Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

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sd5289
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby sd5289 » Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:29 pm

UnamSanctam wrote:
zot1 wrote:I need some reassurance: how many people here get the answer very close to the model answer on essays?


I generally know the concepts being tested but don't really know the BLL. And even when I do know the BLL, if it requires a gut call, I usually end up with good analysis but the wrong answer.


Same. Essays have been my strong suit. I actually like my grader because he torpedo'd me on my first essay, which I deserved, but gave me high marks on the rest, which I also thought I deserved because they all covered strengths of mine, and I felt good about them. So on the last graded essay, when I came out differently from the model answer's conclusion, I kinda thought "whoops, so much for that streak." He came back with, different answer, but law/analysis were good, so it's fine.

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soj
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby soj » Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:43 pm

my grader is worthless. she harps on me for missing issues that i didn't miss (i even had a separate heading, paragraph, and irac for it, it just happened not to be in the exact same place it was in the model answer), randomly writes "NEED MORE FACTS" (including that one very rare instance i actually incorporated more facts into the analysis than the model answer) in every essay, and gives me a nonsense score between 55 and 75 with no correlation to how i actually did (maybe a slight negative correlation). fuck off already.

i too have trouble coming up with rule statements even for topics that i know pretty well for MBE purposes. but i usually do end up with smoething that vaguely resembles the rule and once i get the rule down i'm not too bad at incorporating relevant facts so i'm satisfied with that.

zot1
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby zot1 » Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:54 pm

sd5289 wrote:
UnamSanctam wrote:
zot1 wrote:I need some reassurance: how many people here get the answer very close to the model answer on essays?


I generally know the concepts being tested but don't really know the BLL. And even when I do know the BLL, if it requires a gut call, I usually end up with good analysis but the wrong answer.


Same. Essays have been my strong suit. I actually like my grader because he torpedo'd me on my first essay, which I deserved, but gave me high marks on the rest, which I also thought I deserved because they all covered strengths of mine, and I felt good about them. So on the last graded essay, when I came out differently from the model answer's conclusion, I kinda thought "whoops, so much for that streak." He came back with, different answer, but law/analysis were good, so it's fine.


Okay I'm basically like this; know some law, other is not quite on point, good analysis, but sometimes wrong answer. When it comes to grades essays if I missed something on the law I get everything else wrong whether my analysis was correct or not.

It's hard with essays because I can't see a number grade so when I compare my answer with the model answer I don't know if my answer would have made the cut or not. I mean, wouldn't the model answer amount to 100%? It's all just hard to assess.

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BelugaWhale
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby BelugaWhale » Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:55 pm

speaking of which, do you actually get points for good analysis but wrong answer?

healthnut
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby healthnut » Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:58 pm

For the record, for additional graded essays you must email your advisor at their actual Themis email (@themisbar.com) with a copy of the essay and question ID#. They do not grade the three simulated day essays, but will grade the simulated MPT.

I am confused as to why I am doing so much better on Adaptibar than these the milestone/simulated MBE exams. Any idea? Themis uses legit NCBE questions, right? In that case, it must be the format of reading from the book v. computer.

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UnamSanctam
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby UnamSanctam » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:01 pm

BelugaWhale wrote:speaking of which, do you actually get points for good analysis but wrong answer?


My understanding is that the bulk come from analysis (and rule, obviously) rather than conclusion.

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sd5289
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby sd5289 » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:17 pm

zot1 wrote:Okay I'm basically like this; know some law, other is not quite on point, good analysis, but sometimes wrong answer. When it comes to grades essays if I missed something on the law I get everything else wrong whether my analysis was correct or not.

It's hard with essays because I can't see a number grade so when I compare my answer with the model answer I don't know if my answer would have made the cut or not. I mean, wouldn't the model answer amount to 100%? It's all just hard to assess.


The boldest part is what I'm not getting. I've gotten the "wrong answer" compared to the model answer, but from what I've been told (and what the Themis essay workshops told us), who gives a shit what your conclusion (a/k/a "answer") was so long as you got the issue, rule, and analysis down. Like, I can understand if you missed an exception to general rule, or missed a particular component, but essays are all about just adding up points, so you should be getting points for what you're hitting, even if you're missing other things.

And wait, you should be getting a numeric grade on all of your graded essays. And I've written essays that hit more than the model answer, so I don't think those are reflective of 100% since my highest grade is an 88% (which, to dispel any fears, I'm ecstatic with and am not complaining about at all). I'd log back in to your graded essays, and hit the review button. You should see hyperlinks for your answer, the "model" answer, comments, and scores. There should also be, on the overall graded essays page, a comparison between your score and the Themis average.

Hope this helps!

ETA: I just realized that I should probably add in the following: I learned after my first essay where I was torpedo'd (got a 45% mainly because I missed some things but also leaped past the basic law) that I cannot, cannot assume anything with respect to law. Start at the very basic and work your way forward. As in: "the UCC governs K's for sale of goods. In a sale of goods K, the UCC requires "perfect tender." Perfect tender means perfectly conforming goods and perfect delivery..." etc etc. That basic. I'm still having trouble on occasion remembering to do this, so when I wrote the Corps essay last week, and discussed a director's duty not to self-deal, my advisor reminded me that I need to write out that a director owes a fiduciary duty of loyalty to the corporation, which I had not included. I don't know if that helps either, but that's what I've been focusing on since that first essay, and have improved dramatically.

zot1
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby zot1 » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:30 pm

sd5289 wrote:
zot1 wrote:Okay I'm basically like this; know some law, other is not quite on point, good analysis, but sometimes wrong answer. When it comes to grades essays if I missed something on the law I get everything else wrong whether my analysis was correct or not.

It's hard with essays because I can't see a number grade so when I compare my answer with the model answer I don't know if my answer would have made the cut or not. I mean, wouldn't the model answer amount to 100%? It's all just hard to assess.


The boldest part is what I'm not getting. I've gotten the "wrong answer" compared to the model answer, but from what I've been told (and what the Themis essay workshops told us), who gives a shit what your conclusion (a/k/a "answer") was so long as you got the issue, rule, and analysis down. Like, I can understand if you missed an exception to general rule, or missed a particular component, but essays are all about just adding up points, so you should be getting points for what you're hitting, even if you're missing other things.

And wait, you should be getting a numeric grade on all of your graded essays. And I've written essays that hit more than the model answer, so I don't think those are reflective of 100% since my highest grade is an 88% (which, to dispel any fears, I'm ecstatic with and am not complaining about at all). I'd log back in to your graded essays, and hit the review button. You should see hyperlinks for your answer, the "model" answer, comments, and scores. There should also be, on the overall graded essays page, a comparison between your score and the Themis average.

Hope this helps!

ETA: I just realized that I should probably add in the following: I learned after my first essay where I was torpedo'd (got a 45% mainly because I missed some things but also leaped past the basic law) that I cannot, cannot assume anything with respect to law. Start at the very basic and work your way forward. As in: "the UCC governs K's for sale of goods. In a sale of goods K, the UCC requires "perfect tender." Perfect tender means perfectly conforming goods and perfect delivery..." etc etc. That basic. I'm still having trouble on occasion remembering to do this, so when I wrote the Corps essay last week, and discussed a director's duty not to self-deal, my advisor reminded me that I need to write out that a director owes a fiduciary duty of loyalty to the corporation, which I had not included. I don't know if that helps either, but that's what I've been focusing on since that first essay, and have improved dramatically.


I do get a numeric grade for graded essays but not practice essays (compared to getting a numeric grade on all MBEs whether practice or milestone). However, if I get some of the law wrong, my grader simply dismisses the rest of my answer and says my analysis is not complete because I missed something from the rule. My highest grade was an 86 for the PT, then a couple of 67s on the first two essays, then 40s and 50s since.

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sd5289
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby sd5289 » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:35 pm

zot1 wrote:I do get a numeric grade for graded essays but not practice essays (compared to getting a numeric grade on all MBEs whether practice or milestone). However, if I get some of the law wrong, my grader simply dismisses the rest of my answer and says my analysis is not complete because I missed something from the rule. My highest grade was an 86 for the PT, then a couple of 67s on the first two essays, then 40s and 50s since.


Oh. I misunderstood you. I don't get them for practice essays either. I read earlier on here that you can do extra submissions though to your grader? Though it sounds like your grader might be an issue. Have you spoken to your advisor about it? My understanding from my advisor and other people who have passed the bar is that "one missed thing = one missed point" and that's it. Not, the whole essay is fucked.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby zot1 » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:48 pm

sd5289 wrote:
zot1 wrote:I do get a numeric grade for graded essays but not practice essays (compared to getting a numeric grade on all MBEs whether practice or milestone). However, if I get some of the law wrong, my grader simply dismisses the rest of my answer and says my analysis is not complete because I missed something from the rule. My highest grade was an 86 for the PT, then a couple of 67s on the first two essays, then 40s and 50s since.


Oh. I misunderstood you. I don't get them for practice essays either. I read earlier on here that you can do extra submissions though to your grader? Though it sounds like your grader might be an issue. Have you spoken to your advisor about it? My understanding from my advisor and other people who have passed the bar is that "one missed thing = one missed point" and that's it. Not, the whole essay is fucked.


It's cool.

I got two graded essays left. I might just let it go.

Graded essays aside I just wish we would know how close to the model answer you have to be to pass. That was my original point.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby chipperjones » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:11 pm

Have literally gotten a 60% on every single graded essay. On some of them, I was penalized for structure when I lucidly followed TRAC. On others, I was penalized under the "legal knowledge" category when I simply drew the wrong conclusion but had all the right rules/analysis and structure. I got my first few 60s because I fucking didn't finish the question/time constraints. That hasn't been my problem in over a month...and I've beefed up everything else...and still getting straight 60s.

I'm convinced that many of the graders, like with Themis itself, err on the side of nailing you because it aligns with their interests of garnering the highest pass rates.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby henry flower » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:12 pm

sd5289 wrote: ETA: I just realized that I should probably add in the following: I learned after my first essay where I was torpedo'd (got a 45% mainly because I missed some things but also leaped past the basic law) that I cannot, cannot assume anything with respect to law. Start at the very basic and work your way forward. As in: "the UCC governs K's for sale of goods. In a sale of goods K, the UCC requires "perfect tender." Perfect tender means perfectly conforming goods and perfect delivery..." etc etc. That basic. I'm still having trouble on occasion remembering to do this, so when I wrote the Corps essay last week, and discussed a director's duty not to self-deal, my advisor reminded me that I need to write out that a director owes a fiduciary duty of loyalty to the corporation, which I had not included. I don't know if that helps either, but that's what I've been focusing on since that first essay, and have improved dramatically.


How much time do you have to write your essays? This might be a jurisdictional difference, but the approach you outline would be tough to implement for our essay questions. In Maryland, we have approximately 25 minutes a question, and each one raises at least 3 or 4 major issues. And of course all of those big issues usually have their own elements, exceptions, sub-rules, definitions, etc. For the vast majority of the essay questions I've answered, spelling everything out at the really basic level you seem to be talking about without running out of time would be almost impossible. And judging from the bar-examiner-supplied "representative answers" from previous candidates and my advisor's comments, my jurisdiction (Maryland) does not seem to want (much less require) that rules be stated at such a basic, granular level in essay answers. In fact, I've gotten good grades for answers where most of the legal rules applied were essentially implicit in my analysis, although it should be noted that my headings do a lot of the heavy lifting.

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sd5289
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby sd5289 » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:58 pm

henry flower wrote:
sd5289 wrote: ETA: I just realized that I should probably add in the following: I learned after my first essay where I was torpedo'd (got a 45% mainly because I missed some things but also leaped past the basic law) that I cannot, cannot assume anything with respect to law. Start at the very basic and work your way forward. As in: "the UCC governs K's for sale of goods. In a sale of goods K, the UCC requires "perfect tender." Perfect tender means perfectly conforming goods and perfect delivery..." etc etc. That basic. I'm still having trouble on occasion remembering to do this, so when I wrote the Corps essay last week, and discussed a director's duty not to self-deal, my advisor reminded me that I need to write out that a director owes a fiduciary duty of loyalty to the corporation, which I had not included. I don't know if that helps either, but that's what I've been focusing on since that first essay, and have improved dramatically.


How much time do you have to write your essays? This might be a jurisdictional difference, but the approach you outline would be tough to implement for our essay questions. In Maryland, we have approximately 25 minutes a question, and each one raises at least 3 or 4 major issues. And of course all of those big issues usually have their own elements, exceptions, sub-rules, definitions, etc. For the vast majority of the essay questions I've answered, spelling everything out at the really basic level you seem to be talking about without running out of time would be almost impossible. And judging from the bar-examiner-supplied "representative answers" from previous candidates and my advisor's comments, my jurisdiction (Maryland) does not seem to want (much less require) that rules be stated at such a basic, granular level in essay answers. In fact, I've gotten good grades for answers where most of the legal rules applied were essentially implicit in my analysis, although it should be noted that my headings do a lot of the heavy lifting.


25 minutes?? :shock:

We get 40 (I'm in NY). Our essays tend to raise 2-3 issues, specifically delineated in the questions at the end.

This is a good jurisdictional difference to point out. We have more time, and seem to be rewarded more for general to specific rule formulations. Thanks for that catch!

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Pleasye » Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:32 pm

MBE day felt even more brutal than the essay day, jesus.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby kjartan » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:36 pm

You aren't (necessarily) "wrong" for coming to a different conclusion than the model answer. Sometimes you don't have enough facts and it comes down to a judgment call.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby lost in translation » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:58 am

misterjames wrote:to my fellow NY takers, anyone else a bit surprised at Themis' lack of emphasis on Family law? considering it's the third most tested essay topic and we covered it like a month ago...



I can't help wonder if they put it in earlier to make sure people covered it because people might drop extra subjects off when running short of time - downside is a few weeks is a long time in memory land.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby smalogna » Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:10 am

lost in translation wrote:
misterjames wrote:to my fellow NY takers, anyone else a bit surprised at Themis' lack of emphasis on Family law? considering it's the third most tested essay topic and we covered it like a month ago...



I can't help wonder if they put it in earlier to make sure people covered it because people might drop extra subjects off when running short of time - downside is a few weeks is a long time in memory land.


I guarantee that was their reasoning but I'm making it a priority to memorize regardless of what the Themis schedule says. I have read some concerning stuff around the net about following Themis schedule to the T and then not being prepared fully so not completely attached to the schedule at this late stage.

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kjartan
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby kjartan » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:33 pm

I basically wrote the model answer for the graded CPT and got a 60. My grader has to be fucking with me.

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annapach
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby annapach » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:05 pm

My back went into spasm from being seated so much of the day, every day. Now I am trying to study on muscle relaxers- would not recommend! Moral of the story, everyone make sure you're staying active, moving around, stretching, etc!

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Mad Hatter
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Mad Hatter » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:14 pm

There's no feeling quite like watching the secured transaction videos, making my own outline, and then facing 2 PQ essays that were not in the slightest covered in the lecture (for those curious: account assignment and fixtures). Wonderful.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby gr8scOtt! » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:38 pm

I just want to see if I've got this right, if someone can confirm?

Federal Civ Pro Impleader, when original claim based on DJ
Plaintiff (State A) sues Defendant/3rd Party Plaintiff (State B). 3rd Party Plaintiff impleads 3rd Party Defendant (State ???)

Can the 3rd Party Defendant be from whatever state, including State B? And so long as DJ is met between Plaintiff and 3rd Party Defendant, Plaintiff can a claim against 3rd Party Defendant.

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kjartan
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby kjartan » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:54 pm

After having so many shitty lecturers, I'm glad to see Kramer lecturing for Wills. He makes it so easy to follow along.

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zor
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby zor » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:57 pm

gr8scOtt! wrote:I just want to see if I've got this right, if someone can confirm?

Federal Civ Pro Impleader, when original claim based on DJ
Plaintiff (State A) sues Defendant/3rd Party Plaintiff (State B). 3rd Party Plaintiff impleads 3rd Party Defendant (State ???)

Can the 3rd Party Defendant be from whatever state, including State B? And so long as DJ is met between Plaintiff and 3rd Party Defendant, Plaintiff can a claim against 3rd Party Defendant.


I'm pretty sure that's right. 3rd P Def can be from whatever state and the claims against it by the original defendant/third-party plaintiff will have supplemental jurisdiction.

There is no supplemental jurisdiction over claims by plaintiff against 3rd party defendant. This means there has to be independent diversity jurisdiction, as if it were its own new lawsuit. So yes, as long as DJ is met between Plaintiff and 3rd P Def, Plaintiff can file a claim.

osheimb
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby osheimb » Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:01 pm

BelugaWhale wrote:speaking of which, do you actually get points for good analysis but wrong answer?


As already touched on above, this depends on your state, but it also depends on your grader. Based on my conversations with other people who've taken the bar in different states, and based on my own experience (I'm licensed in 1 state, taking July in another), then yes, most of your points will come from your analysis, issue spotting, and your organizational structure. Conclusions are minimal points. In Michigan, I received a perfect score (10/10) after coming to the wrong conclusion but after spotting all issues and analyzing them thoroughly. Most graders would have dinged me a point for the conclusion, but I got lucky :D

gr8scOtt!
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby gr8scOtt! » Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:25 pm

zor wrote:
gr8scOtt! wrote:I just want to see if I've got this right, if someone can confirm?

Federal Civ Pro Impleader, when original claim based on DJ
Plaintiff (State A) sues Defendant/3rd Party Plaintiff (State B). 3rd Party Plaintiff impleads 3rd Party Defendant (State ???)

Can the 3rd Party Defendant be from whatever state, including State B? And so long as DJ is met between Plaintiff and 3rd Party Defendant, Plaintiff can a claim against 3rd Party Defendant.


I'm pretty sure that's right. 3rd P Def can be from whatever state and the claims against it by the original defendant/third-party plaintiff will have supplemental jurisdiction.

There is no supplemental jurisdiction over claims by plaintiff against 3rd party defendant. This means there has to be independent diversity jurisdiction, as if it were its own new lawsuit. So yes, as long as DJ is met between Plaintiff and 3rd P Def, Plaintiff can file a claim.

Thanks!




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