taking two bars??

mrs_featherbottom
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taking two bars??

Postby mrs_featherbottom » Sun May 03, 2015 12:00 pm

Anyone considering taking two bar exams at the same time?? How hard is it to take a 2nd bar exam a few years later?

dudders
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Re: taking two bars??

Postby dudders » Sun May 03, 2015 12:13 pm

What states you want is probably a big part of this question, as there's only a handful you can combine in one sitting.

How easy it is to take a second bar exam later kind of also depends of what job you have and how much time you'll be able to devote to studying.

underthirty
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Re: taking two bars??

Postby underthirty » Sun May 03, 2015 2:25 pm

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Last edited by underthirty on Sat May 30, 2015 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: taking two bars??

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun May 03, 2015 2:32 pm

Bar exams are competency tests. It's not hard to take two or more exams even if separated by a few years. As a side note, once you practice for 5 or more years in one jurisdiction, many other jurisdictions offer an abbreviated bar exam for attorneys. And, of course, in UBE (Uniform Bar Exam) jurisdictions, one sits for 13 different state bars at the same time.

dudders
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Re: taking two bars??

Postby dudders » Sun May 03, 2015 3:07 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Bar exams are competency tests. It's not hard to take two or more exams even if separated by a few years. As a side note, once you practice for 5 or more years in one jurisdiction, many other jurisdictions offer an abbreviated bar exam for attorneys. And, of course, in UBE (Uniform Bar Exam) jurisdictions, one sits for 13 different state bars at the same time.


It's not 100% accurate that when you take UBE you sit for all jurisdictions at the same time. (I think it's 14 now?) These states all use the SAME exam, there is no state-specific law on it. All UBE jurisdictions I know only let you apply in one state at a time and take the exam in that state. Once you pass you can usually apply to waive in to other UBE states, however different states do have different passing scores, and certain time requirements. You need to look specifically at each state's requirements because every state is different.

(E.g., I took CO in July 2013 and passed. I don't remember my score, but CO requires a 276 and WY requires a 270, so apparently I have a high enough score to transfer. WY will let me apply to transfer my July 2013 UBE score as long as I have a passing UBE and MPRE score within the three years preceding application. You still have to pay and go through that state's C&F, etc. If I let three years go by, Wyoming doesn't take applications on motion (experienced attorneys who don't need to test) until 5 years (I need practice in good standing for five of the last seven years). So 0-3 years = UBE transfer, 5+ years = motion, and if you fall into the no man's land of 3-5 years = you have to take the bar exam again.)

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rinkrat19
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Re: taking two bars??

Postby rinkrat19 » Sun May 03, 2015 3:10 pm

I had a brief thought of taking both OR and WA this summer, but obviously realized right away that they're on the same day. If it gets close to the February WA bar application deadline and I still don't have a job, I might consider signing up for WA.

CanadianWolf
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Re: taking two bars??

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon May 04, 2015 12:44 pm

Whether the UBE now covers 13 or 14 jurisdictions, one is sitting for that many bar exams at the same time. The individual states have their own score requirements, score "transfer" fees & bar dues, MPRE requirement, C&F certification & length of time for which the test score is valid.

CanadianWolf
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Re: taking two bars??

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon May 04, 2015 12:49 pm

@Dudders: What do you mean by "waive into" their state bars ? It is NOT a waiver; it is a score transfer. When you sit for the UBE in one jurisdiction, you are essentially sitting for a bar exam score which is valid for all 13 or 14 UBE states within their stated score requirements & time limits (which vary from about 18 months--one may be only 12 months--to 5 years).

CanadianWolf
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Re: taking two bars??

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon May 04, 2015 1:02 pm

Dudders post above needs clarification.

It should be noted that Dudders example is only for Colorado & Wyoming. Also, Wyoming has an unusually restrictive MPRE test date requirement that requires a motion to that state's supreme court for an exemption if one fails to meet the Wyoming MPRE test time limits.

The period of between 3 & 5 years in his example has little relevance to a discussion of the UBE as any licensed attorney with at least 5 years experience & other requirements can apply for admission on motion (or by abbreviated attorney's exam in many jurisdictions)' Also, several UBE states allow consider the bar exam test score eligible for 5 years as a transfer score (Arizona, for example.)

CanadianWolf
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Re: taking two bars??

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon May 04, 2015 1:12 pm

The Uniform Bar Exam (UBE) covers 14 jurisdictions.

Alaska 280
Idaho 280

Colorado 276

Arizona 273

Montana 270
Nebraska 270
New Hampshire 270
Utah 270
Washington 270
Wyoming 270

Minnesota 260
Missouri 260
North Dakota 260

Alabama 256

Scores remain valid for anywhere from 18 months (Utah but for 5 years if in the full-time practice of law during that period) to 5 years (Arizona, Alaska & Nebraska) depending upon the particular jurisdiction & other circumstances.

CanadianWolf
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Re: taking two bars??

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon May 04, 2015 1:25 pm

A couple of years ago, I did a score conversion chart for, if I recall correctly, 31 (of course, this doesn't include the current 14 UBE states) different US states (5 states have scoring systems that don't lend themselves to conversion). Delaware remains the most difficult bar exam, with California second.

NON-UBE jurisdictions:

Delaware converted to a 290.
California converted to a 288.
Oregon converted to a 284.'
Virginia converted to a 280.
North Carolina converted to a 276.8.
Maine converted to a 276.
Rhode Island converted to a 276.
Florida converted to a 272.
Pennsylvania converted to a 272.
Maryland converted to a 270.6.
Arkansas converted to a 270.
Georgia 270.
Massachusetts 270.
Michigan 270.
Ohio 270.
Oklahoma 270.
Tennessee 270.
Texas 270.
West Virginia 270.
Hawaii 268.
District of Columbia 266.
Iowa 266.
Kansas 266.
New Jersey 266.
New York 266.
Illinois 264.
Connecticutt 264.
Indiana 264.
Mississippi 264.
New Mexico 260.
South Dakota 260.
Wisconsin 258.
Guam 265.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Mon May 04, 2015 1:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.

stendhal
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Re: taking two bars??

Postby stendhal » Mon May 04, 2015 1:29 pm

They're not "competency tests." That's what people who make money off of this hazing process want you to think. They're "how diversified was your coursework and how much memorization did you cram into the weeks before the exam(s)" tests.

I'll echo that MA/NY and NJ/NY are common combinations; CT/MA and CT/NJ are also done by some people . Of those, MA/NY would be the hardest because they both go beyond what you need to know for the MBE to a greater degree than the others. CT/NJ would be on the opposite end.

I would avoid taking two at once unless at least a couple of the following are true: You've done coursework in all of the tested subjects for both states, you're great at rote memorization and regurgitation, you don't get significant test anxiety, you already know from practice tests that you can kill the MBE, you will not have something like a job or moving preventing you from studying a few hundred hours in the relevant timeframe.

Oh, and you should also be able to restrain yourself from glaring at the well-meaning proctor who, at the end of state #1 day, incorrectly tells you that you're "halfway done :D !"

CanadianWolf
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Re: taking two bars??

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon May 04, 2015 1:38 pm

Stendhal: You have it backwards; bar prep profiteers want you to believe that bar exams are more than just mere "competency tests".

stendhal
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Re: taking two bars??

Postby stendhal » Mon May 04, 2015 2:20 pm

CanadianWolf:
What NCBE et al want us to believe is that there is any construct validity to these tests whatsoever and that recent declines in pass rates have to do with us being idiots rather than other factors (law schools actually teaching lawyering skills, the Great Softest Debacle of July 2014, the lack of information provided before adoption of the Civ Pro portion of the MBE, the desire to decrease pass rates so as to increase revenue, etc).

dudders
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Re: taking two bars??

Postby dudders » Mon May 04, 2015 10:08 pm

dudders wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Bar exams are competency tests. It's not hard to take two or more exams even if separated by a few years. As a side note, once you practice for 5 or more years in one jurisdiction, many other jurisdictions offer an abbreviated bar exam for attorneys. And, of course, in UBE (Uniform Bar Exam) jurisdictions, one sits for 13 different state bars at the same time.


It's not 100% accurate that when you take UBE you sit for all jurisdictions at the same time. (I think it's 14 now?) These states all use the SAME exam, there is no state-specific law on it. All UBE jurisdictions I know only let you apply in one state at a time and take the exam in that state. Once you pass you can usually apply to waive in to other UBE states, however different states do have different passing scores, and certain time requirements. You need to look specifically at each state's requirements because every state is different.

(E.g., I took CO in July 2013 and passed. I don't remember my score, but CO requires a 276 and WY requires a 270, so apparently I have a high enough score to transfer. WY will let me apply to transfer my July 2013 UBE score as long as I have a passing UBE and MPRE score within the three years preceding application. You still have to pay and go through that state's C&F, etc. If I let three years go by, Wyoming doesn't take applications on motion (experienced attorneys who don't need to test) until 5 years (I need practice in good standing for five of the last seven years). So 0-3 years = UBE transfer, 5+ years = motion, and if you fall into the no man's land of 3-5 years = you have to take the bar exam again.)



Holy crap.

I think we're all just using the same words to describe the same thing. When I read "one sits for 13 different state bars at the same time," I thought OP (or others who haven't yet gone through the bar) would read that as: you can take the bar in all 13 states at once and get into all states at that time.

I always understood "waive" or "waiving" in as slang, more or less, basically mean you can get in without taking the bar again. I don't really see much of a difference between score transfer or on motion in terms of semantics.

I was just trying to clarify that, yes, it's the same bar EXAM, but you're not taking for more than one state simultaneously. I mean "waive" in generally to mean you can apply later to other states without taking the test again (provided you meet the requirements). Everyone in DC called calling "waiving in" because you can get into DC once you pass any state without the waiting period most other jurisdictions require. If people out there think the word "waive" is restricted only to experienced attorney on motion applications and I'm a complete moron, well, there's that.

And all I did was give a Wyoming/Colorado example to show that it's not "you take this test and you can get into 13/14 states right now if you want and forever if you want" - OP needs to look at specific states and requirements.




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