BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

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Good Guy Gaud
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Good Guy Gaud » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:11 am

Yea, they're answers are just outrageous.

Charger
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Charger » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:15 am

catch12 wrote:
brotherdarkness wrote:
cdelgado wrote:Yeah I have yet to be sold on the idea that it doesn't take much to recieve a passing grade on the essays.


If the former dean of SLS couldn't cobble together passing answers, I assume you might actually have to know some law.


This is exactly what I'm worried about. I've seen some pretty good 60s on baressays.com. There's no way I'm gonna recite these rules word for word, and I'm unsure of how close we really have to come or how much analysis can really make up for messing up rules.


This. I often can't tell the 60s from the 65s on baressays.com. Sometimes I can't even tell between the 55s and 65s. This is by far the most terrifying part about the exam, just having absolutely no idea what a passing essay looks like versus a failing one. A couple people around here have said stuff like, "just make a good faith effort, it'll be alright, bro!" but I'm not at all convinced that's the case for CA based on what I see on baressays.com.

Neff
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Neff » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:21 am

Charger wrote:
catch12 wrote:
brotherdarkness wrote:
cdelgado wrote:Yeah I have yet to be sold on the idea that it doesn't take much to recieve a passing grade on the essays.


If the former dean of SLS couldn't cobble together passing answers, I assume you might actually have to know some law.


This is exactly what I'm worried about. I've seen some pretty good 60s on baressays.com. There's no way I'm gonna recite these rules word for word, and I'm unsure of how close we really have to come or how much analysis can really make up for messing up rules.


This. I often can't tell the 60s from the 65s on baressays.com. Sometimes I can't even tell between the 55s and 65s. This is by far the most terrifying part about the exam, just having absolutely no idea what a passing essay looks like versus a failing one. A couple people around here have said stuff like, "just make a good faith effort, it'll be alright, bro!" but I'm not at all convinced that's the case for CA based on what I see on baressays.com.


Yeah, what I said about the good faith effort thing earlier likely does not apply to Cali (I'm in TX). I feel for you guys, because I've read about how people have tried to sue the Cali bar because their essay grading was arbitrary. Still rooting for you guys.

kyle010723
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby kyle010723 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:24 am

One last day of studying guys, We can, and we will do this!

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rinkrat19
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby rinkrat19 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:32 am

kyle010723 wrote:One last day of studying guys, We can, and we will do this!

Speak for yourself. Monday is my day for reading all the sample state essays I haven't gotten to yet. I won't be taking the day off.

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brotherdarkness
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby brotherdarkness » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:39 am

rinkrat19 wrote:
kyle010723 wrote:One last day of studying guys, We can, and we will do this!

Speak for yourself. Monday is my day for reading all the sample state essays I haven't gotten to yet. I won't be taking the day off.


I'll be reading essays Monday, as well. I figure it's the best way to keep the material fresh.

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RaleighStClair
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby RaleighStClair » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:44 am

brotherdarkness wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
kyle010723 wrote:One last day of studying guys, We can, and we will do this!

Speak for yourself. Monday is my day for reading all the sample state essays I haven't gotten to yet. I won't be taking the day off.


I'll be reading essays Monday, as well. I figure it's the best way to keep the material fresh.


+1

I don't want to burn out, so I'm going to be doing it pretty passively, like while watching TV or something. But for trusts and corps...I gotta keep that stuff fresh in my brain or it will be gone.

kyle010723
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby kyle010723 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:45 am

RaleighStClair wrote:
brotherdarkness wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
kyle010723 wrote:One last day of studying guys, We can, and we will do this!

Speak for yourself. Monday is my day for reading all the sample state essays I haven't gotten to yet. I won't be taking the day off.


I'll be reading essays Monday, as well. I figure it's the best way to keep the material fresh.


+1

I don't want to burn out, so I'm going to be doing it pretty passively, like while watching TV or something. But for trusts and corps...I gotta keep that stuff fresh in my brain or it will be gone.


Eh, it probably wouldn't be safe for me to read essays and drive at the same time. Lol

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RaleighStClair
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby RaleighStClair » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:47 am

kyle010723 wrote:
Good Guy Gaud wrote:
kyle010723 wrote:Found this online for what a real "top" answer looked like from Feb 2015. Much more realistic than Barbri's perfect answer I guess.

https://courts.arkansas.gov/sites/defau ... 202015.pdf



Seems doable (assuming i have any clue as to what the question is asking lol)


Yea, the MEE questions for the most part seemed ok. One secured transaction and one wills. Those two I guess I'll have to make stuff up. But the answer didn't perfectly recite rules either and missed several elements.

Though I'm sure every state is different, those answers seemed way beyond word limits and way longer than what I can put down in 30 min. (Or 9 pages for MPT!?)


That torts/agency question was definitely doable. I'm surprised that was a "top" answer...knock on wood.

But damn, that first MPT...nope.

jamescastle
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby jamescastle » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:59 am

rinkrat19 wrote:
kyle010723 wrote:One last day of studying guys, We can, and we will do this!

Speak for yourself. Monday is my day for reading all the sample state essays I haven't gotten to yet. I won't be taking the day off.

Monday is reading state procedure and evidence since that's what the Texas Tuesday test is for (and the MPT). Reading through all the P&E things I haven't got to yet.

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gmail
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby gmail » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:03 am

CriticalPass cards are effing useless on torts.

Kage3212
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Kage3212 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:26 am

Any helpful ways to keep Equal Protection, Privileges and Immunities, Dormant CC, and Substantive Due Process Analyses straight?

Looking for easy to recognize fact patterns that will make it immediately apparent what should be used where. I know these things generally, but just curious if anyone has found anything particularly helpful in thinking about these tests.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:44 am

Kage3212 wrote:Any helpful ways to keep Equal Protection, Privileges and Immunities, Dormant CC, and Substantive Due Process Analyses straight?

Looking for easy to recognize fact patterns that will make it immediately apparent what should be used where. I know these things generally, but just curious if anyone has found anything particularly helpful in thinking about these tests.

Discriminating against out of staters? P&I

State Burdening Interstate Commerce? DCC

Treating Similarly Situated Citizens Differently? EQP

Being dicks? Substantive Due process

redblueyellow
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby redblueyellow » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:48 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Kage3212 wrote:Any helpful ways to keep Equal Protection, Privileges and Immunities, Dormant CC, and Substantive Due Process Analyses straight?

Looking for easy to recognize fact patterns that will make it immediately apparent what should be used where. I know these things generally, but just curious if anyone has found anything particularly helpful in thinking about these tests.

Discriminating against out of staters? P&I Doesn't this also apply to under DCC if economic?

State Burdening Interstate Commerce? DCC

Treating Similarly Situated Citizens Differently? EQP

Being dicks? Substantive Due process

redblueyellow
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby redblueyellow » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:48 am

gmail wrote:CriticalPass cards are effing useless on torts.


Wait, why? I've been using them exclusively almost...

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brotherdarkness
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby brotherdarkness » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:50 am

Kage3212 wrote:Any helpful ways to keep Equal Protection, Privileges and Immunities, Dormant CC, and Substantive Due Process Analyses straight?

Looking for easy to recognize fact patterns that will make it immediately apparent what should be used where. I know these things generally, but just curious if anyone has found anything particularly helpful in thinking about these tests.


I think I wrote this somewhere else, but I find it easiest to just ask what the state is doing:

Discriminating against some group of people? Equal protection (look for facts where they discriminate based on some characteristic -- this keys up equal protection arguments and the various levels of scrutiny that depend upon what characteristic the state is basing its discrimination on)

Discriminating against out of staters? Privileges and immunities (note that they might try to trick you with a residency requirement which may seem to be a P&I issue, but for purposes of the Bar this is equal protection because they're not discriminating against out of staters, but rather against a group of in staters -- those who have been residents for less than some amount of time) (also remember that corporations cannot use P&I, so if a state is discriminating against an out of state business, use the dormant commerce clause -- discussed below)

Interfering with interstate commerce? Dormant commerce clause (look for facts where they are trying to give in state businesses an advantage over out of state businesses, but keep the market participant exception in mind)

Interfering with a fundamental right? Substantive due process (there's a mnemonic to remember the various fundamental rights, but I can't remember that damn mnemonic right now -- things like privacy, marriage, private education, etc)

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rinkrat19
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby rinkrat19 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:53 am

I took one of the OPEs (#4) tonight and scored modestly above average overall (of course, it doesn't include CivPro). Better than I thought I was doing, although not the miracle kickass MBE score I need to compensate for my essays. But I think I made up a little bit of ground in the last day and a half and I'm slightly less resigned to failing than I was last night at this time.

lol, that's my sad excuse for a positive post. :P

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:56 am

redblueyellow wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
Kage3212 wrote:Any helpful ways to keep Equal Protection, Privileges and Immunities, Dormant CC, and Substantive Due Process Analyses straight?

Looking for easy to recognize fact patterns that will make it immediately apparent what should be used where. I know these things generally, but just curious if anyone has found anything particularly helpful in thinking about these tests.

Discriminating against out of staters? P&I Doesn't this also apply to under DCC if economic?

State Burdening Interstate Commerce? DCC

Treating Similarly Situated Citizens Differently? EQP

Being dicks? Substantive Due process

Yes unless there is Congressional approval or it falls under the market participant exception

Kage3212
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Kage3212 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:56 am

brotherdarkness wrote:
Kage3212 wrote:Any helpful ways to keep Equal Protection, Privileges and Immunities, Dormant CC, and Substantive Due Process Analyses straight?

Looking for easy to recognize fact patterns that will make it immediately apparent what should be used where. I know these things generally, but just curious if anyone has found anything particularly helpful in thinking about these tests.


I think I wrote this somewhere else, but I find it easiest to just ask what the state is doing:

Discriminating against some group of people? Equal protection (look for facts where they discriminate based on some characteristic -- this keys up equal protection arguments and the various levels of scrutiny that depend upon what characteristic the state is basing its discrimination on)

Discriminating against out of staters? Privileges and immunities (note that they might try to trick you with a residency requirement which may seem to be a P&I issue, but for purposes of the Bar this is equal protection because they're not discriminating against out of staters, but rather against a group of in staters -- those who have been residents for less than some amount of time) (also remember that corporations cannot use P&I, so if a state is discriminating against an out of state business, use the dormant commerce clause -- discussed below)

Interfering with interstate commerce? Dormant commerce clause (look for facts where they are trying to give in state businesses an advantage over out of state businesses, but keep the market participant exception in mind)

Interfering with a fundamental right? Substantive due process (there's a mnemonic to remember the various fundamental rights, but I can't remember that damn mnemonic right now -- things like privacy, marriage, private education, etc)


Awesome, thanks a ton.

redblueyellow
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby redblueyellow » Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:01 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
redblueyellow wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
Kage3212 wrote:Any helpful ways to keep Equal Protection, Privileges and Immunities, Dormant CC, and Substantive Due Process Analyses straight?

Looking for easy to recognize fact patterns that will make it immediately apparent what should be used where. I know these things generally, but just curious if anyone has found anything particularly helpful in thinking about these tests.

Discriminating against out of staters? P&I Doesn't this also apply to under DCC if economic?

State Burdening Interstate Commerce? DCC

Treating Similarly Situated Citizens Differently? EQP

Being dicks? Substantive Due process

Yes unless there is Congressional approval or it falls under the market participant exception


Does that mean by default we'd have to write DCC and P&I? I guess you can skip P&I as to corps, but what if it's out of state people trying to drive through the state for any purpose (business or leisure), but have to pay an additional toll when entering solely because they're from out of state (in-staters can go in and out of the state with no penalty, or at least, a significantly smaller one)?

At that point, does it cease to become a P&I issue and solely a commerce clause/DCC thing?

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brotherdarkness
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby brotherdarkness » Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:02 am

In that hypo I would argue both. P&I seems obvious, and I'd do DCC by arguing cumulative economic effect of all these drivers results in substantial interference with interstate commerce.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:05 am

redblueyellow wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
redblueyellow wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
Kage3212 wrote:Any helpful ways to keep Equal Protection, Privileges and Immunities, Dormant CC, and Substantive Due Process Analyses straight?

Looking for easy to recognize fact patterns that will make it immediately apparent what should be used where. I know these things generally, but just curious if anyone has found anything particularly helpful in thinking about these tests.

Discriminating against out of staters? P&I Doesn't this also apply to under DCC if economic?

State Burdening Interstate Commerce? DCC

Treating Similarly Situated Citizens Differently? EQP

Being dicks? Substantive Due process

Yes unless there is Congressional approval or it falls under the market participant exception


Does that mean by default we'd have to write DCC and P&I? I guess you can skip P&I as to corps, but what if it's out of state people trying to drive through the state for any purpose (business or leisure), but have to pay an additional toll when entering solely because they're from out of state (in-staters can go in and out of the state with no penalty, or at least, a significantly smaller one)?

At that point, does it cease to become a P&I issue and solely a commerce clause/DCC thing?

No it would be both, and you'd have to write about both on an essay. But in that case both DCC and P&I require that it be necessary to achieve an important government purpose, so the standard is the same.

If it does not discriminate against out of staters you just look at whether the benefits outweigh the burdens to see if it passes DCC muster. P&I would not come in to play.

jamescastle
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby jamescastle » Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:12 am

brotherdarkness wrote:
Kage3212 wrote:Any helpful ways to keep Equal Protection, Privileges and Immunities, Dormant CC, and Substantive Due Process Analyses straight?

Looking for easy to recognize fact patterns that will make it immediately apparent what should be used where. I know these things generally, but just curious if anyone has found anything particularly helpful in thinking about these tests.


I think I wrote this somewhere else, but I find it easiest to just ask what the state is doing:

Discriminating against some group of people? Equal protection (look for facts where they discriminate based on some characteristic -- this keys up equal protection arguments and the various levels of scrutiny that depend upon what characteristic the state is basing its discrimination on)

Discriminating against out of staters? Privileges and immunities (note that they might try to trick you with a residency requirement which may seem to be a P&I issue, but for purposes of the Bar this is equal protection because they're not discriminating against out of staters, but rather against a group of in staters -- those who have been residents for less than some amount of time) (also remember that corporations cannot use P&I, so if a state is discriminating against an out of state business, use the dormant commerce clause -- discussed below)

Interfering with interstate commerce? Dormant commerce clause (look for facts where they are trying to give in state businesses an advantage over out of state businesses, but keep the market participant exception in mind)

Interfering with a fundamental right? Substantive due process (there's a mnemonic to remember the various fundamental rights, but I can't remember that damn mnemonic right now -- things like privacy, marriage, private education, etc)

This goes along with the last page of Chemerinsky's handout which I would suggest op also look at. Really, just if you're having constitutional law issues, check out all the tables and charts in his handout. They're all useful.

jamescastle
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby jamescastle » Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:14 am

Since it's Sunday for everyone in this thread now:
There will be days this calendar week in which we will not be studying for the bar exam.

So so so so ready for this to be over.

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Good Guy Gaud
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Good Guy Gaud » Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:15 am

jamescastle wrote:Since it's Sunday for everyone in this thread now:
There will be days this calendar week in which we will not be studying for the bar exam.

So so so so ready for this to be over.


I appreciate the reminder. It's actually hard to believe.




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