BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Poopface
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Poopface » Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:27 pm

RaleighStClair wrote:I know we're all in a similar position, and I'm assuming most of us are taking this for the first time, but I was wondering if you all have any theories or plans to prepare for the essay questions. I'm mainly referring to the MEE - as I'm in a UBE state.

My scores on MBE questions are pretty good; certainly passable, and I'm realistically hoping for a 145-150 on game day, scaled. But the essays that I've done so far (which is the first two for each of the subject covered so far - i.e., all that BarBri has assigned me) have been HORRIBLE. Like, I would be lucky if I got a 120 on those (scaled to MBE score). And this even goes sometimes for when I do one open book. I think my main problem, which is probably pretty predictable, is that when I see a question on the MBE, I know what the answer is, but it's hard for me to explain exactly why until I see the answer choices. This is a huge problem for essays, seeing as you have to be able to identify a rule, but also all the sub parts of the rule, and defenses, etc. This sounds stupid, and like I've never taken a law school exam before, but I don't know what else to do.

I don't know. Just hoping for a strong enough score on the MBE to outweigh my essays. Thank God for a 50% MBE weight in my state, and the 20% MPT, but I don't know if it'll even be enough with where I'm at right now on essays.


yooo i feel the exact same way re: MBE answers and worrying about not being able to have explained an answer in writing had the MBE Q been an essay Q instead, and it freaks me out. I crush the mbe shit, but I'm really worried about the essays. hopefully its normal at this stage. Im taking CA bar too which sucks bc mbe is only 35% and they have 2 fuckin days of writing bullshit

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rickgrimes69
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby rickgrimes69 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:47 pm

charlesxavier wrote:
Neff wrote:
3|ink wrote:If I could turn back time, I would outline every single MBE class (except civil procedure) from the CMR. Basically every other lecture glossed over way too much. The videos were not worth my time to watch.


I think knowing the CMR prepares you very well for Barbri's own questions, but not necessarily for the real MBE. I'm still not sure to what extent the CMR/AMP rules are covered on the real thing, or if a lot of is just overkill. My biggest gripe with Barbri is how its unrealistic difficulty scares you into overstudying too many obscure rules (or worse, the wrong rules). For example, the Emanuel questions feel really different from Barbri: the way they are written, what they test, and the nature of the explanations (i.e. Emanuel Qs' explanations are heavily based on Restatements, which means a dose of common sense seems to get you a lot farther than Barbri randomly pulling wtf rules out of its ass).

But at the end of the day, we gotta keep in mind that the bar is not a law school exam. A lot of us feel like we may be struggling because we're not in "A" territory since we're so used to LS. But this is a test of minimal competency and I think what is passing is way lower than most of us think it is.


From everything I've read/heard it seems like the barbri lectures are enough to help you pass. I think they're based on the most tested topics. Sure, you might miss a question here or there that you could have learned from the CMR but you are also responsible for learning significantly less material.


I just don't see how this can be the case. Nearly every single lecture handout has been utterly inadequate for answering the MPQ/Studysmart questions. Even the workshops and assessments tend to have a few questions which weren't covered in the lecture. I know that Barbri's questions are more difficult than the ones we'll see on the real thing, but there are several topics (torts anyone?) for which I've just abandoned my lecture notes and resorted to using the CMR exclusively. Even the graded crim essay we did today for NY required several pieces of knowledge which weren't included in our lecture notes.

So are the lectures inadequate, or are the questions just really really unrealistically difficult? Got to be one or the other.

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RaleighStClair
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby RaleighStClair » Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:50 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
I just don't see how this can be the case. Nearly every single lecture handout has been utterly inadequate for answering the MPQ/Studysmart questions. Even the workshops and assessments tend to have a few questions which weren't covered in the lecture. I know that Barbri's questions are more difficult than the ones we'll see on the real thing, but there are several topics (torts anyone?) for which I've just abandoned my lecture notes and resorted to using the CMR exclusively. Even the graded crim essay we did today for NY required several pieces of knowledge which weren't included in our lecture notes.

So are the lectures inadequate, or are the questions just really really unrealistically difficult? Got to be one or the other.


On torts, YES. For sure. The CMR is the bare minimum of what we need. The lectures were a complete waste of time. The rest of my notes so far seem to be pretty adequate though.

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charlesxavier
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby charlesxavier » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:11 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
charlesxavier wrote:
Neff wrote:
3|ink wrote:If I could turn back time, I would outline every single MBE class (except civil procedure) from the CMR. Basically every other lecture glossed over way too much. The videos were not worth my time to watch.


I think knowing the CMR prepares you very well for Barbri's own questions, but not necessarily for the real MBE. I'm still not sure to what extent the CMR/AMP rules are covered on the real thing, or if a lot of is just overkill. My biggest gripe with Barbri is how its unrealistic difficulty scares you into overstudying too many obscure rules (or worse, the wrong rules). For example, the Emanuel questions feel really different from Barbri: the way they are written, what they test, and the nature of the explanations (i.e. Emanuel Qs' explanations are heavily based on Restatements, which means a dose of common sense seems to get you a lot farther than Barbri randomly pulling wtf rules out of its ass).

But at the end of the day, we gotta keep in mind that the bar is not a law school exam. A lot of us feel like we may be struggling because we're not in "A" territory since we're so used to LS. But this is a test of minimal competency and I think what is passing is way lower than most of us think it is.


From everything I've read/heard it seems like the barbri lectures are enough to help you pass. I think they're based on the most tested topics. Sure, you might miss a question here or there that you could have learned from the CMR but you are also responsible for learning significantly less material.


I just don't see how this can be the case. Nearly every single lecture handout has been utterly inadequate for answering the MPQ/Studysmart questions. Even the workshops and assessments tend to have a few questions which weren't covered in the lecture. I know that Barbri's questions are more difficult than the ones we'll see on the real thing, but there are several topics (torts anyone?) for which I've just abandoned my lecture notes and resorted to using the CMR exclusively. Even the graded crim essay we did today for NY required several pieces of knowledge which weren't included in our lecture notes.

So are the lectures inadequate, or are the questions just really really unrealistically difficult? Got to be one or the other.


I think most people have agreed that the MPQ questions are more difficult than the real MBE practice questions. Also, if it's of any help, it was announced that everyone at my school who hit the 75% mark on their PSP last year passed the bar. Barbri over prepares students and the one thing I've heard repeated is that their tactic is to make you feel like you're not doing well enough and are going to fail.

Outis Onoma
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Outis Onoma » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:19 pm

RaleighStClair wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
I just don't see how this can be the case. Nearly every single lecture handout has been utterly inadequate for answering the MPQ/Studysmart questions. Even the workshops and assessments tend to have a few questions which weren't covered in the lecture. I know that Barbri's questions are more difficult than the ones we'll see on the real thing, but there are several topics (torts anyone?) for which I've just abandoned my lecture notes and resorted to using the CMR exclusively. Even the graded crim essay we did today for NY required several pieces of knowledge which weren't included in our lecture notes.

So are the lectures inadequate, or are the questions just really really unrealistically difficult? Got to be one or the other.


On torts, YES. For sure. The CMR is the bare minimum of what we need. The lectures were a complete waste of time. The rest of my notes so far seem to be pretty adequate though.


Evidence too. I thought the lecture was pretty good for what he covered, but he tells us he doesn't do procedural considerations, presumptions ,judicial notice, or real evidence. Guess what the questions on MPQ 3 are based on? Procedural considerations, presumptions, judicial notice, real evidence...

atticus89
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby atticus89 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:38 pm

Keep in mind that the MPQ practice sets are giving you 108 questions for each subject. On the actual bar, each subject is only going to have 28-29 questions on it. This is why the Barbri MPQs seem so infuriating and specific sometimes -- it's because they are extremely specific.

For example, consider Evidence: On the actual bar exam they're going to have maybe 8 or so questions on hearsay. Most of those 8-9 questions are going to test the major hearsay issues and exceptions. But if each MPQ set had 6/18 questions on the same major hearsay issues over and over and over again, it wouldn't be very helpful. Barbri's strategy seems to be to help you learn the details of the questions (and practice MC test taking skills) by testing you on the minor details.

As you get deeper into the MPQ sets you thus start to get way more specific questions. For example, while in set 1 you were expected to recall that the business records exception is a hearsay exception, a question in set 5 might ask you a question getting at a specific element of the exception to reinforce your memory of the elements. Is it more likely that bar examiners, who only have 28-29 questions per subject to work with, are going to test on the minutia or on the big picture concepts?

The next logical question is, well why does Barbri test on the minutia. Answer here is that this isn't a real test. It's all a learning experience and memory techniques to help keep this info stored in your brain somewhere. If an issue has appeared in some form on a test in the past, Barbri is going to cover their asses and teach you the concept even if there's a 1% chance you see it on the actual bar.

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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby a male human » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:41 pm

victortsoi wrote:Really need some help with the essays here, I've put off really doing them after my graded essay, but want to start up again. How many do you guys suggest doing open book vs. closed book?
I feel like I usually "get" the answer, but leave out elements of the rule too much. Don't know the best targeted way to rectify this.

Mostly closed book. Hate to tell you this but it's July now. The point is to feel like shit now so you learn the parts you missed.

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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby myrtlewinston » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:55 pm

Last edited by myrtlewinston on Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

victortsoi
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby victortsoi » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:56 pm

a male human wrote:
victortsoi wrote:Really need some help with the essays here, I've put off really doing them after my graded essay, but want to start up again. How many do you guys suggest doing open book vs. closed book?
I feel like I usually "get" the answer, but leave out elements of the rule too much. Don't know the best targeted way to rectify this.

Mostly closed book. Hate to tell you this but it's July now. The point is to feel like shit now so you learn the parts you missed.



i understand that, i've been keeping up with the lectures, studying NY specific things, doing adaptibar....just behind on mpt and essays. I was wondering if it would do me any benefit to do even one or two open book.

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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby a male human » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:59 pm

victortsoi wrote:
a male human wrote:
victortsoi wrote:Really need some help with the essays here, I've put off really doing them after my graded essay, but want to start up again. How many do you guys suggest doing open book vs. closed book?
I feel like I usually "get" the answer, but leave out elements of the rule too much. Don't know the best targeted way to rectify this.

Mostly closed book. Hate to tell you this but it's July now. The point is to feel like shit now so you learn the parts you missed.



i understand that, i've been keeping up with the lectures, studying NY specific things, doing adaptibar....just behind on mpt and essays. I was wondering if it would do me any benefit to do even one or two open book.

Sure, I don't see the harm in that to get familiar with the subject since it's been a while since you put off essays.

victortsoi
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby victortsoi » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:08 pm

Another wrinkle in the way i've been studying, I do all the amps and read my outlines a few times, and some adaptibar before i hit the MPQs, and I tend to 3 or all 4 sets in one go, and then some adaptibar afterward. A downside is, while I feel the subjects I've studied I know comprehensively, I still have to do real property and con law. But should be done this week.

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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby AReasonableMan » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:17 pm

I keep on getting the same supplemental jurisdiction questions wrong, and the answer explanations aren't really explaining the rule --

In a case based on diversity jurisdiction where Citizen A from State A sues Citizen B from State B for >75k, and Citizen B from State B joins Citizen C from State B for a case arising from the same nucleus of fact, is joinder proper?

My understanding was because Citizen B would be the plaintiff against Citizen C in theory so the case is thrown out of federal court.... I'm assuming I'm wrong, but what's the rule?

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RaleighStClair
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby RaleighStClair » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:19 pm

Been taking a look at this chart of MEE subjects tested in the last few administrations: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2itdi8y50mm9 ... n.pdf?dl=0

Let's say, as a reasonable estimate, 60% of the tested essay subjects will be one of the 7 MBE subjects. That leaves 40% of the MEE, or approximately 12% of the entire exam, will be weighted on any of the non-MBE essay subjects. Of course this is only in a UBE jurisdiction.

For how much shit there is on corporations, secured transactions, wills, trusts, family law, partnerhips, etc., I am tempted to just get a very basic understanding of these, and hammer home MBE subjects/flashcards/practice essays for the next four weeks. There's so much to know, and too little time.

What do you all think?

/panic-rant
Last edited by RaleighStClair on Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Neff
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Neff » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:22 pm

Knowing the video lecture outlines will allow you to pass comfortably in every state, provided you know them well. They are not, however, designed for you to get an "A" by LS standards. If we treat the MBE as a pass/fail exam and throw out the law school "must gun for A" mentality, everything will be a lot easier.

Also, I just discovered you can inflate your StudySmart %correct/percentile scores if you keep doing the same problem set over and over again. Moral of the story: don't stress about your percentiles scores because they are skewed by cheaters like me. :-) :-)

victortsoi
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby victortsoi » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:26 pm

I am really stressing over the percentiles, the difference between barbri and adaptibar scores are just extraordinary for me at least.

Edit: even though I was the one who suggested the barbri group using studysmart might be a skewed group of acheivers.

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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby AReasonableMan » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:27 pm

Neff wrote:Knowing the video lecture outlines will allow you to pass comfortably in every state, provided you know them well. They are not, however, designed for you to get an "A" by LS standards. If we treat the MBE as a pass/fail exam and throw out the law school "must gun for A" mentality, everything will be a lot easier.

Also, I just discovered you can inflate your StudySmart %correct/percentile scores if you keep doing the same problem set over and over again. Moral of the story: don't stress about your percentiles scores because they are skewed by cheaters like me. :-) :-)

The first point assumes you get a very high percentage on questions right that are covered. If the lecture covers 75% of the material and you need ~65% to pass, assuming you get slightly more than guessing of the remaining 25% (let's say 30% of that 25%), you need to get 57/75 on the lecture questions. The questions are nitpicky and sometimes subjective enough (this is more useful for the plaintiff than that) that having the capacity to get an A on a law school response to the fact pattern can easily net 0 points on multiple choice.

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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby kykiske » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:31 pm

I honestly haven't even touched the MPT. I've been keeping up with the MBE and MEE schedules, and that's enough to drain me.

I've done every MBE question in Emmanuel's, and am now going over every MBE set in the Barbri book.

I'm so tempted to just wait until 2 weeks out and then skim over the MPT materials.

victortsoi
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby victortsoi » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:32 pm

AReasonableMan wrote:
Neff wrote:Knowing the video lecture outlines will allow you to pass comfortably in every state, provided you know them well. They are not, however, designed for you to get an "A" by LS standards. If we treat the MBE as a pass/fail exam and throw out the law school "must gun for A" mentality, everything will be a lot easier.

Also, I just discovered you can inflate your StudySmart %correct/percentile scores if you keep doing the same problem set over and over again. Moral of the story: don't stress about your percentiles scores because they are skewed by cheaters like me. :-) :-)

The first point assumes you get a very high percentage on questions right that are covered. If the lecture covers 75% of the material and you need ~65% to pass, assuming you get slightly more than guessing of the remaining 25% (let's say 30% of that 25%), you need to get 57/75 on the lecture questions. The questions are nitpicky and sometimes subjective enough (this is more useful for the plaintiff than that) that having the capacity to get an A on a law school response to the fact pattern can easily net 0 points on multiple choice.



so what have you been doing to rectify that deficiency in your study?

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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby musicfor18 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:35 pm

AReasonableMan wrote:I keep on getting the same supplemental jurisdiction questions wrong, and the answer explanations aren't really explaining the rule --

In a case based on diversity jurisdiction where Citizen A from State A sues Citizen B from State B for >75k, and Citizen B from State B joins Citizen C from State B for a case arising from the same nucleus of fact, is joinder proper?

My understanding was because Citizen B would be the plaintiff against Citizen C in theory so the case is thrown out of federal court.... I'm assuming I'm wrong, but what's the rule?


Yes, there is supplemental jurisdiction over that claim. The "no claims by plaintiffs" rule you're thinking of applies only to original plaintiffs, not third-party plaintiffs, etc.

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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby AReasonableMan » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:41 pm

musicfor18 wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:I keep on getting the same supplemental jurisdiction questions wrong, and the answer explanations aren't really explaining the rule --

In a case based on diversity jurisdiction where Citizen A from State A sues Citizen B from State B for >75k, and Citizen B from State B joins Citizen C from State B for a case arising from the same nucleus of fact, is joinder proper?

My understanding was because Citizen B would be the plaintiff against Citizen C in theory so the case is thrown out of federal court.... I'm assuming I'm wrong, but what's the rule?


Yes, there is supplemental jurisdiction over that claim. The "no claims by plaintiffs" rule you're thinking of applies only to original plaintiffs, not third-party plaintiffs, etc.

Thanks - So once B crossclaims to bring in C - A could also sue C in federal court because there's diversity b/w them, but if there was not diversity of citizenship then she would be unable to sue C in federal court?

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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby LawGuy321 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:46 pm

a male human wrote:
victortsoi wrote:Really need some help with the essays here, I've put off really doing them after my graded essay, but want to start up again. How many do you guys suggest doing open book vs. closed book?
I feel like I usually "get" the answer, but leave out elements of the rule too much. Don't know the best targeted way to rectify this.

Mostly closed book. Hate to tell you this but it's July now. The point is to feel like shit now so you learn the parts you missed.


Ummm... ::nervous breakdown breathing:: Can i just say... ::breathes erratically:: that unless you're in Tokyo... ::grabs armchair vigorously:: it's still JUNE...?!

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LawGuy321
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby LawGuy321 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:50 pm

musicfor18 wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:I keep on getting the same supplemental jurisdiction questions wrong, and the answer explanations aren't really explaining the rule --

In a case based on diversity jurisdiction where Citizen A from State A sues Citizen B from State B for >75k, and Citizen B from State B joins Citizen C from State B for a case arising from the same nucleus of fact, is joinder proper?

My understanding was because Citizen B would be the plaintiff against Citizen C in theory so the case is thrown out of federal court.... I'm assuming I'm wrong, but what's the rule?


Yes, there is supplemental jurisdiction over that claim. The "no claims by plaintiffs" rule you're thinking of applies only to original plaintiffs, not third-party plaintiffs, etc.


AND I think it needs to be same T/O right? you can't get supplemental jurisdiction unless there's T/O?

myrtlewinston
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby myrtlewinston » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:57 pm

LawGuy321 wrote:
a male human wrote:
victortsoi wrote:Really need some help with the essays here, I've put off really doing them after my graded essay, but want to start up again. How many do you guys suggest doing open book vs. closed book?
I feel like I usually "get" the answer, but leave out elements of the rule too much. Don't know the best targeted way to rectify this.

Mostly closed book. Hate to tell you this but it's July now. The point is to feel like shit now so you learn the parts you missed.


Ummm... ::nervous breakdown breathing:: Can i just say... ::breathes erratically:: that unless you're in Tokyo... ::grabs armchair vigorously:: it's still JUNE...?!


Breathe. You are the calm one, remember?

AReasonableMan
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby AReasonableMan » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:06 pm

LawGuy321 wrote:
musicfor18 wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:I keep on getting the same supplemental jurisdiction questions wrong, and the answer explanations aren't really explaining the rule --

In a case based on diversity jurisdiction where Citizen A from State A sues Citizen B from State B for >75k, and Citizen B from State B joins Citizen C from State B for a case arising from the same nucleus of fact, is joinder proper?

My understanding was because Citizen B would be the plaintiff against Citizen C in theory so the case is thrown out of federal court.... I'm assuming I'm wrong, but what's the rule?


Yes, there is supplemental jurisdiction over that claim. The "no claims by plaintiffs" rule you're thinking of applies only to original plaintiffs, not third-party plaintiffs, etc.


AND I think it needs to be same T/O right? you can't get supplemental jurisdiction unless there's T/O?

Yeah for whatever reason that one's easy for me to understand. It would be crazy to bring in completely unrelated lawsuits into the case. Like if you sued George Bush for a fender-bender, and then Bush sued Gore over the 2000 election - would be insane.

The concept of D1 being allowed to sue D2 for damages is harder for me to wrap my head around, because she's essentially acting like a plaintiff in that claim. I guess it's to preclude D1 from being able to weasel the case outta federal court? IDK it's annoying - slacked way too much for way too long to not understand stuff in 1 go.

musicfor18
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Re: BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby musicfor18 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:49 pm

LawGuy321 wrote:
musicfor18 wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:I keep on getting the same supplemental jurisdiction questions wrong, and the answer explanations aren't really explaining the rule --

In a case based on diversity jurisdiction where Citizen A from State A sues Citizen B from State B for >75k, and Citizen B from State B joins Citizen C from State B for a case arising from the same nucleus of fact, is joinder proper?

My understanding was because Citizen B would be the plaintiff against Citizen C in theory so the case is thrown out of federal court.... I'm assuming I'm wrong, but what's the rule?


Yes, there is supplemental jurisdiction over that claim. The "no claims by plaintiffs" rule you're thinking of applies only to original plaintiffs, not third-party plaintiffs, etc.


AND I think it needs to be same T/O right? you can't get supplemental jurisdiction unless there's T/O?


Technically, it had to be a "common nucleus of operative fact," which OP stated in his question.




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