How hard is it to get 65 on California essays (Barbri is confusing)?

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james11

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Re: How hard is it to get 65 on California essays (Barbri is confusing)?

Postby james11 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:16 pm

lacrossebrother wrote: bottom 20% at any law school outside the top 6 should not be lawyers.


Where do you come up with this?

james11

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Re: How hard is it to get 65 on California essays (Barbri is confusing)?

Postby james11 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:59 pm

For the final two weeks of study, I suggest outlining as many essays as possible. Take 20 minutes to read an essay and write out all of the issues and rule statements to see if you are recognizing the correct issues and getting the rule statements and subissues/subrules.

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rcharter1978

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Re: How hard is it to get 65 on California essays (Barbri is confusing)?

Postby rcharter1978 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:17 am

There are a few points I agree with:

1. Knowing the law is better than trying to cold memorize rule statements. If you can do it, thats awesome, but I think....to ElPollito's point that if you understand the subject, you can sort of make up the law/rule statement and go from there. I still believe its supposed to be "holistic" grading, so it may be worth something just that you're on the right track and you sort of know what you're talking about.

2. This philosophy may be helpful because its hard to memorize absolutely everything in every subject. California has what, 13 subjects that can be tested? Thats a lot to learn

3. If the person who got an 85 failed, it may be because he focused too much of his time and attention on CP and didn't focus on other essay areas.

4. I would NOT sleep on California Civil Procedure. There was a Civ Pro question in July '15, there was a California Evidence question Feb '16. It doesn't seem too far fetched for California Civ Pro to be an essay subject pretty soon. I might give less time to CA PR distinctions, because PR almost always seems to be a cross over question, and most of the time you're asked to answer according to both the ABA and CA rules. To me, it seems like there are so many other places to get points that if you don't quite get the CA distinctions down pat it may not really make you lose a ton of points. Just to be clear, the chances are very high that you'll get a PR question, I just think that most of them tend to be cross over questions.

james11

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Re: How hard is it to get 65 on California essays (Barbri is confusing)?

Postby james11 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:44 pm

james11 wrote:
lacrossebrother wrote:
james11 wrote:
El Pollito wrote:
i didn't learn much state law. i made up most or all of the law for the non-PT essays and just applied made up law. you can get a lot of points for doing that.


"Making up" the law is a nice way to get you a 50 or 55. The problem with this approach is that, by not learning the law you will not know all of the elements to a rule. By not knowing the elements to a rule you will miss sub-issues and sub-rules, and then fail the essay eventually.

Compare the real essays that score 55 vs 65 vs 75 and you will see the differences and what rules and issues are actually important to hit.

You can fail essays and still pass the exam by blowing away the PTs and MBE, but nobody should bank on doing this. You should aim to pass everything because you never know how things will turn out.

This is weird advice. "Just pass everything." state law only matters for evidence and PR. They've never tested ca civ pro. And the other shit just follows restatements/ucc's. Maybe there's like one or two special caveats in wills/trusts? Community property is a two minute subject: if it existed before, or was intended to not come into the marriage, then it's not in there. Boom.

Here's my advice: prioritize learning evidence distinctions, then all the rest of mbe subjects, then PR.


Just because something worked for you does not mean it will work for everyone. There is no such thing as a "two minute subject." Maybe you are a genius that can learn a subject in two minutes, but the vast majority of people cannot. Community property is far more than "if it existed before, or was intended to not come into the marriage, then it's not in there. Boom." That's ridiculous.

There are more than "one or two special caveats" in wills/trusts. State law matters for all of the state law subjects. Your advice seems to blow off a lot of subjects. This is dangerous gambling and no review course/tutor would ever tell anyone to do this. California Civ Pro could very well be tested. It is due to be tested. It means nothing (except to gamble) to say it has not been tested. California wills/PR/evidence could be tested as well. And don't EVER count on "making up the law." This is a recipe for failure.


So much for the person that said not to study CA Civ Pro because "[t]hey've never tested ca civ pro." They just tested it on day 1.

2TimesTheCharm

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Re: How hard is it to get 65 on California essays (Barbri is confusing)?

Postby 2TimesTheCharm » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:21 am

lacrossebrother wrote:Trying to ace this exam is a gamble. It is not an intelligence test. It is a competency exam. And it is a very good school. But bottom 20% at any law school outside the top 6 should not be lawyers.


Bottom 20% of any school should not be lawyers.

But you're right in that trying to ace a subject is not a good idea. All 65's is still better than 80, 55, 55.

sssnuggles

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Re: How hard is it to get 65 on California essays (Barbri is confusing)?

Postby sssnuggles » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:39 am

Grading is arbitrary sometimes... I subscribed to BarEssays and have looked at 200+ gradedessays.

SERIOUSLY.... a 65 paper graded right after the grader just got chewed out by their spouse for tracking dirt through the house, is MUCH different than a 65 paper graded right after the grader saw his toddler take their first steps. Sometimes you look at a paper and can't figure out why they were higher/lower than others you just read. While the graders go through rigorous checks to make sure they are on point and consistent with the rest of the group... they are human just like us and can grade subjectively based on opinion, preference to writing style, and/or personal events in their life.

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Re: How hard is it to get 65 on California essays (Barbri is confusing)?

Postby esweiss » Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:06 pm

I signed up for this dumb site just to respond to some academic genius who goes by the user name "lacrossebrother". The name pretty much gives us an indication as to how far we should run with this guys advice. Getting advise on who should and should not be lawyers from a bunch of academics who are (a) touting their law school name or (b) not actually practicing attorney is simply puppy-cock.

I am a practicing corporate lawyer in NY and NJ. Solid student from a T-4 school who works at a firm with everyone from Harvard grads to NYU grads and let me tell you something. This fucking T-4 kid runs circles around them. I bring in more business as a law student three years out and have earned the respect of the partners to handle sophisticated M&A work, while these numb nuts T-1 grads can't raise a smile let alone some quality business.

Here is the bottom line. Don't listen to a bunch of schmucks who have nothing to hang their hat on but some fucking institution that took $150K out there pockets and gave them a nice sweater. Like anything in life....if you want it enough....you go out and get/learn it and leave the rest of the legal fraternity squad in the dust. For young lawyers I would say the business is first about training followed by building your own client base. Down the road the latter will be the difference between a partner and at-best a service partner (i.e., the guy working for you.

iliketurtles123

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Re: How hard is it to get 65 on California essays (Barbri is confusing)?

Postby iliketurtles123 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:52 pm

rcharter1978 wrote:There are a few points I agree with:

1. Knowing the law is better than trying to cold memorize rule statements. If you can do it, thats awesome, but I think....to ElPollito's point that if you understand the subject, you can sort of make up the law/rule statement and go from there. I still believe its supposed to be "holistic" grading, so it may be worth something just that you're on the right track and you sort of know what you're talking about.

2. This philosophy may be helpful because its hard to memorize absolutely everything in every subject. California has what, 13 subjects that can be tested? Thats a lot to learn

3. If the person who got an 85 failed, it may be because he focused too much of his time and attention on CP and didn't focus on other essay areas.

4. I would NOT sleep on California Civil Procedure. There was a Civ Pro question in July '15, there was a California Evidence question Feb '16. It doesn't seem too far fetched for California Civ Pro to be an essay subject pretty soon. I might give less time to CA PR distinctions, because PR almost always seems to be a cross over question, and most of the time you're asked to answer according to both the ABA and CA rules. To me, it seems like there are so many other places to get points that if you don't quite get the CA distinctions down pat it may not really make you lose a ton of points. Just to be clear, the chances are very high that you'll get a PR question, I just think that most of them tend to be cross over questions.



You have your own CA Bar prediction blog

trojankid09

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Re: How hard is it to get 65 on California essays (Barbri is confusing)?

Postby trojankid09 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:32 pm

Random question - anything wrong with doing separate paragraphs for IRAC?
For example,

The issue is whether...

The rules are ...

Here, analysis...

Thus/therefore...

I did that on the Bar just to make the IRAC as clear as possible

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rcharter1978

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Re: How hard is it to get 65 on California essays (Barbri is confusing)?

Postby rcharter1978 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:47 pm

iliketurtles123 wrote:
rcharter1978 wrote:There are a few points I agree with:

1. Knowing the law is better than trying to cold memorize rule statements. If you can do it, thats awesome, but I think....to ElPollito's point that if you understand the subject, you can sort of make up the law/rule statement and go from there. I still believe its supposed to be "holistic" grading, so it may be worth something just that you're on the right track and you sort of know what you're talking about.

2. This philosophy may be helpful because its hard to memorize absolutely everything in every subject. California has what, 13 subjects that can be tested? Thats a lot to learn

3. If the person who got an 85 failed, it may be because he focused too much of his time and attention on CP and didn't focus on other essay areas.

4. I would NOT sleep on California Civil Procedure. There was a Civ Pro question in July '15, there was a California Evidence question Feb '16. It doesn't seem too far fetched for California Civ Pro to be an essay subject pretty soon. I might give less time to CA PR distinctions, because PR almost always seems to be a cross over question, and most of the time you're asked to answer according to both the ABA and CA rules. To me, it seems like there are so many other places to get points that if you don't quite get the CA distinctions down pat it may not really make you lose a ton of points. Just to be clear, the chances are very high that you'll get a PR question, I just think that most of them tend to be cross over questions.



You have your own CA Bar prediction blog


LOL -- I know right? :lol:

LurkerTurnedMember

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Re: How hard is it to get 65 on California essays (Barbri is confusing)?

Postby LurkerTurnedMember » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:42 am

trojankid09 wrote:Random question - anything wrong with doing separate paragraphs for IRAC?
For example,

The issue is whether...

The rules are ...

Here, analysis...

Thus/therefore...

I did that on the Bar just to make the IRAC as clear as possible


That's exactly what you're supposed to do....

trojankid09

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Re: How hard is it to get 65 on California essays (Barbri is confusing)?

Postby trojankid09 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:58 am

Haha thanks LurkerTurnedMember. I just noticed that most Barbri model answers and the top exams on the California Bar website often combine their IRAC all in one paragraph...whereas I literally did a separate paragraph for each.

LurkerTurnedMember

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Re: How hard is it to get 65 on California essays (Barbri is confusing)?

Postby LurkerTurnedMember » Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:38 am

trojankid09 wrote:Haha thanks LurkerTurnedMember. I just noticed that most Barbri model answers and the top exams on the California Bar website often combine their IRAC all in one paragraph...whereas I literally did a separate paragraph for each.


I noticed that, too. But doing it like you did it is just an example of better writing. It's clear, succinct for each piece of IRAC, and when the bar grader's eyes are skimming down and s/he's just looking at topic sentences, s/he'll have an easier time to spot you spotting the issue, the rule, analysis, and conclusion. And even Barbri beat it into our heads at the beginning to do that. I was surprised how the model answers on their essays for almost all subjects after about essay 3 just started answering in long paragraphs, not saying expressly what the issue was, and just overall not following Barbri's own format. I considered doing that on the exam but luckily I had more than enough time to make it clear like you did.



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