NY July 2015 Support Group

User avatar
smaug
Posts: 12669
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:31 pm

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby smaug » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:07 pm

Ajren Robben wrote:My impression is that MBE is a black box because of how confusing the questions are. So studying more for MBE may not help very much since you will end up guessing on a lot of the questions anyway. On the other hand, on the essays (and short answers) the questions are a lot more clear-cut and simply test whether you know the rules, so memorizing more rules is likely to produce a higher score. This impression was confirmed by my feeling coming out of the exam. I felt that those many hours I spent memorizing state laws have definitely paid off for the most part. I could not imagine answering those questions as well without knowing the many detailed rules. As to the MBE, I felt about the same as I did after the midterm, having to guess on a lot of the questions. The jury is still out on whether I pass and with what score. I took TX.

My Barbri midterm raw score was like a 141. I also thought that midterm review lectures were hugely helpful. But I didn't do very much for the MBE after that. Fingers crossed.


I'm sure you'll pass but this seems entirely backwards.

User avatar
sd5289
Posts: 1624
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby sd5289 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:08 pm

gchatbrah wrote:To sort of build on this, I also think test taking strategy is helpful -- the first thing I did when I received the essays in the morning and afternoon was to briefly scan all prompts, to get a sense of what was coming. This was actually crucial for me in the afternoon -- saw there was an Admin essay, had not studied Admin for more than 2 hours, so I knew I would only need about 10-15 minutes to spew whatever bullshit I was going to put down instead. That let me toss 2 full hours into the MPT; when they award points for formatting, that extra time was essential. I only got a 132.x on the MBE, so I think this strategy was helpful on the essay portion.


Agreed.

Especially on this MPT. There was very clearly a tone that you were expected to go for that you wouldn't see in the typical "write out a memo analyzing the law and facts blah dee blah." I actually thought the MPT was the hardest one I saw (I think I did 2 of them and outlined another 3 over the summer). At the very least, it was different than a lot of the practice ones we did. And I can see how one would easily miss that instruction if they were rushing through. The MPT should be the easiest section on the bar because all of the information you need is right in front of you. I'd finished the essays with a little time to spare (I did spend a lot of time doing practice essays to break up the monotony of doing MBE practice sets), but I took the full 90 minutes on this MPT.

User avatar
Ajren Robben
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:51 pm

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby Ajren Robben » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:17 pm

smaug wrote:
Ajren Robben wrote:My impression is that MBE is a black box because of how confusing the questions are. So studying more for MBE may not help very much since you will end up guessing on a lot of the questions anyway. On the other hand, on the essays (and short answers) the questions are a lot more clear-cut and simply test whether you know the rules, so memorizing more rules is likely to produce a higher score. This impression was confirmed by my feeling coming out of the exam. I felt that those many hours I spent memorizing state laws have definitely paid off for the most part. I could not imagine answering those questions as well without knowing the many detailed rules. As to the MBE, I felt about the same as I did after the midterm, having to guess on a lot of the questions. The jury is still out on whether I pass and with what score. I took TX.

My Barbri midterm raw score was like a 141. I also thought that midterm review lectures were hugely helpful. But I didn't do very much for the MBE after that. Fingers crossed.


I'm sure you'll pass but this seems entirely backwards.


I know. I've had a feeling I was in the minority for approaching it that way. My score will tell. For science.

User avatar
SemperLegal
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:28 pm

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby SemperLegal » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:56 pm

Ajren Robben wrote:
smaug wrote:I think this thread shows the easiest way to pass is to cram MBE and not study essays at all



I've heard this several times, but how can it be true if NY is 60% state and 40% MBE weighted?


Also, NY isn't a strange jurisdiction. If you learn the MBE rules, your halfway to getting the NY essays right (there is no indication that NY favors distinctions) then just read admin and see what you shake out. Worse comes to worse, apply mbe rules and get partial points for process, and a decent amount of points for explaining the elements of negligence.

nyny
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:53 am

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby nyny » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:58 pm

SemperLegal wrote:
Ajren Robben wrote:
smaug wrote:I think this thread shows the easiest way to pass is to cram MBE and not study essays at all



I've heard this several times, but how can it be true if NY is 60% state and 40% MBE weighted?


Also, NY isn't a strange jurisdiction. If you learn the MBE rules, your halfway to getting the NY essays right (there is no indication that NY favors distinctions) then just read admin and see what you shake out. Worse comes to worse, apply mbe rules and get partial points for process, and a decent amount of points for explaining the elements of negligence.


Ahh, maybe when the exam was a "minimal competence" essay you can get away with not knowing the NY distinctions... But now you have to know them or you will have a hard time passing the exam.

User avatar
smaug
Posts: 12669
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:31 pm

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby smaug » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:58 pm

I don't understand this flame.

gabewatch
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:15 am

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby gabewatch » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:12 pm

If someone hasn't already talked about this: we should clear up the CLE email/physical letter rumours for all future generations of NY bar takers. It means nothing. I was pretty sure I passed the bar because I figured I've always been fine at exams, did the whole Kaplan course, and took it seriously. But, when I started reading about CLE emails and letters, and how last year it actually meant something, I freaked out. It was a rough two weeks leading up to results. Shouldn't have been reading this website.

I didn't get a single CLE email, letter, or correspondence of any kind. And I passed. So obviously there is nothing there. Hopefully saves someone the anxiety I went through in the future.

Believe
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:14 am

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby Believe » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:23 pm

As if I hadn't already written enough... :D

One other thing I did differently this year is that I used a laptop. Last year I did not, and my handwriting is terrible when I’m rushing (legible but probably makes the reader unhappy). Using a laptop allowed me to organize my essays and MPT answers a lot better.

User avatar
SemperLegal
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:28 pm

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby SemperLegal » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:35 pm

nyny wrote:
SemperLegal wrote:
Ajren Robben wrote:
smaug wrote:I think this thread shows the easiest way to pass is to cram MBE and not study essays at all



I've heard this several times, but how can it be true if NY is 60% state and 40% MBE weighted?


Also, NY isn't a strange jurisdiction. If you learn the MBE rules, your halfway to getting the NY essays right (there is no indication that NY favors distinctions) then just read admin and see what you shake out. Worse comes to worse, apply mbe rules and get partial points for process, and a decent amount of points for explaining the elements of negligence.


Ahh, maybe when the exam was a "minimal competence" essay you can get away with not knowing the NY distinctions... But now you have to know them or you will have a hard time passing the exam.


I don't know. Worked for me.

User avatar
smaug
Posts: 12669
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:31 pm

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby smaug » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:43 pm

SemperLegal wrote:I don't know. Worked for me.

Ditto. My MBE wasn't even that amazing. I don't think you actually need to know the law to do OK to well on the essays.

User avatar
sd5289
Posts: 1624
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby sd5289 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:04 am

The point above that if you know the MBE rules than you're halfway there on the NY essays is correct. There are some random NY distinctions in there, but I think it was the K's essay that was basically the MBE. I don't remember any of the random NY distinctions (maybe one, but I don't remember what it is at this point) coming up.

So yes, hammer the MBE. Make sure you know those rules for sure. Then pick up as many of the NY distinctions* as you can. Just remember to practice IRAC'ing so it's second nature to you in case you run into another Admin-like essay in February.

* also, don't stress yourself over the NYMC. I think I may have actually known 5-10 of those and plain guessed on the rest.

Cscottrun
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 10:01 am

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby Cscottrun » Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:33 am

As I mentioned earlier, I took Pieper, and one of the things he really pushed on us was the distinctions. He gave hundreds of them. I really don't remember having to apply many of them. Even on the NY multiple choice, most of the questions were just general law, not so much NY specific. Obviously applied some NY rules on the essays, but I definitely expected it to be more of a distinction based test.

User avatar
SemperLegal
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:28 pm

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby SemperLegal » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:34 am

Cscottrun wrote:As I mentioned earlier, I took Pieper, and one of the things he really pushed on us was the distinctions. He gave hundreds of them. I really don't remember having to apply many of them. Even on the NY multiple choice, most of the questions were just general law, not so much NY specific. Obviously applied some NY rules on the essays, but I definitely expected it to be more of a distinction based test.


I don't want to be too cynical, but I think most lecture based courses over emphasized distinctions because: 1) you can sell multiple versions of the same course to people taking it in more than one jx, 2) mbe lends itself to low overhead prep companies/courses 3) law professors love, love, love teaching distinctions and minority rules.

But, on the other hand, if I had a child in law school, I'd recommend they do the full BarBri, distinctions included. Tried, true, and inefficient trumps new, high speed, and untested.

User avatar
Ajren Robben
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:51 pm

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby Ajren Robben » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:12 am

SemperLegal wrote:
Ajren Robben wrote:
smaug wrote:I think this thread shows the easiest way to pass is to cram MBE and not study essays at all



I've heard this several times, but how can it be true if NY is 60% state and 40% MBE weighted?


Also, NY isn't a strange jurisdiction. If you learn the MBE rules, your halfway to getting the NY essays right (there is no indication that NY favors distinctions) then just read admin and see what you shake out. Worse comes to worse, apply mbe rules and get partial points for process, and a decent amount of points for explaining the elements of negligence.



I felt that there was almost zero overlap between MBE and TX stuff. I mean there is no trusts/wills/estate, negotiable instruments, oil+gas (very TX specific as you can see), family law, community property, corporate/associations law, secured transactions, etc. etc. on the MBE. Even the regular property question was completely obscure state type of law. TX also has state crim and civil procedures short answer questions which have zero relationship to civ pro tested on the MBE (TX stuff was mainly on motions, conferences, pre-trial stuff, and a gazillion other rules without an analogue in MBE's fed civ pro/crim). It was not really about distinctions, but more like about learning 15 different new subjects.

User avatar
Danger Zone
Posts: 7316
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:36 am

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby Danger Zone » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:33 am

I didn't know any of the NY distinctions on test day.

AReasonableMan
Posts: 1504
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:32 pm

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby AReasonableMan » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:40 am

sd5289 wrote:
gchatbrah wrote:To sort of build on this, I also think test taking strategy is helpful -- the first thing I did when I received the essays in the morning and afternoon was to briefly scan all prompts, to get a sense of what was coming. This was actually crucial for me in the afternoon -- saw there was an Admin essay, had not studied Admin for more than 2 hours, so I knew I would only need about 10-15 minutes to spew whatever bullshit I was going to put down instead. That let me toss 2 full hours into the MPT; when they award points for formatting, that extra time was essential. I only got a 132.x on the MBE, so I think this strategy was helpful on the essay portion.


Agreed.

Especially on this MPT. There was very clearly a tone that you were expected to go for that you wouldn't see in the typical "write out a memo analyzing the law and facts blah dee blah." I actually thought the MPT was the hardest one I saw (I think I did 2 of them and outlined another 3 over the summer). At the very least, it was different than a lot of the practice ones we did. And I can see how one would easily miss that instruction if they were rushing through. The MPT should be the easiest section on the bar because all of the information you need is right in front of you. I'd finished the essays with a little time to spare (I did spend a lot of time doing practice essays to break up the monotony of doing MBE practice sets), but I took the full 90 minutes on this MPT.

I did this too, and recognized I was fucked on Essay 5. I decided to just spend 1:45 on the MPT and 1 hour on Essay 4. I knew I was capable of getting A's in law school if I got the right question, and knew 4 to a tee. I couldn't have gotten much more than a 30 on 5, but I didn't know any of the laws so if I spent an hour there, I'd have still probably been under a 40 and wouldn't have had the 65 or 70 I think I got on 4. Of course, it's all guessing and I'll never know.

skim6054
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:11 pm

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby skim6054 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:53 am

I've been lurking for a while but decided to post b/c TLS has been a good support system. Why do we do this to ourselves again?!

I'm hoping to spread some good karma around. For those who are retaking in Feb, I have a set of gently used Barbri books. The books are located in NJ. The only book missing is the Miniconviser. First come basis. Books are free but you'll probably have to pay for shipping.

PM if you're interested.

User avatar
SemperLegal
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:28 pm

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby SemperLegal » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:21 am

Ajren Robben wrote:
SemperLegal wrote:
Ajren Robben wrote:
smaug wrote:I think this thread shows the easiest way to pass is to cram MBE and not study essays at all



I've heard this several times, but how can it be true if NY is 60% state and 40% MBE weighted?


Also, NY isn't a strange jurisdiction. If you learn the MBE rules, your halfway to getting the NY essays right (there is no indication that NY favors distinctions) then just read admin and see what you shake out. Worse comes to worse, apply mbe rules and get partial points for process, and a decent amount of points for explaining the elements of negligence.



I felt that there was almost zero overlap between MBE and TX stuff. I mean there is no trusts/wills/estate, negotiable instruments, oil+gas (very TX specific as you can see), family law, community property, corporate/associations law, secured transactions, etc. etc. on the MBE. Even the regular property question was completely obscure state type of law. TX also has state crim and civil procedures short answer questions which have zero relationship to civ pro tested on the MBE (TX stuff was mainly on motions, conferences, pre-trial stuff, and a gazillion other rules without an analogue in MBE's fed civ pro/crim). It was not really about distinctions, but more like about learning 15 different new subjects.


There's also very little overlap between MBE and what's on the civil service exam. But no-one here cares.




I mean this nicely, but are you sure you mean to be in this thread? This is the NY support group, not the general Bar Exam thread.

User avatar
Ajren Robben
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:51 pm

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby Ajren Robben » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:32 am

SemperLegal wrote:
Ajren Robben wrote:
SemperLegal wrote:
Ajren Robben wrote:
smaug wrote:I think this thread shows the easiest way to pass is to cram MBE and not study essays at all



I've heard this several times, but how can it be true if NY is 60% state and 40% MBE weighted?


Also, NY isn't a strange jurisdiction. If you learn the MBE rules, your halfway to getting the NY essays right (there is no indication that NY favors distinctions) then just read admin and see what you shake out. Worse comes to worse, apply mbe rules and get partial points for process, and a decent amount of points for explaining the elements of negligence.



I felt that there was almost zero overlap between MBE and TX stuff. I mean there is no trusts/wills/estate, negotiable instruments, oil+gas (very TX specific as you can see), family law, community property, corporate/associations law, secured transactions, etc. etc. on the MBE. Even the regular property question was completely obscure state type of law. TX also has state crim and civil procedures short answer questions which have zero relationship to civ pro tested on the MBE (TX stuff was mainly on motions, conferences, pre-trial stuff, and a gazillion other rules without an analogue in MBE's fed civ pro/crim). It was not really about distinctions, but more like about learning 15 different new subjects.


There's also very little overlap between MBE and what's on the civil service exam. But no-one here cares.




I mean this nicely, but are you sure you mean to be in this thread? This is the NY support group, not the general Bar Exam thread.


I'm interested in seeing what the differences are between TX and NY and just offering my perspective. You don't have to read or comment. And I do mean this nicely.

User avatar
SemperLegal
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:28 pm

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby SemperLegal » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:35 am

Ajren Robben wrote:
SemperLegal wrote:
Ajren Robben wrote:
SemperLegal wrote:
Ajren Robben wrote:
smaug wrote:I think this thread shows the easiest way to pass is to cram MBE and not study essays at all



I've heard this several times, but how can it be true if NY is 60% state and 40% MBE weighted?


Also, NY isn't a strange jurisdiction. If you learn the MBE rules, your halfway to getting the NY essays right (there is no indication that NY favors distinctions) then just read admin and see what you shake out. Worse comes to worse, apply mbe rules and get partial points for process, and a decent amount of points for explaining the elements of negligence.



I felt that there was almost zero overlap between MBE and TX stuff. I mean there is no trusts/wills/estate, negotiable instruments, oil+gas (very TX specific as you can see), family law, community property, corporate/associations law, secured transactions, etc. etc. on the MBE. Even the regular property question was completely obscure state type of law. TX also has state crim and civil procedures short answer questions which have zero relationship to civ pro tested on the MBE (TX stuff was mainly on motions, conferences, pre-trial stuff, and a gazillion other rules without an analogue in MBE's fed civ pro/crim). It was not really about distinctions, but more like about learning 15 different new subjects.


There's also very little overlap between MBE and what's on the civil service exam. But no-one here cares.




I mean this nicely, but are you sure you mean to be in this thread? This is the NY support group, not the general Bar Exam thread.


I'm interested in seeing what the differences are between TX and NY and just offering my perspective. You don't have to read or comment. And I do mean this nicely.


Seems like a selfish derailment of a support thread, unless you are actually taking A N.Y.exam in February.

User avatar
Ajren Robben
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:51 pm

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby Ajren Robben » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:44 am

SemperLegal wrote:
Ajren Robben wrote:
SemperLegal wrote:
Ajren Robben wrote:
SemperLegal wrote:
Ajren Robben wrote:
smaug wrote:I think this thread shows the easiest way to pass is to cram MBE and not study essays at all



I've heard this several times, but how can it be true if NY is 60% state and 40% MBE weighted?


Also, NY isn't a strange jurisdiction. If you learn the MBE rules, your halfway to getting the NY essays right (there is no indication that NY favors distinctions) then just read admin and see what you shake out. Worse comes to worse, apply mbe rules and get partial points for process, and a decent amount of points for explaining the elements of negligence.



I felt that there was almost zero overlap between MBE and TX stuff. I mean there is no trusts/wills/estate, negotiable instruments, oil+gas (very TX specific as you can see), family law, community property, corporate/associations law, secured transactions, etc. etc. on the MBE. Even the regular property question was completely obscure state type of law. TX also has state crim and civil procedures short answer questions which have zero relationship to civ pro tested on the MBE (TX stuff was mainly on motions, conferences, pre-trial stuff, and a gazillion other rules without an analogue in MBE's fed civ pro/crim). It was not really about distinctions, but more like about learning 15 different new subjects.


There's also very little overlap between MBE and what's on the civil service exam. But no-one here cares.




I mean this nicely, but are you sure you mean to be in this thread? This is the NY support group, not the general Bar Exam thread.


I'm interested in seeing what the differences are between TX and NY and just offering my perspective. You don't have to read or comment. And I do mean this nicely.


Seems like a selfish derailment of a support thread, unless you are actually taking A N.Y.exam in February.


I sort of surmised that the stream of results has petered out and that Feb NY takers now have their own thread. Just thought some people may want to further reflect on the bar exam, even if it is with someone from another jurisdiction. I didn't mean to derail a helpful discussion for the NY takers, and if I did, I apologize.

nyny
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:53 am

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby nyny » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:28 pm

One thing I can't wait for are the model answers... I still dying to know what the heck that immunity issue was on essay #4... Know one i have spoken to seems to have a legit answer, lol

Cscottrun
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 10:01 am

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby Cscottrun » Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:03 pm

nyny wrote:One thing I can't wait for are the model answers... I still dying to know what the heck that immunity issue was on essay #4... Know one i have spoken to seems to have a legit answer, lol


When do the model answers usually come out?

User avatar
Danger Zone
Posts: 7316
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:36 am

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby Danger Zone » Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:37 pm

Fuck off AR, your analysis has been useless

And I don't mean this nicely

starryski
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:04 am

Re: NY July 2015 Support Group

Postby starryski » Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:49 pm

nyny wrote:One thing I can't wait for are the model answers... I still dying to know what the heck that immunity issue was on essay #4... Know one i have spoken to seems to have a legit answer, lol


it was the recreational use statute.




Return to “Bar Exam Prep and Discussion Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], MSNbot Media, optimistic_owl and 4 guests