BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

dwyf
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby dwyf » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:22 pm

How did people do AM vs PM? I went 50/100 AM, 70/100 PM. I haven't gotten to the lectures/handouts on property or conlaw yet, so it may be that they were unevenly dispersed and that's why morning was so much worse for me. Or maybe I hadn't woken up. Or maybe it was just harder.

I finished with a half hour or so on both sections. I'm going to stick with my pace - I figured test day will slow down a bit, but I also don't know how much I gain from going back to q's - with this much material, I generally either know the rule and move on or I don't.

dwyf
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby dwyf » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:24 pm

plurilingue wrote:I haven't studied that much this summer (a few hours a day, five days a week; started a few weeks late; only done 25% of the class so far) and got 120/200 on the simulated MBE. I've listened to all the MBE lectures at 2x speed and filled out the handouts (except Torts, for which there wasn't any ugh), but I haven't done much state-related stuff. (Just NY Practice and a bit of Corps/Trusts.) Needless to say, I haven't done any essays yet. Should I move on from the MBE (after reviewing what I got wrong) b/c this score is good to go, or should I continue dedicating 50% of my time to the MBE and the rest to state stuff? I never took any other bar-related classes (Evidence, Trusts/Estates/Wills, etc.), but I did graduate CCN approx top 10-20%, had a high LSAT, etc. Any advice appreciated.


This is eerily similar to my situation, and I got the same score. Scary.

I'd be curious to hear suggestions on this as well.

dwyf
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby dwyf » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:25 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:What is the target MBE score for the simulated?


From Barbri email on June 26:
"Your results will indicate how you ranked nationally against other BARBRI students taking the exam. The average score on this exam ranges between 110-115 out of 200 questions. Our research at BARBRI shows that most students improve their raw score anywhere from 15-20 points between the time of the Simulated MBE and the bar exam."

Kage3212
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Kage3212 » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:30 pm

Maybe this has been discussed to death, but curious how everyone begins writing your essays. Do you outline on your computer as you read? Or rather on scratch paper? Do you write out the rules you know you will need to apply as you read through the problem (or wait until the end after you have everything floating around in your head)? Finally, when do you "need" to begin writing by do you think to give yourself sufficient time to construct a passing response.

Pretty general/vague questions but curious how everyone has been approaching.

dwyf
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby dwyf » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:43 pm

cdelgado wrote:156/200. Not sure how that stacks up, but I'll await the percentages tonight.


Are the percentages actually going up tonight? That'd be nice.

plurilingue
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby plurilingue » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:44 pm

dwyf wrote:
plurilingue wrote:I haven't studied that much this summer (a few hours a day, five days a week; started a few weeks late; only done 25% of the class so far) and got 120/200 on the simulated MBE. I've listened to all the MBE lectures at 2x speed and filled out the handouts (except Torts, for which there wasn't any ugh), but I haven't done much state-related stuff. (Just NY Practice and a bit of Corps/Trusts.) Needless to say, I haven't done any essays yet. Should I move on from the MBE (after reviewing what I got wrong) b/c this score is good to go, or should I continue dedicating 50% of my time to the MBE and the rest to state stuff? I never took any other bar-related classes (Evidence, Trusts/Estates/Wills, etc.), but I did graduate CCN approx top 10-20%, had a high LSAT, etc. Any advice appreciated.


This is eerily similar to my situation, and I got the same score. Scary.

I'd be curious to hear suggestions on this as well.


The problem with Barbri is that it isn't made for kids who do well in law school; it's made to help people who are at high risk of failure, and to save them by forcing them to do way more than necessary. If I actually only marked as complete the things I did (and not the review this/preview that, which I never, ever do), I'd probably be at 15% or less right now.

I don't think we're the ones who are at a particularly high risk of failing; on the contrary, when you first log on to Barbri, they ask for your LSAT and law school GPA (within a band) for informational purposes. Very likely, their internal data would reveal that the failure rate for our bands at CCN (170+/3.5+) is essentially zero. Simply put, I'm not going to kill myself to get the finer points of this material. Frankly, I'm completely burnt out from law school and am doing the bare minimum required to pass this exam — there is no incremental benefit to getting a higher score — all the while not being totally reckless in getting to close to the fail line. This has worked before: I studied less than 3 hours for the MPRE without having taken PR by reading an outline and doing and reviewing a practice test very carefully, and scored above the median. I would wager this is true of most kids doing well at a top-ranked school.

I agree that it's probably time to move on to the New York day material, especially since I know nothing about the subjects or how to write an NY essay. And with the MBE, I'm going over all my mistakes very carefully (on the overwhelming majority of wrong answers, I had narrowed down to TCR and the one I picked) and focusing on areas where I missed a lot of questions. I'm just going to assume that the correct answers don't fall out of my head. Instead of reading outlines, I've done 800 practice questions on the app and I have a ~63% average — strikingly close to my actual simulated MBE result.

Also, percentile ranks went up for me overnight (I took the simulated MBE yesterday) because over 5,000 people have already submitted and I believe I am in the 55th percentile with 120 correct. I think the percentile rank will actually go up since the people who are taking the simulated MBE are keeping pace, and there are undoubtedly people destined for the bottom of the curve who aren't anywhere close to ready to take it.
Last edited by plurilingue on Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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charlesxavier
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby charlesxavier » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:48 pm

dwyf wrote:How did people do AM vs PM? I went 50/100 AM, 70/100 PM. I haven't gotten to the lectures/handouts on property or conlaw yet, so it may be that they were unevenly dispersed and that's why morning was so much worse for me. Or maybe I hadn't woken up. Or maybe it was just harder.

I finished with a half hour or so on both sections. I'm going to stick with my pace - I figured test day will slow down a bit, but I also don't know how much I gain from going back to q's - with this much material, I generally either know the rule and move on or I don't.


71 (36/50 and 35/50) and then 61 (28/50 and 33/50). I missed 7 out of the first 10 on the PM--was getting nervous.

antlp
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby antlp » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:48 pm

Kage3212 wrote:Maybe this has been discussed to death, but curious how everyone begins writing your essays. Do you outline on your computer as you read? Or rather on scratch paper? Do you write out the rules you know you will need to apply as you read through the problem (or wait until the end after you have everything floating around in your head)? Finally, when do you "need" to begin writing by do you think to give yourself sufficient time to construct a passing response.

Pretty general/vague questions but curious how everyone has been approaching.


I start by first reading the questions at the bottom to "prime" myself, and then I read the facts.

Then I type out the subheadings corresponding to the questions onto my computer, e.g.:
1) Validity of the contract
2a) Interest
2b) Waiver of Warranty of Merchantability
3) X's Personal Liability on the Contract).

Then for each subheading, I generally type out the issues and appropriate rules first. I do it first because I like to have a continued period of "recall mode" where I'm just trying to regurgitate rules from memory. Plus I'm worried I won't get to it later or that I might be so tired I'll forget the rules. If I know the conclusion off the top of my head without thinking too much about it I type that out too.

Then I go back in and fill in the application section for each of the rules I've just word-vomited. I don't do it in order necessarily. I'll usually start with the stuff I KNOW for sure I can do, so it's a confidence boost and so I can make sure I get it down before I run out of time. I always end each subheading with stating the conclusion again.

dwyf
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby dwyf » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:55 pm

plurilingue wrote:
dwyf wrote:
plurilingue wrote:I haven't studied that much this summer (a few hours a day, five days a week; started a few weeks late; only done 25% of the class so far) and got 120/200 on the simulated MBE. I've listened to all the MBE lectures at 2x speed and filled out the handouts (except Torts, for which there wasn't any ugh), but I haven't done much state-related stuff. (Just NY Practice and a bit of Corps/Trusts.) Needless to say, I haven't done any essays yet. Should I move on from the MBE (after reviewing what I got wrong) b/c this score is good to go, or should I continue dedicating 50% of my time to the MBE and the rest to state stuff? I never took any other bar-related classes (Evidence, Trusts/Estates/Wills, etc.), but I did graduate CCN approx top 10-20%, had a high LSAT, etc. Any advice appreciated.


This is eerily similar to my situation, and I got the same score. Scary.

I'd be curious to hear suggestions on this as well.


The problem with Barbri is that it isn't made for kids who do well in law school; it's made to help people who are at high risk of failure, and to save them by forcing them to do way more than necessary. If I actually only marked as complete the things I did (and not the review this/preview that, which I never, ever do), I'd probably be at 15% or less right now.

I don't think we're the ones who are at a particularly high risk of failing; on the contrary, when you first log on to Barbri, they ask for your LSAT and law school GPA (within a band) for informational purposes. Very likely, their internal data would reveal that the failure rate for our bands at CCN (170+/3.5+) is essentially zero. Simply put, I'm not going to kill myself to get the finer points of this material. Frankly, I'm completely burnt out from law school and am doing the bare minimum required to pass this exam — there is no incremental benefit to getting a higher score — all the while not being totally reckless in getting to close to the fail line. This has worked before: I studied less than 3 hours for the MPRE without having taken PR by reading an outline and doing and reviewing a practice test very carefully, and scored above the median. I would wager this is true of most kids doing well at a top-ranked school.

I agree that it's probably time to move on to the New York day material, especially since I know nothing about the subjects or how to write an NY essay. And with the MBE, I'm going over all my mistakes very carefully (on the overwhelming majority of wrong answers, I had narrowed down to TCR and the one I picked) and focusing on areas where I missed a lot of questions. I'm just going to assume that the correct answers don't fall out of my head. Instead of reading outlines, I've done 800 practice questions on the app and I have a ~63% average — strikingly close to my actual simulated MBE result.

Also, percentile ranks went up for me overnight (I took the simulated MBE yesterday) because over 5,000 people have already submitted and I believe I am in the 55th percentile with 120 correct. I think the percentile rank will actually go up since the people who are taking the simulated MBE are keeping pace, and there are undoubtedly people destined for the bottom of the curve who aren't anywhere close to ready to take it.


Really interesting. Agreed on all fronts - I've had a terribly hard time getting excited about doing the work.

I hadn't taken an LSAT prep course, and am finding the level of detail in some of the lectures to be maddening (particularly the MBE review style lectures or the test strategy things - I'm now skipping all of it).

In a perverse way I was hoping to bomb the simulated MBE in order to get myself motivated, but I ended up with a perfectly middling score on a test that's pass/fail.

I'm going to try to crush the rest of property and conlaw lectures today/tomorrow, then move on to NY for good.

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3|ink
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby 3|ink » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:02 pm

Just watched the contracts review lecture. It was pretty good.

AReasonableMan
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby AReasonableMan » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:28 pm

I saw at least 5-6 of the questions before and had only done 400. 138 sounds good but I am way behind, have an awful memory (way below the average person - need to write out grocery lists for 3-4 items and spend hours learning names) so am banking on a good MBE.

My score jumped way up since last weekend, because the Barbri materials test the same 25-30 fact patterns over and over. There are also patterns in the choices where uncharacteristically long/short choices are generally the right choice. Can't game the bar because I don't have bar q's so subconscoously figuring out how barbri writes the q's and getting q's where I don't know what law is even in play is counterproductive. I feel like I need to start swapping materials with Themis people.
Last edited by AReasonableMan on Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:31 pm

Someone in my row at Javits today self-graded the first half of the simulated MBE at the lunch break and he got 28/100. Someone above said barbri is for people who are struggling--I think that is incorrect. The course is super expensive and yeah, there are some struggling people taking it, but also tons of people with big law who have the firm paying. I think anyone doing median should be comfortable, although I have to admit I'm a little jelly of the people in this thread posting that they got 85+% correct.

AReasonableMan
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby AReasonableMan » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:33 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Someone in my row at Javits today self-graded the first half of the simulated MBE at the lunch break and he got 28/100. Someone above said barbri is for people who are struggling--I think that is incorrect. The course is super expensive and yeah, there are some struggling people taking it, but also tons of people with big law who have the firm paying. I think anyone doing median should be comfortable, although I have to admit I'm a little jelly of the people in this thread posting that they got 85+% correct.

anyone who got 85 percent correct is brilliant.

murray18
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby murray18 » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:41 pm

So now that we have reached crunch time, how are you guys changing your study schedule? I took Saturdays off in June, so I plan on cutting that out, but I'm not sure if that's enough.

plurilingue
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby plurilingue » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:43 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Someone in my row at Javits today self-graded the first half of the simulated MBE at the lunch break and he got 28/100. Someone above said barbri is for people who are struggling--I think that is incorrect. The course is super expensive and yeah, there are some struggling people taking it, but also tons of people with big law who have the firm paying. I think anyone doing median should be comfortable, although I have to admit I'm a little jelly of the people in this thread posting that they got 85+% correct.


Perhaps I wasn't clear: the program is designed to help people who are at the highest risk of failing and push them above the threshold so the company can advertise elevated pass rates. It's really up to you based on your aptitude to correct for the overkill built into the program when determining how much prep you have to do.

Also, 10% of all c/o 2015 law students had a Summer Associate position last summer:
"Summer programs in 2014 employed less than 4,500 students, according to a survey of 388 law firm offices by the National Association for Law Placement, an organization that tracks legal employment. That class came from the roughly 45,500 students who enrolled in nationally accredited law schools in 2012. Of course, many students have no interest in working at large law firms, opting instead for jobs in the public sector, at not-for-profits, or at smaller firms."
http://www.wsj.com/articles/for-summer- ... 1436229949

Even assuming that all 4,500 former SAs are taking Barbri — clearly false given how some law firms don't direct bill but rather disburse directly to students so they can pick, thereby incentivizing enrolling in a lower-priced bar course — that still wouldn't be more than ~20% of all students currently enrolled in the program. (In reality, it's more like 10% or less.) My StudySmart MBE currently tells me that at least 19,000 students have answered a Torts MBE practice question online so far. There's a lot of people out there who are paying for this themselves — the overwhelming majority for sure.

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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:44 pm

plurilingue wrote:I don't think we're the ones who are at a particularly high risk of failing; on the contrary, when you first log on to Barbri, they ask for your LSAT and law school GPA (within a band) for informational purposes. Very likely, their internal data would reveal that the failure rate for our bands at CCN (170+/3.5+) is essentially zero.

I'd like to believe this but I look at past performance on the CA bar and see CCN pass ratesin the 75-85% range year after year. Which I suppose is good motivation.

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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby RaleighStClair » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:47 pm

murray18 wrote:So now that we have reached crunch time, how are you guys changing your study schedule? I took Saturdays off in June, so I plan on cutting that out, but I'm not sure if that's enough.


I haven't really made a set plan, but I'm going to progressively start waking up earlier (I've been regularly waking up at 10am and going to bed at 1am-ish), and from here out I won't be taking any more extended breaks to hang with friends/booze/lounge around. My personal time is going to be pretty much limited to 30 minutes in the morning, hour or so of working out, and an hour or so before bed (not including meals of course). 3 weeks of that should be okay.

Going to split up my days about half and half (mornings-early pm MEE subjects and afternoon-evening for MBE questions and flashcards). Not really sure what else to do. People say we should be forgetting about the MBE right now and focusing on state subjects, but I'm in a pure UBE state so crushing the MBE is pretty crucial.

plurilingue
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby plurilingue » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:52 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
plurilingue wrote:I don't think we're the ones who are at a particularly high risk of failing; on the contrary, when you first log on to Barbri, they ask for your LSAT and law school GPA (within a band) for informational purposes. Very likely, their internal data would reveal that the failure rate for our bands at CCN (170+/3.5+) is essentially zero.

I'd like to believe this but I look at past performance on the CA bar and see CCN pass ratesin the 75-85% range year after year. Which I suppose is good motivation.


3.5+ was a reference to law school GPA, which is roughly top 1/3 to 1/4 or so. I think the failure rate for CCN kids in the top 1/3 or higher is vanishingly thin. I would wager that substantially all the students who fail the bar at a top school fall in the bottom 1/3 of the class, excepting those who didn't study until the very last minute and couldn't quite cram it all in. I believe a study was done a while ago that showed a strong correlation between law school grades (dividing the class by thirds) and likelihood of bar passage, but I don't quite have the time to dig it up right now...

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Danger Zone
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Danger Zone » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:59 pm

plurilingue wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
plurilingue wrote:I don't think we're the ones who are at a particularly high risk of failing; on the contrary, when you first log on to Barbri, they ask for your LSAT and law school GPA (within a band) for informational purposes. Very likely, their internal data would reveal that the failure rate for our bands at CCN (170+/3.5+) is essentially zero.

I'd like to believe this but I look at past performance on the CA bar and see CCN pass ratesin the 75-85% range year after year. Which I suppose is good motivation.


3.5+ was a reference to law school GPA, which is roughly top 1/3 to 1/4 or so. I think the failure rate for CCN kids in the top 1/3 or higher is vanishingly thin. I would wager that substantially all the students who fail the bar at a top school fall in the bottom 1/3 of the class, excepting those who didn't study until the very last minute and couldn't quite cram it all in. I believe a study was done a while ago that showed a strong correlation between law school grades (dividing the class by thirds) and likelihood of bar passage, but I don't quite have the time to dig it up right now...

I'm gonna come right out and say it

You sound like a douche

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:01 pm

plurilingue wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
plurilingue wrote:I don't think we're the ones who are at a particularly high risk of failing; on the contrary, when you first log on to Barbri, they ask for your LSAT and law school GPA (within a band) for informational purposes. Very likely, their internal data would reveal that the failure rate for our bands at CCN (170+/3.5+) is essentially zero.

I'd like to believe this but I look at past performance on the CA bar and see CCN pass ratesin the 75-85% range year after year. Which I suppose is good motivation.


3.5+ was a reference to law school GPA, which is roughly top 1/3 to 1/4 or so. I think he failure rate for CCN kids in the top 1/3 or higher is vanishingly thin. I would wager that substantially all the students who fail the bar at a top school fall in the bottom 1/3 of the class, excepting those who didn't study until the very last minute and couldn't quite cram it all in. I believe a study was done a while ago that showed a strong correlation between law school grades (dividing the class by thirds) and likelihood of bar passage, but I don't quite have the time to dig it up right now...

This is almost guaranteed to be true. Although CCN are amazing law schools there are people graduating at the bottom of the class who don't understand the difference between federal/state or who cannot list the requirements for a contract or the elements of negligence.

murray18
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby murray18 » Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:01 pm

RaleighStClair wrote:
murray18 wrote:So now that we have reached crunch time, how are you guys changing your study schedule? I took Saturdays off in June, so I plan on cutting that out, but I'm not sure if that's enough.


I haven't really made a set plan, but I'm going to progressively start waking up earlier (I've been regularly waking up at 10am and going to bed at 1am-ish), and from here out I won't be taking any more extended breaks to hang with friends/booze/lounge around. My personal time is going to be pretty much limited to 30 minutes in the morning, hour or so of working out, and an hour or so before bed (not including meals of course). 3 weeks of that should be okay.

Going to split up my days about half and half (mornings-early pm MEE subjects and afternoon-evening for MBE questions and flashcards). Not really sure what else to do. People say we should be forgetting about the MBE right now and focusing on state subjects, but I'm in a pure UBE state so crushing the MBE is pretty crucial.


That sounds reasonable. I'm also in a pure UBE state, so I'm going to keep grinding on the MBE subjects. Looking forward on the PSP, it looks like Barbri gave us a decent schedule as far as splitting up MBE and MEE subjects, so I guess I'll use that as a guide.

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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Barbro » Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:04 pm

3|ink wrote:125/200

Fuck


That's almost 70th percentile, it's a pass fail exam.

dwyf
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby dwyf » Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:24 pm


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Good Guy Gaud
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Good Guy Gaud » Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:25 pm

dwyf wrote:http://abovethelaw.com/2013/09/whats-the-best-predictor-of-bar-exam-success-its-not-the-lsat/


maybe give us a summary?

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:31 pm

Good Guy Gaud wrote:
dwyf wrote:http://abovethelaw.com/2013/09/whats-the-best-predictor-of-bar-exam-success-its-not-the-lsat/


maybe give us a summary?


Law school gpa is the best predictor of bar success.




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