Interpreting UBE Scores Forum

[S. Goodman]

So I received my UBE scores today and I'm just trying to make sense of exactly how I did on each part. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I understand the MBE score quite well, I'm a little more confused on how essays are scored and the MPT. Specifically how many points are available, and how they are scaled. My jurisdiction I believe counts the MBE as 50%, essays at 30%, and the MPT at 20%. My UBE scaled scores are as follows:

MBE:164.8
MEE: 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, and 5
MPT: 2, and 3

Overall UBE score: 303

[kay2016]

Each essay and MPT is likely graded out of 6.

Then it is scaled, allegedly, comparably to the MBE and put out of 200 points. So 139 or something on the written portion + 164 on the MBE = overall of 303

UBE states vary on requirements for transfer. Alaska is the highest requirement with 280. So you could potentially waive into each UBE state if you wanted... but beyond that, your score is meaningless.

Congrats on passing

[kellyfrost]

So I received my UBE scores today and I'm just trying to make sense of exactly how I did on each part. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I understand the MBE score quite well, I'm a little more confused on how essays are scored and the MPT. Specifically how many points are available, and how they are scaled. My jurisdiction I believe counts the MBE as 50%, essays at 30%, and the MPT at 20%. My UBE scaled scores are as follows:

MBE:164.8
MEE: 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, and 5
MPT: 2, and 3

Overall UBE score: 303

303 is a very good score. As another poster pointed out, your score would allow you to transfer into any UBE jurisdiction.
I am a little confused why you did so poorly on the MPT but very well on the MBE and essays. Did you struggle on the PT's on test day? Is that area a weakness for you? This is a rather important area of the bar to correct any deficiencies in. If you had a barely passing MBE I would say it didn't matter because you'll never "use" MBE skills in practice but the same doesn't ring true of the MPT.
Congrats on passing!

[S. Goodman]

Thanks for the replies and insight!!

So I did absolutely no practice or studying for the MPT or the MEE whatsoever. I skipped over all of that with Barbri. I just planned to write the essays like I always had in law school. And I wasn't exactly sure how to effectively prepare for the MPT where it would have a drastic impact on the likelyhood of passing. I spent all of my time preparing and practicing for the MBE because it was worth so much for my state, 50%.

However, I'm not sure why my MPT scores were so low. If my scores were out of 6 then yeah, I scored very low for sure. I didn't feel like I didn't know what to do on test day in regard to the MPT. I felt decent afterward and during.

[kellyfrost]

Thanks for the replies and insight!!

So I did absolutely no practice or studying for the MPT or the MEE whatsoever. I skipped over all of that with Barbri. I just planned to write the essays like I always had in law school. And I wasn't exactly sure how to effectively prepare for the MPT where it would have a drastic impact on the likelyhood of passing. I spent all of my time preparing and practicing for the MBE because it was worth so much for my state, 50%.

However, I'm not sure why my MPT scores were so low. If my scores were out of 6 then yeah, I scored very low for sure. I didn't feel like I didn't know what to do on test day in regard to the MPT. I felt decent afterward and during.

I guess there is no reason to dwell on it at this point, you have a high enough score to pass in any jurisdiction. If you didn't prepare at all for the MPT, then that might explain why you were scored slightly below average. Knowing that, I wouldn't be too concerned.

[S. Goodman]

Thanks for the replies and insight!!

So I did absolutely no practice or studying for the MPT or the MEE whatsoever. I skipped over all of that with Barbri. I just planned to write the essays like I always had in law school. And I wasn't exactly sure how to effectively prepare for the MPT where it would have a drastic impact on the likelyhood of passing. I spent all of my time preparing and practicing for the MBE because it was worth so much for my state, 50%.

However, I'm not sure why my MPT scores were so low. If my scores were out of 6 then yeah, I scored very low for sure. I didn't feel like I didn't know what to do on test day in regard to the MPT. I felt decent afterward and during.

I guess there is no reason to dwell on it at this point, you have a high enough score to pass in any jurisdiction. If you didn't prepare at all for the MPT, then that might explain why you were scored slightly below average. Knowing that, I wouldn't be too concerned.

Thanks for the reply!

[SilvermanBarPrep]

That is a very high MBE score. Well done!

[udonisandtrinity]

Goodman's MPT score is much lower than his or her MEE score because the States grade them in arbitrary fashion. After seeing he had received a 164 on the MBE which is very impressive, they probably read 1-2 MEE essays and then glossed over the MPT.

You cannot explain the grading on the written portion. It is beyond bizarre. My ex-girlfriend, a Yale Law Grad failed the first time taking the NY Bar Exam with a 128 MBE graded score and received average scores on her essays and MPT despite her believing that she did very well. Second time around, she scored a 153 MBE graded score, blanked on several essay questions and did not complete her MPT. Of course, NY did not disclose her grades for the written portion, but she passed. Just get 140+ on the MBE and you have a strong chance of passing despite what or how you write on the essays.

[trebekismyhero]

Goodman's MPT score is much lower than his or her MEE score because the States grade them in arbitrary fashion. After seeing he had received a 164 on the MBE which is very impressive, they probably read 1-2 MEE essays and then glossed over the MPT.

You cannot explain the grading on the written portion. It is beyond bizarre. My ex-girlfriend, a Yale Law Grad failed the first time taking the NY Bar Exam with a 128 MBE graded score and received average scores on her essays and MPT despite her believing that she did very well. Second time around, she scored a 153 MBE graded score, blanked on several essay questions and did not complete her MPT. Of course, NY did not disclose her grades for the written portion, but she passed. Just get 140+ on the MBE and you have a strong chance of passing despite what or how you write on the essays.

Is it true that graders know your MBE scores? I thought it was blind grading.

[A. Nony Mouse]

It's not weird grading, it's just math. When the MBE = 50% of your score, if you do well enough on the MBE, you don't need good scores on the essays.

The low score on the MPT is probably because there tends to be a lot of emphasis on format and organization, and if you didn't study that part at all you could get downgraded pretty easily for not providing the answer the way they wanted to see it, even if the content isn't bad. It doesn't mean a score was assigned randomly.

[S. Goodman]

It's not weird grading, it's just math. When the MBE = 50% of your score, if you do well enough on the MBE, you don't need good scores on the essays.

The low score on the MPT is probably because there tends to be a lot of emphasis on format and organization, and if you didn't study that part at all you could get downgraded pretty easily for not providing the answer the way they wanted to see it, even if the content isn't bad. It doesn't mean a score was assigned randomly.

Thanks for all of the replies!

I'm not sure why my MPT grade was low. I felt the content and organization was adequate, but it is entirely possible that I unknowingly messed up badly on both. Nevertheless, my goal was to prepare as much as possible for the MBE, and thankfully that strategy ended up working out. Thanks again!

[udonisandtrinity]

It's not weird grading, it's just math. When the MBE = 50% of your score, if you do well enough on the MBE, you don't need good scores on the essays.

The low score on the MPT is probably because there tends to be a lot of emphasis on format and organization, and if you didn't study that part at all you could get downgraded pretty easily for not providing the answer the way they wanted to see it, even if the content isn't bad. It doesn't mean a score was assigned randomly.

It is math but I am highlighting his MPT vs MEE score. the OP thinks his organization and format was adequate and I believe him based on his MEE scores. The graders probably did not read his MPT.

[A. Nony Mouse]

So if they didn't read it how did they randomly decide to give it a 2 rather than a 3 or a 4 or whatever?

I'm sure the graders try to get through everything really quickly but you've still never given any evidence to support the idea that graders are just skipping whole parts of the exam and assigning completely arbitrary grades. Different graders trying to get through piles of exams as quickly as possible could certainly lead to some inconsistency, but not flat out not reading stuff. No one is going to tell individual graders what MBE score a given exam got; they just get handed stacks of essays.

[SLS_AMG]

It's not weird grading, it's just math. When the MBE = 50% of your score, if you do well enough on the MBE, you don't need good scores on the essays.

The low score on the MPT is probably because there tends to be a lot of emphasis on format and organization, and if you didn't study that part at all you could get downgraded pretty easily for not providing the answer the way they wanted to see it, even if the content isn't bad. It doesn't mean a score was assigned randomly.

It is math but I am highlighting his MPT vs MEE score. the OP thinks his organization and format was adequate and I believe him based on his MEE scores. The graders probably did not read his MPT.

OP is more than two months out from the test and wrote the MPT under timed conditions. Perhaps more to the point, OP has admitted that s/he didn't study at all for the MPT. I don't doubt that OP is a good writer, but having literally no experience with regards to that portion of the exam doesn't really qualify OP to be an accurate predictor of his/her relative performance even if the test were fresh on his/her mind. And there's literally no basis to believe that the graders "didn't read" the essays, and I've never seen any reports on correlation between MEE scores, MBE scores and MPT scores to give even the slightest suggestion that this is the case. This is almost certainly one of those TLS rumors that is entirely baseless and somehow gets legs.

I think the moral of this story is two-fold: First, congratulations to OP on passing the bar. Second, let this be a warning to future readers to not totally ignore preparing for the MPT. It does not have to be a difficult part of the exam, and indeed should inure to the benefit of most takers. Nevertheless, it is possible to score low on it, and if you choose to ignore it, you do so at your own peril.

[S. Goodman]

It's not weird grading, it's just math. When the MBE = 50% of your score, if you do well enough on the MBE, you don't need good scores on the essays.

The low score on the MPT is probably because there tends to be a lot of emphasis on format and organization, and if you didn't study that part at all you could get downgraded pretty easily for not providing the answer the way they wanted to see it, even if the content isn't bad. It doesn't mean a score was assigned randomly.

It is math but I am highlighting his MPT vs MEE score. the OP thinks his organization and format was adequate and I believe him based on his MEE scores. The graders probably did not read his MPT.

OP is more than two months out from the test and wrote the MPT under timed conditions. Perhaps more to the point, OP has admitted that s/he didn't study at all for the MPT. I don't doubt that OP is a good writer, but having literally no experience with regards to that portion of the exam doesn't really qualify OP to be an accurate predictor of his/her relative performance even if the test were fresh on his/her mind. And there's literally no basis to believe that the graders "didn't read" the essays, and I've never seen any reports on correlation between MEE scores, MBE scores and MPT scores to give even the slightest suggestion that this is the case. This is almost certainly one of those TLS rumors that is entirely baseless and somehow gets legs.

I think the moral of this story is two-fold: First, congratulations to OP on passing the bar. Second, let this be a warning to future readers to not totally ignore preparing for the MPT. It does not have to be a difficult part of the exam, and indeed should inure to the benefit of most takers. Nevertheless, it is possible to score low on it, and if you choose to ignore it, you do so at your own peril.

Well said. However, there was a monumental amount of information to work on during bar prep. If I had had more time and unlimited paitience I certainly would've devoted additional time to MPT prep. But for my state at least, the MPT wasn't very valuable real estate. I really wanted to maximize my return on invested study time, which is why I focused pretty much exclusively on the MBE.

I really did feel like I did decent on the MPT though. Not sure whether that lends credence to the theories above. Understandably this was awhile ago and there is no way to discern whether my performance in actuality was as good as I imagined. It seems unlikely that the MPT grader would know my MBE score, but also if they had known my score they would have also realized that I didn't need a strong MPT score to pass, which maybe would incentivize glossing over my answers on the MPT.

Who knows what goes on behind closed doors. I would still recommend saving MPT prep until you're confident on everything else.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yeah, except maybe in California (I hear their MPT is nasty) I don't think it's worth studying much for the MPT at all. Whether your MPTs were good or not, you passed just fine. Barbri just harped on the importance of format and organization and it *looking* the way the graders want, so it's worth paying a little attention to that in whatever prep course you take. But I think for most people effort in studying other areas pays off more.

[udonisandtrinity]

maybe they skip it and assign random grades, maybe they just skim through it, you also have no evidence to support that graders sufficiently read our essays and MPTs. You cannot dismiss the suggestion that graders sometimes skip over a question or MPT. Is someone watching them grade? are essays/mpt graded in its entirety by more than one person?

my theory is based on personal experience. i helped my friend/classmate deal with failing the bar twice. NY gives you your essays and mpt when you fail. We had two sets since he had ordered them both admins. The first time he took it, he had above average scores on both essays and his mpt, however, the quality of his work did not actually warrant those scores imo. A Kaplan essay grader agreed.

with the second set, he received lower scores than his first try but his essays and MPT, at least imo, was solid. and guess what, a Kaplan essay grader graded them and the score they gave was a lot higher.

please note that his MPT for the first try was 4 paragraphs long, he missed nearly half of the questions asked in the memo. it was something you and i could have written in 30 minutes or less. His second try? He actually finished his MPT and the organization and format was picture perfect, the analysis seemed solid too. but he scored less.

there are countless stories like this one that make me believe that the written portion is truly a toss-up.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Inconsistent/bad grading doesn't mean there's a conspiracy to overlook essays based on MBE scores, though. It's just the nature of grading that when you have multiple people grading a large number of essays on the same topic you're going to get inconsistencies. Also graders' expectations inevitably change based on all the other essays they read - maybe when your friend got lower scores on a better MPT, lots of people wrote even better ones (I know it's not graded on a curve but it's human nature that if you're grading something and you read lots and lots of bad essays, an okay one may end up with a better grade than if the okay one is surrounded by tons and tons of excellent essays).

You'll note I've never said the grading couldn't be inconsistent or inaccurate. My point is just that the problems with the grades come from the nature of the beast, as well as probably differences in training/experience on the part of the graders, and don't come from any kind of conspiracy based on MBE scores or personal characteristics or the like.

[udonisandtrinity]

Yes, this is arbitrary grading as i have suggested above.

acknowledging and even accepting that our grades are subject to human nature/ human error and human indecency is what makes the written portion a crap shoot. When an MPT is only 20% complete and outscores another MPT that is 90% complete by SEVERAL POINTS, with each MPT having the same organizational/formatting styles, it is definitely arbitrary grading. again, you cannot dismiss the suggestion that they flat out skip essays or an MPT.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Have you ever graded a large number of essays in a short time?

My point is mostly that you want to chalk up to malice what I'm saying is ineptitude.

Again, fucked-up essay grading doesn't have anything to do with your MBE scores. And re: the MPT, if they're on different topics on different exams they're being graded on different scales (also by different people who may have different training and amounts of experience etc.).

[udonisandtrinity]

malice vs ineptitude, does it matter? it's still arbitrary grading at best. By scoring 140+, you are much more likely to be shielded against fucked-up essay grading. no person, inept or evil or otherwise, can destroy you if you do very well on your MBE.

"different people who may have different training and amounts of experience etc." results in arbitrary grading.

[A. Nony Mouse]

That is exactly what I have been saying since the beginning of this conversation - that's it just math, not consciousness of your MBE score on the grader's part. There's a thread on here about how an MBE above a certain percentage is auto-pass - not because graders care about your MBE but because mathematically the high MBE carries you.

You were the one who was attributing it to malice so it seemed to matter to you.

(And part of the prep in bar courses emphasizes making everything as clear and easy to grasp with as little effort as possible to make it easy for the grader to give you all the possible points. There can be problems with grading but that doesn't mean every essay grade is arbitrary.)

[udonisandtrinity]

Your argument based on "math" is flawed.

accumulate all the passing scores you can get ur hands on and tell me how many of them passed with sub-par MBE scores. VERY FEW.

The MBE is 50%, as is the MEE and MPT. Mathematically, it's possible to get an MBE score in the 120-135 and still pass because of a strong written grade...lots of state require 266 as the min. a 127 on your mbe combined with a 139 on your written doesn't sound unreasonable. but you will see that for every 20 passing scores, 1 will have an MBE score of less than the mean for that administration. is it because that 1 person who received a much lower MBE score is so much better skilled at writing than all those folks who by standardized testing measures are likely to be smarter? no it's luck based on arbitrary grading. the grader probably had a great day, or previously graded essays that were absolute trash, but it can also be something else...

[A. Nony Mouse]

How on earth do you know it's not because that person was better at writing? That is actually a thing.

The other thing is that the MBE has fewer subjects, they're subjects everyone took in law school, and has been around much longer than the other portions of the UBE, so it's not surprising that most people perform better on the MBE than on the essays (I never took 1/2 the subjects on my MEEs so I know those essays were weaker than my understanding of say torts).

I really think you are reading way to much into these things.

[udonisandtrinity]

go back to your "math" argument and look at the numbers.

You have a group of twenty or more exam takers who score 140-160 on their MBEs. They all pass. Then you have one person who scores a 128 and still manages to pass. Are you saying that this one person has better writing skills than the thousands of failures who also got a 128 or HIGHER? if he or she just that AMAZING when it comes to writing? if the written was graded fairly and actually given equal grading weight, you would see thousands of more passing scores with shitty MBE scores.