Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

[MrMustache]

After doing well on the first graded essay and getting some substantive criticism, I have since gotten 60s on each and there has been minimal (at best) feedback from my grader other than "no this is what the sample answer says." This is frustrating because compared to the sample answers I should have scored significantly better on all but one of them. At this point I'm getting kind of discouraged, and I don't see the point in submitting them for this dude to just give me a 60 and paste stuff from the sample answer as "comments." Anyone else having a similar experience with their grader?

Had similar experience. Simply stopped submitting graded assignments. I figured I don't need some asshole telling me that an essay that isn't a carbon copy of a model answer will not pass.

I'd rather feel like I passed the bar while waiting for the results and then fail, than to feel like I failed the bar and then fail anyway.

[Velours]

Do the mixed MBE sets repeat questions from the individual sets? I feel like I've seen a few of them before, but it might be from the tips lectures.

[somuchbooty]

Do the mixed MBE sets repeat questions from the individual sets? I feel like I've seen a few of them before, but it might be from the tips lectures.

My advisor told me they repeat if you miss them on the phone I think. Not sure if I heard that right, I was being lectured about how I was too far behind schedule so I tuned her out a bit.

[ineptimusprime]

Just got OWNED by Mixed Questions set 6.... 62%. Anyone else feel like this set was harder than the previous ones?

[gr8scOtt!]

I'd rather feel like I passed the bar while waiting for the results and then fail, than to feel like I failed the bar and then fail anyway.

I prepping mentally for a fail and will be pleasantly surprised if I don't.

Do the mixed MBE sets repeat questions from the individual sets? I feel like I've seen a few of them before, but it might be from the tips lectures.

I swear I had a question in two different sets EXACTLY the same (down to answers and everything) and the first time it was one answer and the second time it was another. I went back through all the sets to find the first question again and could never find it. It disappeared!

But yeah, I've seen them give the same background and then only change the prompt. For example, the first time it gives the facts, it will ask what A's best argument is. The second time it asks, it will ask what B's best argument is. Or something along those lines. I've also seen them change one small fact, but the rest of the question is essentially the same.

[anon sequitur]

I don't know if they repeat questions or not, but I know that the MBE has done quite a few questions based off of similar formats, with very slight variations in the fact pattern and sometimes significant differences in the call of the question. In particular, there is one about a plaintiff with a claim against an employer who asks his lawyer for money for medical expenses, the lawyer gives him a letter of suretyship against future income from any judgment, then plaintiff goes and racks up medical expenses. Then the lawyer assigns his contract with the plaintiff to a different lawyer. I've seen it three times, the wording virtually identical except one time it was a doctor, another time it was a chiropractor, that sort of change. Then the call of the question changed, once about the validity of a doctor's claim against the lawyer for the plaintiff's debts, another about the validity of the lawyer's assignment of the contract to another lawyer.

It makes sense, writing questions is time consuming, you'd figure they'd get as much mileage out of each scenario as possible. Make a story, ask a question, then wait a year, use the same story with different pertinent details to ask a different question.

[zot1]

As to whether there are repeat MBE questions: yes, I've had a few with the exact same answer (sometimes the same facts with something changed are used, I'm not including those here).

Conspiracy vs. solicitation question:

[+] Spoiler

I had an MBE question where the dude offered to pay money to his brother if his brother killed his wife's boss since he found out she was having an affair. The dude paid the money, the brother did the killing. The question was what charges dude could be charged with. My answer was murder only (because the solicitation charge merges into the murder). But the correct answer was murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

So I understand that conspiracy does not merge into the completed offense. But 1. How is it possible to be charged with both conspiracy and solicitation? and 2. How is this a conspiracy?

Thanks!!

[sd5289]

Actual Crim Pro practice question:

[+] Spoiler

A minor who was tried as an adult was convicted as a drug dealer for possession of a pound and a half of cocaine. The state statute mandated that the defendant be sentenced to life without the possibility of parole. The statute did not provide for consideration of mitigating factors. On appeal, the defendant challenges the constitutionality of his sentence. Should the court rule in his favor?

Jesus Themis. I don't recall this coming up at all in the lectures or long outline, and the only reason I knew the answer was because I wrote a motion on this very issue two summers ago, so knew the SCOTUS case law.

ETA: nevermind. Found it in a random small mention on the lecture handout. Think that's just the product of 7 weeks of bar prep catching up to me.

[Nelson]

As to whether there are repeat MBE questions: yes, I've had a few with the exact same answer (sometimes the same facts with something changed are used, I'm not including those here).

Conspiracy vs. solicitation question:

[+] Spoiler

I had an MBE question where the dude offered to pay money to his brother if his brother killed his wife's boss since he found out she was having an affair. The dude paid the money, the brother did the killing. The question was what charges dude could be charged with. My answer was murder only (because the solicitation charge merges into the murder). But the correct answer was murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

So I understand that conspiracy does not merge into the completed offense. But 1. How is it possible to be charged with both conspiracy and solicitation? and 2. How is this a conspiracy?

Thanks!!

There's an agreement between two people to commit a crime. That's a conspiracy. The fact that one person just paid money is irrelevant, there's still an agreement to commit the crime. Conspiracy never merges with the underlying offense.

[smalogna]

After doing well on the first graded essay and getting some substantive criticism, I have since gotten 60s on each and there has been minimal (at best) feedback from my grader other than "no this is what the sample answer says." This is frustrating because compared to the sample answers I should have scored significantly better on all but one of them. At this point I'm getting kind of discouraged, and I don't see the point in submitting them for this dude to just give me a 60 and paste stuff from the sample answer as "comments." Anyone else having a similar experience with their grader?

Had similar experience. Simply stopped submitting graded assignments. I figured I don't need some asshole telling me that an essay that isn't a carbon copy of a model answer will not pass.

I'd rather feel like I passed the bar while waiting for the results and then fail, than to feel like I failed the bar and then fail anyway.

I'd be careful with this as I believe, don't quote me, in order to use Themis again for free if necessary you must submit all graded essays to qualify for the retake quarantee.

[sd5289]

After doing well on the first graded essay and getting some substantive criticism, I have since gotten 60s on each and there has been minimal (at best) feedback from my grader other than "no this is what the sample answer says." This is frustrating because compared to the sample answers I should have scored significantly better on all but one of them. At this point I'm getting kind of discouraged, and I don't see the point in submitting them for this dude to just give me a 60 and paste stuff from the sample answer as "comments." Anyone else having a similar experience with their grader?

Had similar experience. Simply stopped submitting graded assignments. I figured I don't need some asshole telling me that an essay that isn't a carbon copy of a model answer will not pass.

I'd rather feel like I passed the bar while waiting for the results and then fail, than to feel like I failed the bar and then fail anyway.

I'd be careful with this as I believe, don't quote me, in order to use Themis again for free if necessary you must submit all graded essays to qualify for the retake quarantee.

I thought it was you had to complete 75% of the course? Or 80%. I can't remember exactly.

Also, I'd still do the graded essays just to get the practice in. I am definitely worlds away from where I was when I started these essays.

[zot1]

As to whether there are repeat MBE questions: yes, I've had a few with the exact same answer (sometimes the same facts with something changed are used, I'm not including those here).

Conspiracy vs. solicitation question:

[+] Spoiler

I had an MBE question where the dude offered to pay money to his brother if his brother killed his wife's boss since he found out she was having an affair. The dude paid the money, the brother did the killing. The question was what charges dude could be charged with. My answer was murder only (because the solicitation charge merges into the murder). But the correct answer was murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

So I understand that conspiracy does not merge into the completed offense. But 1. How is it possible to be charged with both conspiracy and solicitation? and 2. How is this a conspiracy?

Thanks!!

There's an agreement between two people to commit a crime. That's a conspiracy. The fact that one person just paid money is irrelevant, there's still an agreement to commit the crime. Conspiracy never merges with the underlying offense.

Okay, I get that. I guess a better a question would be how do I distinguish between the two?

[kateebee]

To whomever asked about Commercial Law 17 videos... if it makes you feel any better, they are all under 20 minutes and most are under 10. I just spent the afternoon breezing through them at 2x, but I am still not sure if it was a good use of my time or not. If you took Commercial Law, it's probably not that useful.

[somuchbooty]

As to whether there are repeat MBE questions: yes, I've had a few with the exact same answer (sometimes the same facts with something changed are used, I'm not including those here).

Conspiracy vs. solicitation question:

[+] Spoiler

I had an MBE question where the dude offered to pay money to his brother if his brother killed his wife's boss since he found out she was having an affair. The dude paid the money, the brother did the killing. The question was what charges dude could be charged with. My answer was murder only (because the solicitation charge merges into the murder). But the correct answer was murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

So I understand that conspiracy does not merge into the completed offense. But 1. How is it possible to be charged with both conspiracy and solicitation? and 2. How is this a conspiracy?

Thanks!!

There's an agreement between two people to commit a crime. That's a conspiracy. The fact that one person just paid money is irrelevant, there's still an agreement to commit the crime. Conspiracy never merges with the underlying offense.

Okay, I get that. I guess a better a question would be how do I distinguish between the two?

I think about it with these examples, but maybe I'm wrong and if I am, hopefully someone corrects me.

Solicitation would be like if you were watching a bar fight and screamed and cheered for some guy to shoot someone laying on the ground and then he doesn't do it. You still committed criminal solicitation.

In the scope of hiring a hitman, if you try to hire a hitman and he tells you no, that's criminal solicitation. If he says yes and does it, it's conspiracy, no longer solicitation.

Am I wrong? I read that back and now I am doubting myself.

[sd5289]

As to whether there are repeat MBE questions: yes, I've had a few with the exact same answer (sometimes the same facts with something changed are used, I'm not including those here).

Conspiracy vs. solicitation question:

[+] Spoiler

I had an MBE question where the dude offered to pay money to his brother if his brother killed his wife's boss since he found out she was having an affair. The dude paid the money, the brother did the killing. The question was what charges dude could be charged with. My answer was murder only (because the solicitation charge merges into the murder). But the correct answer was murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

So I understand that conspiracy does not merge into the completed offense. But 1. How is it possible to be charged with both conspiracy and solicitation? and 2. How is this a conspiracy?

Thanks!!

There's an agreement between two people to commit a crime. That's a conspiracy. The fact that one person just paid money is irrelevant, there's still an agreement to commit the crime. Conspiracy never merges with the underlying offense.

Okay, I get that. I guess a better a question would be how do I distinguish between the two?

Try and think of it as conspiracy equals an agreement between two or more people whereas solicitation is one person directing (e.g. soliciting) another person to commit a crime.

[Pleasye]

As to whether there are repeat MBE questions: yes, I've had a few with the exact same answer (sometimes the same facts with something changed are used, I'm not including those here).

Conspiracy vs. solicitation question:

[+] Spoiler

I had an MBE question where the dude offered to pay money to his brother if his brother killed his wife's boss since he found out she was having an affair. The dude paid the money, the brother did the killing. The question was what charges dude could be charged with. My answer was murder only (because the solicitation charge merges into the murder). But the correct answer was murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

So I understand that conspiracy does not merge into the completed offense. But 1. How is it possible to be charged with both conspiracy and solicitation? and 2. How is this a conspiracy?

Thanks!!

There's an agreement between two people to commit a crime. That's a conspiracy. The fact that one person just paid money is irrelevant, there's still an agreement to commit the crime. Conspiracy never merges with the underlying offense.

Okay, I get that. I guess a better a question would be how do I distinguish between the two?

Solicitation is asking someone to commit a crime. Conspiracy is an agreement to commit a crime. They are separate offenses but if you've committed solicitation you've committed conspiracy once the other person agrees to do what you asked them to do.

[zot1]

As to whether there are repeat MBE questions: yes, I've had a few with the exact same answer (sometimes the same facts with something changed are used, I'm not including those here).

Conspiracy vs. solicitation question:

[+] Spoiler

I had an MBE question where the dude offered to pay money to his brother if his brother killed his wife's boss since he found out she was having an affair. The dude paid the money, the brother did the killing. The question was what charges dude could be charged with. My answer was murder only (because the solicitation charge merges into the murder). But the correct answer was murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

So I understand that conspiracy does not merge into the completed offense. But 1. How is it possible to be charged with both conspiracy and solicitation? and 2. How is this a conspiracy?

Thanks!!

There's an agreement between two people to commit a crime. That's a conspiracy. The fact that one person just paid money is irrelevant, there's still an agreement to commit the crime. Conspiracy never merges with the underlying offense.

Okay, I get that. I guess a better a question would be how do I distinguish between the two?

Solicitation is asking someone to commit a crime. Conspiracy is an agreement to commit a crime. They are separate offenses but if you've committed solicitation you've committed conspiracy once the other person agrees to do what you asked them to do.

Gotcha! Thanks, everyone!!

[chipperjones]

Just did practice MPT. 2 hours to write and then read model. A whopping 0.2%

Are you fucking kidding me?

Does that mean it takes 20 hours to do 2% of the material? Lol

[eloise16]

Just did practice MPT. 2 hours to write and then read model. A whopping 0.2%

Are you fucking kidding me?

Does that mean it takes 20 hours to do 2% of the material? Lol

Haha. I did 3 MPTs in one day last week, took me about 2 and a half hours for each one (writing then reviewing) and it only brought me up to .7%. I walked away for the day because I was going to throw something at my computer screen.

[bartaker2015]

So I lost a few of my pdf lecture notes because it ended up only saving the blank document instead of the filled-out version. Would anyone taking the Texas bar happen to have the lecture notes on your computer for agency, trusts, and commercial paper and be able to send it to me? I would be eternally grateful because I really do not want to have to rewatch the lectures.

[annapach]

As to whether there are repeat MBE questions: yes, I've had a few with the exact same answer (sometimes the same facts with something changed are used, I'm not including those here).

Conspiracy vs. solicitation question:

[+] Spoiler

I had an MBE question where the dude offered to pay money to his brother if his brother killed his wife's boss since he found out she was having an affair. The dude paid the money, the brother did the killing. The question was what charges dude could be charged with. My answer was murder only (because the solicitation charge merges into the murder). But the correct answer was murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

So I understand that conspiracy does not merge into the completed offense. But 1. How is it possible to be charged with both conspiracy and solicitation? and 2. How is this a conspiracy?

Thanks!!

There's an agreement between two people to commit a crime. That's a conspiracy. The fact that one person just paid money is irrelevant, there's still an agreement to commit the crime. Conspiracy never merges with the underlying offense.

Okay, I get that. I guess a better a question would be how do I distinguish between the two?

Solicitation is asking someone to commit a crime. Conspiracy is an agreement to commit a crime. They are separate offenses but if you've committed solicitation you've committed conspiracy once the other person agrees to do what you asked them to do.

Gotcha! Thanks, everyone!!

Sometimes I revert to my non-lawyer mind to remember that conspiracy doesn't merge. Why should it? Actively conspiring and agreeing to commit a crime makes you more culpable than just committing the crime on a whim. It is like a supplemental mens rea + the agreement itself.

[somuchbooty]

Just a con law question that is bugging me...

[+] Spoiler

A state law provided that before an abortion may be performed a woman must (a) have a consultation with a physician, who should try to persuade the woman to have her baby, and (b) wait another 24 hours before seeking an abortion. A woman in the middle of her first trimester of pregnancy challenges the constitutionality of the law.

Would a court be likely to strike down this law?

A: No, because the state’s purpose is not to hinder women’s right to choose abortion, but merely to persuade women to choose birth and to ensure that their decisions are deliberate.

I don't know why, but the fact the doctors are obligated to attempt to persuade (read manipulate) women into not getting an abortion seems like an undue burden.

[sd5289]

Just a con law question that is bugging me...

[+] Spoiler

A state law provided that before an abortion may be performed a woman must (a) have a consultation with a physician, who should try to persuade the woman to have her baby, and (b) wait another 24 hours before seeking an abortion. A woman in the middle of her first trimester of pregnancy challenges the constitutionality of the law.

Would a court be likely to strike down this law?

A: No, because the state’s purpose is not to hinder women’s right to choose abortion, but merely to persuade women to choose birth and to ensure that their decisions are deliberate.

I don't know why, but the fact the doctors are obligated to attempt to persuade (read manipulate) women into not getting an abortion seems like an undue burden.

I've been approaching these by remembering how we got to the "undue burden" test in the first place. After Roe, SCOTUS has done an awesome job of whittling it down, and absent something positively ridiculous (requiring spousal consent = undue burden), it's generally not going to be an undue burden.

[Pleasye]

Just a con law question that is bugging me...

[+] Spoiler

A state law provided that before an abortion may be performed a woman must (a) have a consultation with a physician, who should try to persuade the woman to have her baby, and (b) wait another 24 hours before seeking an abortion. A woman in the middle of her first trimester of pregnancy challenges the constitutionality of the law.

Would a court be likely to strike down this law?

A: No, because the state’s purpose is not to hinder women’s right to choose abortion, but merely to persuade women to choose birth and to ensure that their decisions are deliberate.

I don't know why, but the fact the doctors are obligated to attempt to persuade (read manipulate) women into not getting an abortion seems like an undue burden.

Ha yeah, welcome to the law of abortion. But in all seriousness, the court has pretty much acknowledged that the state interest in abortion is to preserve life, and thus, they are allowed to do things with the express purpose of dissuading women from having abortions. Consultations, pamphlets, showing women pics of dead babies, 24 hour waiting periods. All of that has been deemed not to be an undue burden (even though it totally is). Just memorize the list of stuff that has been deemed okay and not okay (the only thing I can think of that has been not okay is making a woman get her husband's permission) and don't try to think reasonably about it because it's just not.

[Confused7]

Anyone else getting owned by the NY Mixed sets or is it just me?