Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

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kjartan
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby kjartan » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:39 pm

I am STRUGGLING with these conlaw MBE questions rn.

misterjames
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby misterjames » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:52 pm

kjartan wrote:I am STRUGGLING with these conlaw MBE questions rn.


evidence is totally kicking my ass. first sub-60% in a long time. feels bad man.

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milesdavisjd
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby milesdavisjd » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:02 pm

Raiden wrote:I just started Evidence. My goodness I love this man already. He is like the best friend I never had.


Honestly... even though he's kind of monotonous, I found the Evidence lectures to be the most helpful, clear lectures I've done so far (and the only MBE topic I have left is Civ Pro). It helps to play them on 1.5x speed. Those questions at the end of each lectures really bring everything together to get it to stick in your memory.

eloise16
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby eloise16 » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:33 pm

milesdavisjd wrote:
Raiden wrote:I just started Evidence. My goodness I love this man already. He is like the best friend I never had.


Honestly... even though he's kind of monotonous, I found the Evidence lectures to be the most helpful, clear lectures I've done so far (and the only MBE topic I have left is Civ Pro). It helps to play them on 1.5x speed. Those questions at the end of each lectures really bring everything together to get it to stick in your memory.



I can't believe people liked the evidence lectures! I'm glad for y'all! But I couldn't stand him/those lectures. Nothing stuck, and I am hardcore struggling with evidence now as a result. I wish Kramer could teach every single subject -- I would be so much better off.

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sdphill
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby sdphill » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:36 pm

kjartan wrote:I am STRUGGLING with these conlaw MBE questions rn.


I'm struggling with Torts... I'm becoming really irritated with Themis right now. I think it's because of the anxiety and stress of this exam though. :(

smalogna
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby smalogna » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:37 pm

Holy crap Milestone #2 was double or triple the difficulty of #1....or I am lost when it comes to the second set of topics. Probably the latter.

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sdphill
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby sdphill » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:38 pm

eloise16 wrote:
milesdavisjd wrote:
Raiden wrote:I just started Evidence. My goodness I love this man already. He is like the best friend I never had.


Honestly... even though he's kind of monotonous, I found the Evidence lectures to be the most helpful, clear lectures I've done so far (and the only MBE topic I have left is Civ Pro). It helps to play them on 1.5x speed. Those questions at the end of each lectures really bring everything together to get it to stick in your memory.



I can't believe people liked the evidence lectures! I'm glad for y'all! But I couldn't stand him/those lectures. Nothing stuck, and I am hardcore struggling with evidence now as a result. I wish Kramer could teach every single subject -- I would be so much better off.


Ditto for everything you said. Kramer was amazing. Evidence guy was horrible. Struggling with learning the law now because of it.

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zot1
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby zot1 » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:46 pm

zot1 wrote:I decided to do a serious self-evaluation today because I truly feel I'm not being proactive enough in understanding my flaws. I think this is partially due to the fact that I keep feeling that as long as I get the "target goal," I'm doing okay.

Anyhow, for essays, my flaw cannot be fixed right this second. My biggest problem comes down to rule statements--how complete and accurate they are. I will be working soon on how to improve memorization.

For MBEs, I noticed I take too little time going through the questions. So I decided to take longer, specially to discard answers that are wrong based on how they're written. This resulted in two consecutive MBE PQs in the mid 70s. It is not amazing, I know, but it is an improvement for me. I will see if this holds true tomorrow during the Milestone Exam.

And an unrelated, but much necessary comment, after I stopped thinking that the Best Evidence Rule was "always the incorrect answer," I nailed all my BER related questions. I actually now think this was a typo, and they meant BER is always the "correct" answer. But who knows?


Got a 70% exactly. So happy! But I know I need to keep improving. Now feeling too drained. Why do we have to do the milestone MBEs and MEEs on the same day. Ugh.

Confused7
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Confused7 » Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:09 pm

Anyone know what percentage we're supposed to be aiming for on the Milestones for now?

EDIT: nvm, saw their message from a few days ago saying we should be approaching 60% correct on the MBEs.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby zot1 » Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:37 pm

Confused7 wrote:Anyone know what percentage we're supposed to be aiming for on the Milestones for now?

EDIT: nvm, saw their message from a few days ago saying we should be approaching 60% correct on the MBEs.


I was hoping the goal was just 50% still at this point. I did not get the message you did btw, so thanks for posting this.

Confused7
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Confused7 » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:56 pm

zot1 wrote:
Confused7 wrote:Anyone know what percentage we're supposed to be aiming for on the Milestones for now?

EDIT: nvm, saw their message from a few days ago saying we should be approaching 60% correct on the MBEs.


I was hoping the goal was just 50% still at this point. I did not get the message you did btw, so thanks for posting this.


I just checked and the message was from June 18th, titled "Graded Essay #4 and Milestone Exam#2." It had a small section for MBE FAQs:

MBE FAQs & Advice:

What is the current target to shoot for on MBE questions at this point in the course?


A good scaled score on the MBE is 135+. The raw score range that can yield a 135 or higher is dependent upon the difficulty of the exam and how many questions are discarded (if any). 62-65% correct would be an excellent score (that's about 125-130 questions correct). At this point in your studies, you should be approaching 60% correct. However, if you are not caught up with your MBE PQs, your current performance is likely below your potential. Rest assured that you will improve significantly between now and the actual MBE. Also, remember that it is typical to have a couple of very strong subjects and a couple of weaker subjects - you want to concern yourself with the overall percentage correct.

How do I improve my MBE score?

Focus on your incorrect responses and those that you’ve answered correctly, but with low confidence. Ask yourself the following: (1) Did I know the law? (2) Was I misled by the fact pattern / did I misidentify the key issue? (3) Was I seduced by an attractive wrong answer? (4) Why did I pass over the correct answer?

Furthermore, look for patterns in your answer process. Some students pass over the correct answer because they find a better answer once they review all choices. Some students decide on an answer too quickly before thoroughly considering all choices.

There is no magic, universally-applicable rule to help you improve, as each of you has a different process and falls prey to different mistakes. However, the starting point for improvement is self-analysis. If you have not been asking all of the above questions, start doing so now, as you review each set of PQs. If you think of the correct answer but pass it over time after time, try going with your first instinct. If your first instinct is always wrong, try reviewing the fact pattern in light of the other answers (albeit a more dangerous approach).

Remember, the wrong answers are designed to distract you. The road to the correct answer is in the fact pattern itself. Thus, if you are completely unable to anticipate the correct answer before looking through the choices, you need to spend more time reviewing the fact pattern. You want to have some sense of what the correct answer should be before you attempt to find it; try to arrive at the answer prior to looking through the answer choices—if you see a choice that corresponds to what you are thinking, select it and move on. If there is no choice related to what you were thinking, you likely missed something. Go back. You are not looking for the perfect legally-correct answer; instead, you looking for the BEST answer of the four potentially-flawed choices with which the examiners have presented you.


Though I just did a civ pro MBE after doing Milestone #2 and the Goal was still 50%!

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kjartan
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby kjartan » Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:07 pm

I like this Jeffries guy in spite of the odd way he pronounces "defendant"

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zot1
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby zot1 » Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:22 pm

Confused7 wrote:
zot1 wrote:
Confused7 wrote:Anyone know what percentage we're supposed to be aiming for on the Milestones for now?

EDIT: nvm, saw their message from a few days ago saying we should be approaching 60% correct on the MBEs.


I was hoping the goal was just 50% still at this point. I did not get the message you did btw, so thanks for posting this.


I just checked and the message was from June 18th, titled "Graded Essay #4 and Milestone Exam#2." It had a small section for MBE FAQs:

MBE FAQs & Advice:

What is the current target to shoot for on MBE questions at this point in the course?


A good scaled score on the MBE is 135+. The raw score range that can yield a 135 or higher is dependent upon the difficulty of the exam and how many questions are discarded (if any). 62-65% correct would be an excellent score (that's about 125-130 questions correct). At this point in your studies, you should be approaching 60% correct. However, if you are not caught up with your MBE PQs, your current performance is likely below your potential. Rest assured that you will improve significantly between now and the actual MBE. Also, remember that it is typical to have a couple of very strong subjects and a couple of weaker subjects - you want to concern yourself with the overall percentage correct.

How do I improve my MBE score?

Focus on your incorrect responses and those that you’ve answered correctly, but with low confidence. Ask yourself the following: (1) Did I know the law? (2) Was I misled by the fact pattern / did I misidentify the key issue? (3) Was I seduced by an attractive wrong answer? (4) Why did I pass over the correct answer?

Furthermore, look for patterns in your answer process. Some students pass over the correct answer because they find a better answer once they review all choices. Some students decide on an answer too quickly before thoroughly considering all choices.

There is no magic, universally-applicable rule to help you improve, as each of you has a different process and falls prey to different mistakes. However, the starting point for improvement is self-analysis. If you have not been asking all of the above questions, start doing so now, as you review each set of PQs. If you think of the correct answer but pass it over time after time, try going with your first instinct. If your first instinct is always wrong, try reviewing the fact pattern in light of the other answers (albeit a more dangerous approach).

Remember, the wrong answers are designed to distract you. The road to the correct answer is in the fact pattern itself. Thus, if you are completely unable to anticipate the correct answer before looking through the choices, you need to spend more time reviewing the fact pattern. You want to have some sense of what the correct answer should be before you attempt to find it; try to arrive at the answer prior to looking through the answer choices—if you see a choice that corresponds to what you are thinking, select it and move on. If there is no choice related to what you were thinking, you likely missed something. Go back. You are not looking for the perfect legally-correct answer; instead, you looking for the BEST answer of the four potentially-flawed choices with which the examiners have presented you.


Though I just did a civ pro MBE after doing Milestone #2 and the Goal was still 50%!


Yeah I went through my email and no messages around that date and the ones I do have don't mention that info.

This makes my 50ish% MBEs from not long ago seem terrible :/

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby zot1 » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:55 pm

zot1 wrote:
Confused7 wrote:Anyone know what percentage we're supposed to be aiming for on the Milestones for now?

EDIT: nvm, saw their message from a few days ago saying we should be approaching 60% correct on the MBEs.


I was hoping the goal was just 50% still at this point. I did not get the message you did btw, so thanks for posting this.


Before you posted this I had emailed Themis to ask about it. Their answer was that we want to get the average or above it because the exams are curved. So the further ahead from the curve, the better.

This somehow doesn't help me all that much...

adevine39
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby adevine39 » Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:28 pm

zot1 wrote:
zot1 wrote:
Confused7 wrote:Anyone know what percentage we're supposed to be aiming for on the Milestones for now?

EDIT: nvm, saw their message from a few days ago saying we should be approaching 60% correct on the MBEs.


I was hoping the goal was just 50% still at this point. I did not get the message you did btw, so thanks for posting this.


Before you posted this I had emailed Themis to ask about it. Their answer was that we want to get the average or above it because the exams are curved. So the further ahead from the curve, the better.

This somehow doesn't help me all that much...


This is what I have been trying to tell myself. If I am in the heard, so to speak, I'm good. I don't want to be at the top, I just want to pass. After Milestone Exam #2, it seems I'm munching grass right next to most of you guys, so I'm doing my best to feel ok with this and trust the system I've paid for.

adevine39
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby adevine39 » Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:32 pm

Nevermind. I just saw that the NY Practice outline is 140. Back to freak out mode.

Underoath
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Underoath » Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:56 pm

Soooooooo I am way far behind and still trying to perfect a method to figure out how to memorize all these rules.

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zot1
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby zot1 » Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:59 pm

adevine39 wrote:Nevermind. I just saw that the NY Practice outline is 140. Back to freak out mode.


Nah, don't freak out. Honestly, the people I knew who failed the bar always seemed the most overwhelmed. I have also noticed that on days where I'm the least stressed, I tend to do better. So keep your cool. So many people have gone through this and passed, we can too--we will too.

henry flower
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby henry flower » Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:19 am

eloise16 wrote:
henry flower wrote:What exactly is "insufficient process" as opposed to "insufficient SERVICE of process"? Notice and opportunity to be heard?

Unrelated: is there any way to "stop the clock" for the essay Qs? I would really like to print out the question so I can mark it up, etc. before I start answering. And being able to do so seems especially critical when the essay question involves a PDF "extract" (a statutory supplement, basically, for those whose jurisdictions do not have these annoying things) that must be downloaded AS THE CLOCK COUNTS DOWN. It would be nice to be able to do these under real exam conditions.


I print out all of my essays by copy and pasting them into a different word document where I write out my answer and copy and paste back into the submission box. I also print the question because it helps me to be able to mark up the page -- I think we'll have hard copies of the questions during the actual exam right? Anyway, copy and pasting into a word doc and printing takes me about 3-4 minutes of very valuable essay time, so I ran into the same problem as you. However, at least on my browser (I use Safari), if I switch to a different tab that is non-themis (like gmail or something), the essay clock will pause momentarily. After I copy to a word document and print it out, I go back to the Themis essay tab and resume the timed essay. Hope this helps!


That's actually a huge help. I was doing cut-and-paste before, but hated the time-suck on the graded essay, and print-and-pause more or less solves that problem. Thanks!

henry flower
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby henry flower » Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:42 am

Just wanted to share my basic strategy for using Themis:

    1. Before I jump into a new topic, I skim the final review outline (if available), just to see what's being covered. If there isn't a final review outline (i.e., if it's a non-MBE subject), I just skim the TOC for the main outline. And when I mean skim, I mean it: I don't spend more than a few minutes here.
    2. Next, I watch a small cluster (2-4) of lecture videos on a related topic (for example, I watched all of the videos on federalism together). So far, I've been able to watch them all at double-speed, filling out and highlighting (if I'm allowed to by the PDF!) the "handout" as I go along.
    3. Then, I read the outline related to what I just read, with the state-specific "distinctions" outline alongside the main outline for MBE subjects. I highlight important points from the lecture and unexpected or unfamiliar things as I read AND (critically) annotate the main outline with the key state-specific distinctions.
    4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until I'm finished with a subject.
    5. After I'm done with the subject, I watch the state-specific distinctions lecture (if applicable) and complete the handout.
    6. Then, I mark all of the outlines complete.
    7. Next, I do the first two sets of MBE practice questions for that subject in "Interactive Mode." I create a word document for each subject called "[Subject] MBEs." Anytime I get a question wrong or (critically) get a question right but have any uncertainty about the rule, I cut and paste the pertinent parts of the Answer/Explanation into the document, using headings that include the Q # and a brief description that refreshes my memory about the question or (for more straightforward "I didn't know that rule" situations) states the topic. Those documents have been my most helpful study tool.
    8. Then, I review the handout and the "[Subject] MBEs" documents.
    9. Next, I go to the third set of MBEs. I do these in "Test Mode," so I don't know what I got wrong until I'm done. However, I still carefully review the answers and add them to the "[Subject] MBEs" document.


It's nothing revolutionary, but it took me a little while to figure this out so I thought I would share. Following the Themis "tasks" and trying to read 40+ pages of a really dense outline at a time with no context was simply not working at all (I just don't have the attention span and the outlines are not well-written) and approaching the state-specific stuff separately just seemed really inefficient. Doing it this way, I not only retain more info, but I can really zoom through the substantive topics as well.

texlaw
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby texlaw » Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:03 am

henry flower wrote:Just wanted to share my basic strategy for using Themis:

    1. Before I jump into a new topic, I skim the final review outline (if available), just to see what's being covered. If there isn't a final review outline (i.e., if it's a non-MBE subject), I just skim the TOC for the main outline. And when I mean skim, I mean it: I don't spend more than a few minutes here.
    2. Next, I watch a small cluster (2-4) of lecture videos on a related topic (for example, I watched all of the videos on federalism together). So far, I've been able to watch them all at double-speed, filling out and highlighting (if I'm allowed to by the PDF!) the "handout" as I go along.
    3. Then, I read the outline related to what I just read, with the state-specific "distinctions" outline alongside the main outline for MBE subjects. I highlight important points from the lecture and unexpected or unfamiliar things as I read AND (critically) annotate the main outline with the key state-specific distinctions.
    4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until I'm finished with a subject.
    5. After I'm done with the subject, I watch the state-specific distinctions lecture (if applicable) and complete the handout.
    6. Then, I mark all of the outlines complete.
    7. Next, I do the first two sets of MBE practice questions for that subject in "Interactive Mode." I create a word document for each subject called "[Subject] MBEs." Anytime I get a question wrong or (critically) get a question right but have any uncertainty about the rule, I cut and paste the pertinent parts of the Answer/Explanation into the document, using headings that include the Q # and a brief description that refreshes my memory about the question or (for more straightforward "I didn't know that rule" situations) states the topic. Those documents have been my most helpful study tool.
    8. Then, I review the handout and the "[Subject] MBEs" documents.
    9. Next, I go to the third set of MBEs. I do these in "Test Mode," so I don't know what I got wrong until I'm done. However, I still carefully review the answers and add them to the "[Subject] MBEs" document.


It's nothing revolutionary, but it took me a little while to figure this out so I thought I would share. Following the Themis "tasks" and trying to read 40+ pages of a really dense outline at a time with no context was simply not working at all (I just don't have the attention span and the outlines are not well-written) and approaching the state-specific stuff separately just seemed really inefficient. Doing it this way, I not only retain more info, but I can really zoom through the substantive topics as well.


Thanks for sharing! I actually did receive final review outlines for the non-MBE subjects in my Themis inbox as a zip file. You should be receiving them too if you haven't already.

Velours
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby Velours » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:22 pm

I'm a couple days behind but this week has a brutal schedule for me. Today has 5 sets of 34 questions and a review of Evidence, Civ Pro, Crim/Pro and Con. The rest of the week has 7-9 items each day but next week there's multiple days with only one assignment. I don't get it.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby sd5289 » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:39 pm

Civ Pro Erie question.

[+] Spoiler
The producer of an organic pet food shipped his products nationwide. His business and production offices were located in State A, the state in which he lived. After one pet owner’s animal became sick due to toxins that had leaked into the producer’s production supply, the owner filed a lawsuit in federal district court based on diversity jurisdiction in State B, the state in which he lived. A federal food regulation act governed the processes for how nutrition, including that applicable to animals, should be regulated. The producer did not meet those regulations, but did meet the lower standards required by State B. If the district court applied the State B statute, the producer would be absolved of any liability. Must the district court enforce the federal statute?

Correct answer: Yes, because the federal statute regulates nutrition as it relates to pets.

This seems completely wrong to me as it's a substantive issue in a diversity suit. The only thing I can think of is that the question doesn't specifically state this is a state law claim, ergo it's a federal question based on the federal statute, but why go through the whole diversity explanation then? Was that just a red herring that I fell for?


Thanks in advance!

always_raining
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby always_raining » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:47 pm

sd5289 wrote:Civ Pro Erie question.

[+] Spoiler
The producer of an organic pet food shipped his products nationwide. His business and production offices were located in State A, the state in which he lived. After one pet owner’s animal became sick due to toxins that had leaked into the producer’s production supply, the owner filed a lawsuit in federal district court based on diversity jurisdiction in State B, the state in which he lived. A federal food regulation act governed the processes for how nutrition, including that applicable to animals, should be regulated. The producer did not meet those regulations, but did meet the lower standards required by State B. If the district court applied the State B statute, the producer would be absolved of any liability. Must the district court enforce the federal statute?

Correct answer: Yes, because the federal statute regulates nutrition as it relates to pets.

This seems completely wrong to me as it's a substantive issue in a diversity suit. The only thing I can think of is that the question doesn't specifically state this is a state law claim, ergo it's a federal question based on the federal statute, but why go through the whole diversity explanation then? Was that just a red herring that I fell for?


Thanks in advance!


It's kind of a red herring. Typically, an Erie analysis occurs when there is no federal law because Congress cannot or has not legislated in that area. In Erie, the court below applied "federal common law" (i.e., made-up federal law). Here, Congress has specifically legislated on a topic and so that trumps state law. Hope that helps!

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zot1
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam

Postby zot1 » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:04 pm

Velours wrote:I'm a couple days behind but this week has a brutal schedule for me. Today has 5 sets of 34 questions and a review of Evidence, Civ Pro, Crim/Pro and Con. The rest of the week has 7-9 items each day but next week there's multiple days with only one assignment. I don't get it.


That's not bad! I have like 5-8 assignments for the foreseeable future.




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