste time writing out sample essays if you already understand format and timing, you just need to have an arsenal of info to use while you write. You struggle at MBE so the best thing to do is to do a ton of questions, get familiar with the format and read what you get wrong. Outside of learning the MBE subjects in your own way actually doing and reviewing MBE questions is the #1 way to prep.

I have no idea how close you were the first time around, but based on what you are saying here I would just like to know how you were scoring on questions in the week or so before the test, if you were into the 60%+ then I think you are WELL on your way to passing.


I read that "know thyself" comment and it really struck a chord with me. That was exactly my mantra, why do I need to waste time writing out sample essays if I don't actually know the law? Now, this is not a knock to the people who spend time writing sample essays or practicing essays, but I know I have no problem writing (IRAC is such a simple format to me and reading sample answers from Themis actually caused me to write in an incorrect format that my essays were off even though I knew the answer the first time around). At some point during my bar study I actually shifted my focus from the lessons and filling in blanks to just plainly learning my outlines, while I honestly don't recommend this style of learning for everybody I will say that it immensely paid off for me. Like I said before, there was honestly only one essay I struggled with and by that point I was too tired to even try. While I may "excel" at the writing portion I know I clearly lacked in the MBE section (especially in the Civ Pro section) and even though I know it wasn't because I had trouble learning the material, but it was more because of my strategy when it came to MC. I can't recall how many times I would narrow it down to two answer choices and pick the wrong one, but it would happen so often!! That was so frustrating, but at least I was close to being right so it was about tweaking it to pick the right answer the first time.

To answer your question, I can't say for sure how I was scoring on questions int the weeks before the test. Some days would be great with like 80% and some days (not often) it would be as low as 50%. I typically did around 50 a day the last month and sometimes up to 100 a day. All-in-all Adaptibar had me at 64%~65% overall correct I can't really recall, but it was definitely in the 60% range(the Civ Pro really brought me down and at times I would do purely Civ Pro questions to try to help my score). I did over 1000 questions with Adaptibar after starting with Themis' questions and did probably around 400-500 with them. I had to stop using them when I realized they didn't change some questions and I was getting answers right because I recognized the answer and not necessarily the rule...literally there were a couple that I remembered word for word so I knew the answer almost immediately.

I want to add one more thing about my "unusual" method for studying. I keep reading people talking about reading the model answers and trying to emulate them, I'm going to say that I think people should avoid doing this. While it may be great to try to get to that point you don't know the background of the writer. Sure they could've written that one great essay, but the rest of their essays could've been crap because they spent so much time writing that one great essay or they could've lost time because they spent an extra 15 minutes writing that essay. While it's great to try to be number 1, there's no difference between that number 1 essay and the person who wrote enough to pass...at the end of the day they're both able to practice law. I believe your essays should be straight to the point so you don't want time in case you need it "The issue is . . . " "The rule is .. . "/rant. Also the one thing I attribute my unusual method to was greatly helping me with Texas' short-answer. Many people spend time reading past answers "because they tend to repeat." This past bar was completely different according to most people, I honestly wouldn't be able to tell you because I didn't look at past exams. While I may not have done the greatest, I didn't feel as lost as other people since I focused on learning the law. I mean I would talk to people and they seemed lost for words because "they've never seen some of the questions asked before" and there was a "new person writing them that's why they're different." I'm so glad I decided to study my way, because you never know what you will be asked and you shouldn't be banking on certain questions to be asked.

Lastly, for those who have not read that "know thyself" comment that was posted in one of these forums, go read it (maybe someone can link it). Some of these bar prep companies do put fear into you to studying and while that may work for some, it's not for everybody. I took off more days this second time around than my first time and I KNOW I did better this second time, maybe not enough to pass but I know I scored higher. Weekdays were spent studying typically 6-8 hours, some days maybe more. I wouldn't wake up the earliest either, but I didn't sleep in, I did what worked best for me. Weekends were more relaxed and some Sundays I didn't even study. Study the way that works best for you.

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ndbigdave

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby ndbigdave » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:45 pm

thewait17 wrote:Lol @ the Trusts essay. I had a feeling we were going to have a Trusts essay, so I prepared accordingly, and thought I knew it very well..... Nope. I don't even think I put down a coherent rule of law. :?


I hope to articulate myself here without sounding arrogant or something, but from my experience and what can work for a "passing score" on most essays I put all my chips into the MBE. I did nothing for the essays until the two days before the exam where I reviewed some brief outlines to get terms and concepts fresh in my head. I by no means thing I "crushed" the Trusts essay but I felt like I had something to say. I killed the agency one mainly because I read my brief agency outline the night before and it was fresh. All the MEE and MPT really did was confirm my suspicions. I could generally cram for the non-MBE "essay testable" subjects because I otherwise know how to write while devoting time to the subjects I KNEW would be there (those for the MBE) knowing that at least a few MBE subjects would cross over in essays as well. Though part of me would love to score in the 90th percentile the end game is to pass (and furthermore IL doesnt even give you your scores if you pass which I think is straight up garbage) however the goal is to achieve the 266 scaled points in IL so I prepped to achieve that.

Similar topic but different story, my law school produces a book called "The Book of 9's and 10's" that are a collection of essays from past years that scored (you guessed it) either a 9 or a 10 for the Michigan essays. (FYI: Michigan does 15 total essays scored on a 0-10 point scale). After reading these student-written answers that scored a perfect or near perfect score I felt way more confident as I thought many of them bordered on terrible, some were shockingly short (in Michigan you get 20 min per essay) so I thought to myself, "if I only need to average around a 7 to get a passing score, I am not losing sleep on this" - so I didnt. I know IL grades slighly differently, but when an average score is barely over a 3 I think you might be shocked at what kind of garbage can pass for a 3 (or just below) which is still passing.

thewait17

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Re: 2017 Results Thread - February Exam

Postby thewait17 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:59 pm

ndbigdave wrote:
I hope to articulate myself here without sounding arrogant or something, but from my experience and what can work for a "passing score" on most essays I put all my chips into the MBE. I did nothing for the essays until the two days before the exam where I reviewed some brief outlines to get terms and concepts fresh in my head. I by no means thing I "crushed" the Trusts essay but I felt like I had something to say. I killed the agency one mainly because I read my brief agency outline the night before and it was fresh. All the MEE and MPT really did was confirm my suspicions. I could generally cram for the non-MBE "essay testable" subjects because I otherwise know how to write while devoting time to the subjects I KNEW would be there (those for the MBE) knowing that at least a few MBE subjects would cross over in essays as well. Though part of me would love to score in the 90th percentile the end game is to pass (and furthermore IL doesnt even give you your scores if you pass which I think is straight up garbage) however the goal is to achieve the 266 scaled points in IL so I prepped to achieve that.

Similar topic but different story, my law school produces a book called "The Book of 9's and 10's" that are a collection of essays from past years that scored (you guessed it) either a 9 or a 10 for the Michigan essays. (FYI: Michigan does 15 total essays scored on a 0-10 point scale). After reading these student-written answers that scored a perfect or near perfect score I felt way more confident as I thought many of them bordered on terrible, some were shockingly short (in Michigan you get 20 min per essay) so I thought to myself, "if I only need to average around a 7 to get a passing score, I am not losing sleep on this" - so I didnt. I know IL grades slighly differently, but when an average score is barely over a 3 I think you might be shocked at what kind of garbage can pass for a 3 (or just below) which is still passing.


Yeah, have to agree. I was so worried about the MBE that I spent nearly no time on the essays for 3/4 of my bar prep. So, I freaked out about 1-2 weeks out from the exam and started cramming for essays. I completely regret doing this and really wish I would have just kept going with the MBE practice. I was scoring 60-65% on practice MBEs, but did a bit lower on the simulated (114/200). I'm just hoping I actually did enough to boost me to that 266.



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