Advice for a third time failure

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LittleJohnBull

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Re: Advice for a third time failure

Postby LittleJohnBull » Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:01 am

Hey lawst_,

My heart goes out to you. I understand your feelings right now, especially the numbness.

1st: Take some time to be angry or disappointed. Please don't do anything to harm yourself or others, but do take some time to grieve. It's ok to feel a bit of a chip on your shoulder for the fact that intelligence and acuity don't translate into a standardized test. Anyone who takes this as an invitation to comment on your intelligence or ability to be a lawyer can eff off.

2nd: I don't think it's a matter of if you will pass, but when. I think you should tell yourself "it's ok to take a break." These tests are fraught with stress, and each time there is a failure it can be quite traumatizing to the test taker. You may need to spend some time away from it to heal and let your body/mind take a respite from the stress. Maybe you and your friends all get the feeling that you should take it a 4th time, but no one knows YOU better than YOU. YOU alone should decide when to take it. Personally, I have many family and friends that would insist on the same thing. (I'm awaiting results right now). But I need time to heal physically/mentally. I have budgeted $ to do some traveling with my spouse regardless of the results. I will continue working to bring in $ regardless of the results. The bar exam will be there when I am in a better place to take it.

3rd: Consider the following tips WRT the MBE. I am NOT one of those people who finishes the MBE very quickly. I realized over the years I have very bad test anxiety and I also tend to negotiate with the answer choices. The more stressed out I am, the more indecisive I become. I've had to learn to use my intuition to answer the questions. I disagree that you should read the facts --> call of the question --> answer choices. I think you should go call of the question --> facts --> answer choices. By doing this you will know exactly what to look for/pay attention to in the facts. (For example, if the call of the question asks about a negligence claim, pay attention to the facts related to that cause of action). My mentor had me try to finish the MBE (1/2 session) in 2.5 hours max. That way I had to push myself to answer questions quickly and without negotiation/rumination. I had to work on meticulous but fast reading. I set an alarm to go off in 2.5 hours. On exam day, I finished about 2hrs and 45 min. I think in the afternoon I may have been closer to the 3 hr mark and answered 1 or 2 randomly. Want to know how I did the administration before this? I had to answer 10-20 randomly because I didn't finish. Not saying this is any better than anyone else's suggestion, but maybe try it from the perspective of someone with a similar test-taking experience rather than someone who has fundamentally different skill sets.

Be good to yourself and take care.

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Re: Advice for a third time failure

Postby barman143 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:52 pm

Repeater here. I quit my full-time non-law job in finance to study. Stick with 1-2 resources for learning material, that's it. I used Themis, when I failed, and when I finally passed.

Don't quit, but yes consider a UBE state as well. Also consider transferring your MBE score to a UBE which accepts it and take two bar exams if possible. And also note if your MBE was high enough for DC? My understanding is that the IL exam format is very similar to the UBE already. Maybe take a UBE state (Missouri), and then transfer the MBE portion to take IL later?

The reason I failed the bar was only because I didn't study enough and I didn't study right. I could have done it while working if I tried harder and better.

Also the mental aspect, being drained and that lack of confidence. Man that feeling of worthlessness, I will never forget it. But it is also very humbling. Do something to build your confidence - join a gym or pick a fight on a street (just kidding). Volunteer work, church, mosque, the indigent, etc. It has to be authentic happiness and confidence, not artificial. Good luck!

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trebekismyhero

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Re: Advice for a third time failure

Postby trebekismyhero » Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:18 pm

barman143 wrote:Repeater here. I quit my full-time non-law job in finance to study. Stick with 1-2 resources for learning material, that's it. I used Themis, when I failed, and when I finally passed.

Don't quit, but yes consider a UBE state as well. Also consider transferring your MBE score to a UBE which accepts it and take two bar exams if possible. And also note if your MBE was high enough for DC? My understanding is that the IL exam format is very similar to the UBE already. Maybe take a UBE state (Missouri), and then transfer the MBE portion to take IL later?

The reason I failed the bar was only because I didn't study enough and I didn't study right. I could have done it while working if I tried harder and better.

Also the mental aspect, being drained and that lack of confidence. Man that feeling of worthlessness, I will never forget it. But it is also very humbling. Do something to build your confidence - join a gym or pick a fight on a street (just kidding). Volunteer work, church, mosque, the indigent, etc. It has to be authentic happiness and confidence, not artificial. Good luck!


This is good advice if you decide to retake in February. Missouri has a lower score requirement to pass (I think 260) and by next July, IL will almost certainly be on the UBE so you should just be able to transfer your score.

waxecstatic

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Re: Advice for a third time failure

Postby waxecstatic » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:37 pm

I'd like to share my experience to provide anyone who may be reading this and has to deal with repeating the bar some inspiration or some advice however little it may end up being. After graduating from a second tier law school nowhere near the top in a city rich with elite law schools I felt somewhat low and didn't have the enthusiasm or effort required to pass the bar. I felt depressed and anxious. A good friend of mine had a prescription for Adderall and was liberal in handing it out to me. I was instantly hooked and would spend all day studying. But I wasn't really studying correctly. First off, it made me completely manic. I would scribble random shit on the outlines about Supreme Court cases (when has anyone ever cited a supreme court case even in law school let alone the bar) or would just make flash cards on basic definitions. I would spend all this time going nowhere. It was easily the most useless and wasted two months of my life. My life was a disaster. I'll never forget how unprepared I was going into the July 2014 bar exam. After the first day, we had the essays. I was so unprepared I considered not showing up. I thought to myself what is the point; I know hardly anything and I'm going to fail. I showed up only for the experience of taking the bar; I didn't even take my laptop. It was pure torture sitting there while everyone else typed away nonstop for 6 hours. I told myself there's no way I would allow anything like to happen again. Next time I was going to be prepared, on my game, and pass.

For the February 2015 bar, I took a themis course my friend suggested, DID NOT take Adderall and felt calmer and more stable--definitely less depressed. I watched the videos, I took good notes, I studied. I thought I did everything I was supposed to do and when I came out of the test in February and honestly thought I had passed. I knew either way, it would be a close call. I tried to push the exam out of my head for the next couple months and worked some bullshit jobs I don't even remember. Anyway, I got the letter and discovered I had failed again--by about 12 points. My essays were actually were above average, one was even perfect, but my MBE scores weren't much higher than they were in July when I was totally unprepared. I had no idea how this could happen. The truth is you have to do as many MBE as you can and drill it home, why each answer is right, why the tricky ones are wrong until you notice patterns.

After I failed the second time I had pretty much given up hope. My friends, even my own family members told me to not bother taking it again. I decided to take it one more time. I had a backup plan--if I failed I was going to become a school teacher. If you have a doctorate which is essentially what a JD is, a teacher can make decent money after a while. I went back to my law school's library with people who had graduated an entire year after me. I really didn't care tho--I was on a mission. This time, I didn't bother with those lectures (I thought they were a waste of time anyway) and I got Adaptibar. I used Adaptibar and the BarBri books to study--that's it. I recommend the BarBri Conviser and their essay answers. For the MBE use Adaptibar and the BarBri Conviser. If you do this, I honestly believe you will pass. I got my letter this same time a year ago and passed by 13 points. Good luck to you!

P.S. to all upcoming attorneys: Good luck finding a job, for me it's been harder than the bar ;)

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Yvonnella

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Re: Advice for a third time failure

Postby Yvonnella » Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:16 pm

MavEryck wrote:Pick the best Answer Choice from the answers provided below.

Daniel placed an ad in Wednesday's paper to sell some of the Baseball Cards that his Sports Memorabilia Store sells on a regular basis because the store has a surplus of 1988 Rookie Baseball Cards and has not had many buyers during the month of February. The regular price of a Baseball Card is $22.00 plus 10% sales tax. The ad stated "All Baseball Cards 50% off to the first 25 customers who purchase Baseball Cards by March 1st!" In the fine print, the ad stated "Must buy a minimum of two Baseball Cards." Daniel waited until 3:00pm on Sunday, March 1st and then closed the Sports Memorabilia Store two hours early. The store has never closed early in the past 30 years since Daniel's grandfather first opened the store for business. Abel arrived on Monday, March 2nd, when the store opened at 8:00 a.m. and stated that he had mailed a letter last Thursday with a check and a note stating "I accept your offer to purchase Baseball Cards. Enclosed please find my check for $25.00. Please hold as many Baseball Cards as $25.00 will purchase. I will arrive Monday March 2nd, to pick up the cards. Signed, Abel - Dated and mailed Thursday, February 26th." Daniel refused to honor Abel's request for Baseball Cards. Abel got upset and decided to go across the street and call his friend Brenda, who is a lawyer. Abel remembered that Brenda had a question just like this one on her Bar Exam and bragged about how fast she had answered the question because she already knew the answer before she even looked at the answers. But, the only thing Abel could remember was Brenda telling him something about the Law of Sales. Just as Abel was walking away, the U.S. Postal Worker arrived with the letter Abel had mailed, including the check for $25.00. It was not a Leap Year. Postal workers were on strike Saturday, February 28th and no mail was delivered.

Call of the question: Was there a valid contract?

A. Yes, because Abel accepted Daniel's offer with acceptance and bargained for consideration.
B. No, because according to Restatement 2nd of Contracts, written offers in newspapers do not apply to items as small as Baseball Cards.
C. No, because the acceptance letter was mailed on Thursday but arrived on Monday, March 2nd, after the offer ended on March 1st.
D. Yes, Baseball Cards are goods and their sale is governed by Article 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code ("UCC") and UCC 2-207 applies to the Rule Against Perpetuities.


Ok, did you formulate an answer in your head?

What did you decide?

Answer Choice D is incorrect because the RAP has nothing to do with contracts and is therefore inapplicable.
Answer Choice C is incorrect because the Mailbox Rule makes acceptance valid from the time acceptance was mailed. (If you chose Answer Choice C then you need to study until you know the rules better.)
Answer Choice B is incorrect because there is no such rule in the R2D of K.
Answer Choice A is incorrect because (just kidding) - You should have already determined that Answer Choice A was correct before even looking at the answers. Thus, you would not have spent any time even looking at the other answer choices. You would have selected Answer Choice A and moved on to the next question, without giving this question a second thought.

Why? Because a valid contract is comprised of offer, acceptance, and consideration. Assuming the ad was specific enough to be an offer, the mailbox rule will suffice for valid acceptance because the mailing date was prior to March 1, and the $25.00 check is bargained for consideration. Therefore, Answer Choice A is the BEST answer choice.

Original Poster... Do you see how much time you saved if you went straight to the correct answer (Answer Choice A) after already having that answer in your head and not spending even one second looking at the other answer choices?


One of the dangers of going too fast and not considering all of the answer choices raises its head here. If one answer choice is more correct than the others, it is in fact the one you dismissed under the mailbox rule, Answer C. Everyone who studies for the bar knows that acceptance is effective from the time of mailing under the MBR. However, that rule only applies where the offer invites acceptance by mail, or where it is reasonable to accept the offer by mail.

Here, the offer invites acceptance by performance, first come, first served. The offer invites a race to get the bargain, the implied condition of acceptance being clearly that you need to come to the store and exchange money for baseball cards in person before 24 other people get there to do the same thing. The clue to this is that the offer was limited to the first 25 people who buy baseball cards. Acceptance by mail is not invited, expressly or implicitly, nor is it reasonable under the circumstances. What if 50 people showed up to buy cards on Thursday? What if 300 people mailed their acceptances on Thursday, all of which arrived on Monday? It is unreasonable to expect that your acceptance by mail on Thursday should save you a spot at the head of the line in the race to be one of the first 25 to buy cards. Under these facts, acceptance by mail operates as a counteroffer, and the original offeror would be under no obligation to accept. The mailed acceptance would only be enforceable if it were received by the offeror by Sunday the 1st, and fewer than 25 people had purchased cards since the offer was published. As such, because the acceptance was mailed, not accepted by performance, and did not arrive until Monday, March 2nd, after the offer had ended on March 1st, there is not a valid contract. Therefore, Answer Choice C is the best answer.

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Re: Advice for a third time failure

Postby whitecollar23 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:34 am

I'll try to post a longer answer tomorrow, but in short, the key for the MBE and really, all exams, is to understand the material cold. I don't mean memorizing it; I mean actually understanding all the material. I constantly see people talk about how they do terribly on property or evidence or another subject. That shouldn't happen. Sure, such subjects are difficult, but if you take the time to really learn the materials well before doing practice MBE questions on such topics, you'll be able to overcome such subjects, too.

Again, will try to post more information tomorrow. Have a good night.

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rcharter1978

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Re: Advice for a third time failure

Postby rcharter1978 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:35 am

You're getting a ton of great advice.

I think when you're a repeater there is a temptation to just throw a lot of money at the problem and get every resource available so you don't miss anything. I think it's much better to pick a few resources and focus on what works and really go at it.

Barbris program did not work for me, I think the essay component of their program sucks. But I think they are best for BLL. So I used Barbri for BLL, a tutor/repeaters program for essays/practice exams, and adaptibar for MBE. Also the PT book with the red cover.

But I had PURCHASED bar essays, lean sheets, critical pass and anything else I could get my hands on. Just because I figured if I wanted to pass I better but everything and use everything.

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Re: Advice for a third time failure

Postby melmarcar » Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:46 am

whitecollar23 wrote:I'll try to post a longer answer tomorrow, but in short, the key for the MBE and really, all exams, is to understand the material cold. I don't mean memorizing it; I mean actually understanding all the material. I constantly see people talk about how they do terribly on property or evidence or another subject. That shouldn't happen. Sure, such subjects are difficult, but if you take the time to really learn the materials well before doing practice MBE questions on such topics, you'll be able to overcome such subjects, too.

Again, will try to post more information tomorrow. Have a good night.


Congrats on passing the bar with scores of epic proportions and all, but this is beyond pontificating, and it's also totally unhelpful. "Know the law cold"? "Take time to know the material"? Really? Did you think this was some sort of illuminating test-taking strategy OP was formerly unaware of? It's great that you have a little buzz from passing, but don't pretend you're responding to this post to offer your sagacious words of wisdom selflessly. You're here to humble-brag, and you're being a bit of a condescending douche about it for someone who has all of two hours of perspective on the matter under your belt.

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Re: Advice for a third time failure

Postby whitecollar23 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:35 am

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melmarcar

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Re: Advice for a third time failure

Postby melmarcar » Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:42 am

whitecollar23 wrote:
melmarcar wrote:
whitecollar23 wrote:I'll try to post a longer answer tomorrow, but in short, the key for the MBE and really, all exams, is to understand the material cold. I don't mean memorizing it; I mean actually understanding all the material. I constantly see people talk about how they do terribly on property or evidence or another subject. That shouldn't happen. Sure, such subjects are difficult, but if you take the time to really learn the materials well before doing practice MBE questions on such topics, you'll be able to overcome such subjects, too.

Again, will try to post more information tomorrow. Have a good night.


Congrats on passing the bar with scores of epic proportions and all, but this is beyond pontificating, and it's also totally unhelpful. "Know the law cold"? "Take time to know the material"? Really? Did you think this was some sort of illuminating test-taking strategy OP was formerly unaware of? It's great that you have a little buzz from passing, but don't pretend you're responding to this post to offer your sagacious words of wisdom selflessly. You're here to humble-brag, and you're being a bit of a condescending douche about it for someone who has all of two hours of perspective on the matter under your belt.


You'd be surprised how few people ever learn the law cold for any exam, even in law school. And given how many people write about how they find property difficult so they just skip it and focus on the other subjects, it's clear that many people take the bar without knowing the law cold or even well.

I said I would give a more lengthy answer today and I plan on it. I'm sorry things didn't work out for you, but I'm not trying to humble-brag here. But I do understand how it might seem that way, and I apologize if it came off that way.

And in regard to perspective, I didn't first think about the exam now. I've been reflecting on my experience for months now.


Classic assumption it didn't work out for me. Good luck kiddo.

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Re: Advice for a third time failure

Postby whitecollar23 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:48 am

melmarcar wrote:
whitecollar23 wrote:
melmarcar wrote:
whitecollar23 wrote:I'll try to post a longer answer tomorrow, but in short, the key for the MBE and really, all exams, is to understand the material cold. I don't mean memorizing it; I mean actually understanding all the material. I constantly see people talk about how they do terribly on property or evidence or another subject. That shouldn't happen. Sure, such subjects are difficult, but if you take the time to really learn the materials well before doing practice MBE questions on such topics, you'll be able to overcome such subjects, too.

Again, will try to post more information tomorrow. Have a good night.


Congrats on passing the bar with scores of epic proportions and all, but this is beyond pontificating, and it's also totally unhelpful. "Know the law cold"? "Take time to know the material"? Really? Did you think this was some sort of illuminating test-taking strategy OP was formerly unaware of? It's great that you have a little buzz from passing, but don't pretend you're responding to this post to offer your sagacious words of wisdom selflessly. You're here to humble-brag, and you're being a bit of a condescending douche about it for someone who has all of two hours of perspective on the matter under your belt.


You'd be surprised how few people ever learn the law cold for any exam, even in law school. And given how many people write about how they find property difficult so they just skip it and focus on the other subjects, it's clear that many people take the bar without knowing the law cold or even well.

I said I would give a more lengthy answer today and I plan on it. I'm sorry things didn't work out for you, but I'm not trying to humble-brag here. But I do understand how it might seem that way, and I apologize if it came off that way.

And in regard to perspective, I didn't first think about the exam now. I've been reflecting on my experience for months now.


Classic assumption it didn't work out for me. Good luck kiddo.


I'm glad things did work out for you, then. Congrats!

whitecollar23

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Re: Advice for a third time failure

Postby whitecollar23 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:22 pm

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rcharter1978

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Re: Advice for a third time failure

Postby rcharter1978 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:31 am

If you've failed the bar exam, there is a good chance the program you were using didn't work for you. You're likely better off to taking advice from someone who was in the same position and was able to figure out an alternative program/method that worked for them. Someone who passed the first time found success with the Barbri method or another big test taking company. If you didn't, you probably weren't able to glean as much from the standard Barbri program...and there is a good chance you'll do better using an alternative method of studying.

Take advice that makes sense -- period. What has worked for someone else, may not work for you.



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