Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

chipperjones
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby chipperjones » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:01 pm

LOL. After e-mailing Themis about this question and consulting the Torts outline, I am more convinced than ever that it's hogwash.

[+] Spoiler
An owner owns his home in the city. On the lawn in front of his home and within five feet of the public sidewalk there was a large tree. The roots of the tree caused the sidewalk to buckle severely and become dangerous. An ordinance of the city requires adjacent landowners to keep sidewalks in safe condition. The owner engaged a contractor to repair the sidewalk, leaving it to the contractor to decide how the repair should be made. The contractor dug up the sidewalk, cut back the roots of the tree, and laid a new sidewalk. Two days after the owner had paid the contractor the agreed price of the repair, the tree fell over onto the street and damaged a parked car belonging to the driver. The driver has asserted claims against the owner and the contractor, and both defendants admit that cutting the roots caused the tree to fall. The theory on which the driver is most likely to prevail against the owner is that the owner is

A. Strictly liable, because the tree was on his property.
B. Liable for the contractor's negligence if, to the owner's knowledge, the contractor was engaged in hazardous activity.
C. Liable, because he assumed responsibility when he paid the contractor for the repair.
D. Liable on the basis of respondeat superior.


[+] Spoiler
Answer choice B is correct. Generally, those who hire independent contractors are not vicariously liable for the torts of the independent contractors. However, a person who hires an independent contractor remains vicariously liable for certain conduct, including inherently dangerous activities. In such cases, a duty is imposed on the employer to see that care is taken. Answer choice A is incorrect because the mere fact that the tree is on the owner's property would be insufficient to establish a prima facie case of strict liability. Strict liability is typically imposed when a dangerous activity, animals, or dangerous or defective products are involved. Answer choice C is incorrect because landowners are generally not liable for the torts of independent contractors unless negligence can be shown (e.g., in the hiring). Merely paying the contractor for the repair, without more, is insufficient to establish liability. Answer choice D is incorrect because liability on the basis of respondeat superior applies when an employer/employee or principal/agent relationship exists and the act was committed within the scope of that relationship. These facts do not contemplate such a relationship, as the contractor was not under the immediate control of the owner.


[+] Spoiler
Someone who hires an IC is liable for his negligence if the duty is non-delegable. Here, the statute created such a duty. Admittedly, B could be correct, although it seems ludicrous to say that repairing a sidewalk is a strict-liability hazardous activity. But, even so, how is B a better answer than D? Respondeat superior is just the Latin formulation of "vicarious liability." Are they really saying that the distinction between respondeat superior and vicarious liability is meaningful in this context?
Last edited by chipperjones on Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sd5289
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby sd5289 » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:08 pm

IamIn wrote:"Of the four answer choices presented, answer choice D best states the standard for strict scrutiny, even though it uses the word "important" rather than "compelling" when describing the state's interest."

seriously? :cry: :cry: :cry:

Of course I didn't pick this answer! It states the wrong standard!


Yup. I fell for this exact same trap. I specifically rejected D because it was the wrong standard. And then yelled some expletives at my computer.

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anon sequitur
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby anon sequitur » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:11 pm

I chose D too, for what it's worth, for the exact same rationale, reasoning that even if it was a contractor that this was a non-delegable duty. However, I suppose you could argue that it is a delegable duty, even with the statute. And I couldn't come up with a good reason to eliminate B, so I went with "hazardous" didn't rise to the level of "inherently dangerous" or "ultra-hazardous", which I guess isn't good enough. Sucks man, but I try not to get hung-up on the 5% or so of the questions that are just ridiculous, figuring nobody gets them consistently right anyway.

chipperjones
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby chipperjones » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:18 pm

Thanks for the response, anon. I also thought maybe there was something to the fact that the duty could be delegable. However, I'll direct your attention to the outline:

The person who hires an independent contractor remains vicariously liable for certain conduct, including:

i) Inherently dangerous activities;

ii) Non-delegable duties arising out of a relationship with a specific plaintiff or the public (i.e., activities that are inherently risky or that affect the public at large, such as construction work adjacent to a public highway);

iii) The duty of a storekeeper or other operator of premises open to the public to keep such premises in a reasonably safe condition; and

iv) In a minority of jurisdictions, the duty to comply with state safety statutes.


I just don't think there's even a colorable argument that the statute in the question is meaningfully different than either the duty described in iii), or the statute mentioned in iv).


but I try not to get hung-up on the 5% or so of the questions that are just ridiculous, figuring nobody gets them consistently right anyway.
Agreed, but I can't ignore the nightmare scenario where the 5% (i.e., 10 questions over the course of the MBE) screw me.
Last edited by chipperjones on Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

always_raining
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby always_raining » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:20 pm

kjartan wrote:
always_raining wrote:The question says "if the jury believes the woman" — the woman claims she suspected her friends were thieves, joined them, and called the police to catch them in the act. So, if the jury believes her story, then her intent was not to steal, but rather to get the two friends caught. Not sure if that clarifies it?

OK, I just realized that I misconstrued "joined up with them." Themis meant "joined up with them" in the conspiracy, whereas I thought they meant "joined up with them" at the scene where the crime was to occur.


Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I interpreted the phrase "joined up with them" as meaning she joined up with them at the scene of the crime as well. But even so, if she did not intend to steal and the jury believed her, then she cannot be convicted, because it is a specific intent crime.

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IamIn
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby IamIn » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:20 pm

kjartan wrote:
somuchbooty wrote:Admittedly, I'm not even worried about the MBE anymore, but I'm 10 times more worried about the essays now that I've realized I can't write one without looking up a few things first in my notes.

I don't even know how to fix this. Review every possible essay subject for like 2 hours each? Read a ton of sample essays for each subject? All these prompts seem different so that scares me.

LOL me neither. I can usually spot the issue, but I need to turn to my notes to give a good rule statement.


same freaking thing..
I started re-reading lecture handouts and then issue-spot/read all the essays provided for the topic. Then I hope I will have time to re-read them again, but unlikely. I stopped writing essays at this point because I know I can write them, I just don't know the law.

I still have 3 graded essays left. Not sure whether I should spend time on them. My analysis and structure are decent, and I get good scores but only because I look up things in the outline lol :)

And I am still worried about the MBE..

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somuchbooty
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby somuchbooty » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:25 pm

IamIn wrote:
kjartan wrote:
somuchbooty wrote:Admittedly, I'm not even worried about the MBE anymore, but I'm 10 times more worried about the essays now that I've realized I can't write one without looking up a few things first in my notes.

I don't even know how to fix this. Review every possible essay subject for like 2 hours each? Read a ton of sample essays for each subject? All these prompts seem different so that scares me.

LOL me neither. I can usually spot the issue, but I need to turn to my notes to give a good rule statement.


same freaking thing..
I started re-reading lecture handouts and then issue-spot/read all the essays provided for the topic. Then I hope I will have time to re-read them again, but unlikely. I stopped writing essays at this point because I know I can write them, I just don't know the law.

I still have 3 graded essays left. Not sure whether I should spend time on them. My analysis and structure are decent, and I get good scores but only because I look up things in the outline lol :)

And I am still worried about the MBE..


My friend told me you had to submit all of the graded essays to be eligible to take it for free the next time assuming the worst. Is that true?

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IamIn
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby IamIn » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:34 pm

somuchbooty wrote:
IamIn wrote:
kjartan wrote:
somuchbooty wrote:Admittedly, I'm not even worried about the MBE anymore, but I'm 10 times more worried about the essays now that I've realized I can't write one without looking up a few things first in my notes.

I don't even know how to fix this. Review every possible essay subject for like 2 hours each? Read a ton of sample essays for each subject? All these prompts seem different so that scares me.

LOL me neither. I can usually spot the issue, but I need to turn to my notes to give a good rule statement.


same freaking thing..
I started re-reading lecture handouts and then issue-spot/read all the essays provided for the topic. Then I hope I will have time to re-read them again, but unlikely. I stopped writing essays at this point because I know I can write them, I just don't know the law.

I still have 3 graded essays left. Not sure whether I should spend time on them. My analysis and structure are decent, and I get good scores but only because I look up things in the outline lol :)

And I am still worried about the MBE..


My friend told me you had to submit all of the graded essays to be eligible to take it for free the next time assuming the worst. Is that true?


that's what I heard as well... And this is the only reason why I still consider submitting them.

Confused7
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Confused7 » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:50 pm

IamIn wrote:
somuchbooty wrote:
IamIn wrote:
kjartan wrote:
somuchbooty wrote:Admittedly, I'm not even worried about the MBE anymore, but I'm 10 times more worried about the essays now that I've realized I can't write one without looking up a few things first in my notes.

I don't even know how to fix this. Review every possible essay subject for like 2 hours each? Read a ton of sample essays for each subject? All these prompts seem different so that scares me.

LOL me neither. I can usually spot the issue, but I need to turn to my notes to give a good rule statement.


same freaking thing..
I started re-reading lecture handouts and then issue-spot/read all the essays provided for the topic. Then I hope I will have time to re-read them again, but unlikely. I stopped writing essays at this point because I know I can write them, I just don't know the law.

I still have 3 graded essays left. Not sure whether I should spend time on them. My analysis and structure are decent, and I get good scores but only because I look up things in the outline lol :)

And I am still worried about the MBE..


My friend told me you had to submit all of the graded essays to be eligible to take it for free the next time assuming the worst. Is that true?


that's what I heard as well... And this is the only reason why I still consider submitting them.


I still haven't submitted the graded MPT because I think it's a huge time sink at this point and I should be more focused on memorizing the law. I think you just have to be adaptable for the MPT but it shouldn't require too much practice. I also wonder if it's worth it to take Themis again for free? I mean won't we have access to the questions still and we'll have the outlines saved on our computers. Not really sure if it's worth it if all the questions will be the same. Might use Adaptibar or something different.

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IamIn
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby IamIn » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:53 pm

Confused7 wrote:
I still haven't submitted the graded MPT because I think it's a huge time sink at this point and I should be more focused on memorizing the law. I think you just have to be adaptable for the MPT but it shouldn't require too much practice. I also wonder if it's worth it to take Themis again for free? I mean won't we have access to the questions still and we'll have the outlines saved on our computers. Not really sure if it's worth it if all the questions will be the same. Might use Adaptibar or something different.


Also true.. There is no way I would be listening to all the lectures again.

kateebee
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby kateebee » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:55 pm

Confused7 wrote:
IamIn wrote:
somuchbooty wrote:
IamIn wrote:
kjartan wrote:
somuchbooty wrote: I also wonder if it's worth it to take Themis again for free? I mean won't we have access to the questions still and we'll have the outlines saved on our computers. Not really sure if it's worth it if all the questions will be the same. Might use Adaptibar or something different.


As I was lying awake last night around 4am, I was thinking this same thing. I think that even if I could Themis for free, I would probably switch to another program. I'm not an idiot, so if this doesn't work for me this time, there's not really a lot of hope that it would work better next time. Hoping it doesn't come to that.

Are you all happy with your choice to go with Themis overall or would you take another company's program if you could go back?

smalogna
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby smalogna » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:56 pm

So i'm concluding that memorization of all these degrees of crimes for NY criminal law is not worth the 5 points it might score me on one essay. Absolutely ridiculous!

Confused7
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Confused7 » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:59 pm

I'm pretty happy with my choice in Themis thus far. At first I thought I'd want the benefit of an in-person class to really be disciplined and help me focus, but I realized that I study well/better on my own. I also like the flexibility of setting my own schedule to study whenever I want during the day. I do wish Themis would have given us a disclaimer for the lectures, i.e. told us that they didn't cover everything that was important and that had previously come up on the MBE. If there's been a MBE on a topic, however minute, Themis should cover that material in the lectures.

I also think Themis tries to answer students' concerns and questions efficiently. But I've had thorough and complete answers to my questions and also answers that were obvious that they hadn't fully read my question. Sometimes I do miss the face-to-face interaction if nothing but to be able to ask my questions and have them answered in person. I don't like to keep emailing Themis about the same question because the reply did not address all of my concerns.

GULCPerson
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby GULCPerson » Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:14 pm

I wish I had a better sense of what's actually worth points on the essays. Only having impossibly thorough model answers is frustrating. They contain so much fluff that doesn't seem like it should actually be worth any points.

For example, I just had a torts essay about a private nuisance where a neighbor builds a huge wall near the property line. The facts state "Roy now wants to sue Jake in Circuit Court to have the fence removed." The question asks "On what theory might Roy base his lawsuit, what remedy should he seek, and... "

The model answer talks extensively about Roy seeking money damages, even though the fact pattern says he's suing to have the fence removed. In my mind, the possibility of money damages shouldn't even come up (other than when discussing that you can't get an injunction unless they're inadequate), because the fact pattern rules this out.

dunneab
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby dunneab » Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:41 pm

NY MCQS

I have gotten at least 3 repeat questions in sets 1-4.

On top of that, I have barely managed to pass? Anyone else struggling?

Are there other online resources for NY MCQs? I mean, this can't be the best preparation on offer (can it?)

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Lawbro
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Lawbro » Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:50 pm

NY MCQ. There's one question that has shown up in every single set I've done so far. And in the last set I'm doing right now, it showed up twice back to back. Least maybe i'll finally get higher than 50% :lol:

dunneab
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby dunneab » Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:53 pm

Lawbro wrote:NY MCQ. There's one question that has shown up in every single set I've done so far. And in the last set I'm doing right now, it showed up twice back to back. Least maybe i'll finally get higher than 50% :lol:


That's hilarious. And just as I posted, the one about Canadian law governing came up again.... and then negative equity security interests.

Is this perhaps a glorious indication that NY MCQs are often repeats???

Sefolifau
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Sefolifau » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:22 pm

Colorado checking in here. What are people's completion rates so far? Does anyone know what percent completion we should be at by now? Thank you !

kgus22
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby kgus22 » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:42 pm

smalogna wrote:So i'm concluding that memorization of all these degrees of crimes for NY criminal law is not worth the 5 points it might score me on one essay. Absolutely ridiculous!


I figured its not worth it either. I will just say higher vs lower degree based on how bad the crime is...

I e-mailed Themis about the re-take requirements, this was their reply:


There is no percentage or completion requirement. In order to be eligible to retake the course for free you:
1) Must have taken a full bar review course
2) Are a first-time Themis taker
3) Must provide documentation that you sat for and were unsuccessful on the exam
4) Have to retake the same jurisdiction in the next administration of the exam
I hope this helps clear that up. Please let us know if you have any other questions.


I e-mailed back asking what "taken full bar review course" meant. I was a Themis rep at my school and we were always told just 75%, no essay requirement. Will let you all know when they reply.

zot1
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby zot1 » Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:11 pm

Sefolifau wrote:Colorado checking in here. What are people's completion rates so far? Does anyone know what percent completion we should be at by now? Thank you !


79.9%. I'm behind though so when I start taking the MBE 100s, I'll also be having like 6 more assignments to complete for the day and that seems like a nightmare.

However, I chose to take yesterday off even though I was already behind because I was feeling super burned out. Totally worth it. I was super productive today (2.5%), hit most points on the essay questions and got a 72 on an MBE 50. I don't mind being behind if I'm not burned out.

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kjartan
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby kjartan » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:18 pm

always_raining wrote:
kjartan wrote:
always_raining wrote:The question says "if the jury believes the woman" — the woman claims she suspected her friends were thieves, joined them, and called the police to catch them in the act. So, if the jury believes her story, then her intent was not to steal, but rather to get the two friends caught. Not sure if that clarifies it?

OK, I just realized that I misconstrued "joined up with them." Themis meant "joined up with them" in the conspiracy, whereas I thought they meant "joined up with them" at the scene where the crime was to occur.


Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I interpreted the phrase "joined up with them" as meaning she joined up with them at the scene of the crime as well. But even so, if she did not intend to steal and the jury believed her, then she cannot be convicted, because it is a specific intent crime.

If you refer back to my question you'll see that I thought she did intend to steal. I thought the question was testing withdrawal from a conspiracy.

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somuchbooty
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby somuchbooty » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:21 pm

Something that is bothering me, but I just want to confirm here, is that when the questions ask if you can sue on breach of contract for not delivering marketable title, and the answer is always 'You can not sue on breach of contract, because her contract obligations as to title merged into the deed,' is it basically just the word choice using 'breach of contract?' I mean, I assume you can sue on the deed, it just annoys me when questions assume that someone is bringing an invalid claim when there is a valid one. Dumb rant probably, but from the %'s it seems like people usually miss that question.

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Lawbro
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Lawbro » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:34 pm

There's a lot of questions like that. They say what claim the person is bringing and you have to figure out if that claim can be met (even if there are better claims out there). It happens a lot in Torts questions

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somuchbooty
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby somuchbooty » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:38 pm

Lawbro wrote:There's a lot of questions like that. They say what claim the person is bringing and you have to figure out if that claim can be met (even if there are better claims out there). It happens a lot in Torts questions


Yeah. I have already reminded myself to read torts questions twice for this very reason. Guess it's a decent way to get some extra points around half seem to be missing is the other way to look at it.

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anon sequitur
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby anon sequitur » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:41 pm

Yeah, that particular issue really screwed me over, missed probably 5 different versions of this. But at least now when I see a question about suing for breach of contract after closing I shout to myself "haha, you lose dumb-ass, the contract folds into the deed". But it does highlight how screwed-up the bar is, why is that such an important detail to test on? Assuming the buyer still has some recourse, although I don't know what the proper action would be. Tort claim of some sort, fraud, I guess?




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