July 2015 California Bar Exam

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robinhoodOO
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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby robinhoodOO » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:56 am

6TimeFailure wrote:
BrokenMouse wrote:
I was re-evaluated and got WILDLY fluctuating scores 3 of which were lower, 3 of which were higher all evening out. One of them went from 75 to 60. Like literally HIGH PASS to FAIL. What the flying fuck is this.


That's totally bizarre. I did not know they can give lower grades on re-evaluation.


It's my understanding that you get a 'fresh' re-score and then its averaged with your initial score. It's inconsequential whether the re-score is higher or lower.

Thus, if at first look you get a 75, and then you get a 60 on the re-score, you're new score is 67.5 for that essay. It absolutely sucks, but it's entirely possible you could go from nearly passing to being far from a pass.

That said, a difference of 15 points is absolutely INSANE. There is absolutely no reason two qualified bar graders should come up with grades that wildly different for a single essay. It tells me one of two things: (1) They're grading is too subjective and they need to work with graders in this area or alter how they do re-grading or (2) They employ varying standards on re-grades (i.e. grade more harshly). A friend of mine had a similar experience getting screwed on his re-grade from this exam. It sucks

heartsonfire
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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby heartsonfire » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:04 am

Underoath wrote:I didn't pass. I knew I didn't after that third day though. Took Themis. Called about their guarantee free course review. Got the same response about someone calling me back within 24 hours.

Oh well....life moves on. Just trying to figure out how to study with a full time job now. Hmmm.


i did that on this past first try with July... took a job in June and studied with a 50/hr a week job and failed... wouldn't recommend it :cry:

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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby a male human » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:31 am

robinhoodOO wrote:
6TimeFailure wrote:
BrokenMouse wrote:
I was re-evaluated and got WILDLY fluctuating scores 3 of which were lower, 3 of which were higher all evening out. One of them went from 75 to 60. Like literally HIGH PASS to FAIL. What the flying fuck is this.


That's totally bizarre. I did not know they can give lower grades on re-evaluation.


It's my understanding that you get a 'fresh' re-score and then its averaged with your initial score. It's inconsequential whether the re-score is higher or lower.

Thus, if at first look you get a 75, and then you get a 60 on the re-score, you're new score is 67.5 for that essay. It absolutely sucks, but it's entirely possible you could go from nearly passing to being far from a pass.

That said, a difference of 15 points is absolutely INSANE. There is absolutely no reason two qualified bar graders should come up with grades that wildly different for a single essay. It tells me one of two things: (1) They're grading is too subjective and they need to work with graders in this area or alter how they do re-grading or (2) They employ varying standards on re-grades (i.e. grade more harshly). A friend of mine had a similar experience getting screwed on his re-grade from this exam. It sucks

Yeah, it's pretty messed up that they don't give you the better score, when you're being re-graded because of a possibly too-low score in the first place. If you'd gotten the higher score there would have been no re-grade.

Goes to show you that you have to hit the grader with what they want to see in the span of 2-3 minutes, with heavy organization. It's like making your resume easy as fuk to read.

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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby BrokenMouse » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:46 am

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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby BrokenMouse » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:50 am

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MarcZero
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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby MarcZero » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:45 am

BrokenMouse wrote:
6TimeFailure wrote:
BrokenMouse wrote:
I was re-evaluated and got WILDLY fluctuating scores 3 of which were lower, 3 of which were higher all evening out. One of them went from 75 to 60. Like literally HIGH PASS to FAIL. What the flying fuck is this.


That's totally bizarre. I did not know they can give lower grades on re-evaluation.


u better believe it. they average out the scores with the lower 2nd read. i have 0 incentive to bullshit anonymously on tls fail thread


The rules say if there is a score difference between the first two graders of more than 10 points, there is supposed to be a "supervisor" read that makes a final call and wipes out the average score. Make sure you got that supervisor read on that essay, or perhaps the supervisor also happened to put you in the middle of that score-wise.

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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby catechumen » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:15 am

This is why we need to do something about this. Scores that change that much tell you the test is flawed. Everyone knows that this test is not fair. The problem is no one wants to do anything about it. We need to lobby our elected officials to fix this. The jerks at the Bar don't want to help us. They spend a few minutes per essay to grade these things, and pay the graders a couple of bucks or so to do it. All while the exam costs us almost a grand, not counting traveling and lodging. What in the world? Where is the money going? Something is wrong here. It's not like renting a desk for three days is that expensive. Their management of my almost 1k seems wasteful. We don't even get an explanation as to our grades!

We are some of the most educated people in the state. Why have we not organized and told these dirt bags this is not acceptable. The line must be drawn here, no farther. The state legislature has the power to cut these jerks funding, or better yet take the authority out of their hands entirely. The time to take a stand is now!

Here is the contact for the Governor's office. He flunked the exam the first time. Perhaps he might understand that this needs to end. If even a couple of dozen of us send angry emails complaining about this they will take notice. Spend 2 minutes and write a message. I am game if you guys are.

Incidentally, my friends that worked as staffers told me that for every message they got, they assumed that 1000 others at least felt the same way. It won't take much to get noticed. 1 lone nut won't get noticed, but 10 will. Perhaps some sort of inquiry into the exam will get the Bar to actually do something about it. A pass rate in the 40's, give me a break!

https://govnews.ca.gov/gov39mail/mail.php



BrokenMouse wrote:
Worker and Parasite wrote:
6TimeFailure wrote:
Worker and Parasite wrote:I got my scores and I got annihilated on the essays. But the MBE was where I shined. I was also 4 points away from passing so COME ON THROW ME A BONE HERE



In my opinion they should not fail you if you just came 4 points short. That is cruel.

I thought for "close calls", the bar will evaluate all the answers as a "whole" to determine if the applicant should pass (the whole being more than the sum of its parts). Is that not done anymore?


I was re-evaluated by my essays but it didn't help. I know of someone who didn't pass in another state by 2 points and there was no appeals process.


I was re-evaluated and got WILDLY fluctuating scores 3 of which were lower, 3 of which were higher all evening out. One of them went from 75 to 60. Like literally HIGH PASS to FAIL. What the flying fuck is this.
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BrokenMouse
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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby BrokenMouse » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:15 am

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Zaizei
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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby Zaizei » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:20 am

Can someone tell me if a total scaled score of 1338.8117 is too low? Should I leave the idea of studying for the Bar Exam? Help!

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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby Biotech » Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:51 am

July 2014 I got a 1436
February 2015 I got a 1437 - if my re-read scores weren't averaged, I would have passed.

I don't have my scores back from this one but I failed again. 3 points, 30 it's all a fail.

I can't study any harder smarter better analyze my weaknesses anymore than I've done the last two years. The struggle is real.

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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby BrokenMouse » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:39 am

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petsoundspop
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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby petsoundspop » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:54 am

BrokenMouse wrote:Key is passing 1440 on the first read. Reread is auto fail. They will not award u a higher grade. Of the 6 only 1 had 60 to 65. Anytime they average it ur done.

So read example essays and learn to use header like hell. Im sure the 2nd reader cocksucker who gave 60 on a 75 first read just skimmed and never read it carefully.


That's brutal man, I'm truly sorry. 75 and 60 for the same answer is just insane.

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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby Notorious RBG » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:41 pm

BrokenMouse wrote:Key is passing 1440 on the first read. Reread is auto fail. They will not award u a higher grade. Of the 6 only 1 had 60 to 65. Anytime they average it ur done.

So read example essays and learn to use header like hell. Im sure the 2nd reader cocksucker who gave 60 on a 75 first read just skimmed and never read it carefully.


The re-read is a total crock of shit. A.TOTAL.CROCK.OF.SHIT.

We've discussed this on this forum before. If you don't pass on the first go, it is virtually impossible to pass. Think about it. It's not the same grader that reads all of your essays and PTs the first time. It's a different grader for each. The second round of graders would have to arbitrarily all score pretty much all of your essays higher, and by a lot since the two scores are averaged anyway. To bring a 55 to a passing average of 65, you'd have to get a 75 on the second read. NOT LIKELY. Given the subjective nature of grading it's pretty clear that upon re-read, it's pretty much a 50/50 shot whether the grade will go up and down.

If you are sent to re-read that means your scores are below 1440. So for re-read to help anyone at all, the second read overall would have to be high enough to average with the first read to over 1440 which is an IMPOSSIBLY high bar.

The re-read is to give people a consolation prize so they keep taking it without feeling totally inept. Like oh hey good job you got into re-read! You were so close we had to read it again! No. I really really really want to know how many individuals pass after being re-read. Conveniently, they caution, "if you pass and you were re-read, you'll never know!" Yeah right.

If this test were given to mathematicians they wouldn't stand for this kind of grading. It's nonsensical.

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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby Notorious RBG » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:48 pm

I want to re-iterate a point I previously made here, which is, if they're going to re-read, they should only assign a second score if it is higher. If not, then just leave it alone. This way they are actually giving a slight bump to people who were really really close and will probably pass next time anyway, sparing us all the expense and heartache. Like if you're over 1420, we re-read your essays and assign a higher score if it merits it.

This test is cruel.

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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby a male human » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:25 pm

Notorious RBG wrote:I want to re-iterate a point I previously made here, which is, if they're going to re-read, they should only assign a second score if it is higher. If not, then just leave it alone. This way they are actually giving a slight bump to people who were really really close and will probably pass next time anyway, sparing us all the expense and heartache. Like if you're over 1420, we re-read your essays and assign a higher score if it merits it.

This test is cruel.

But that would make too much sense for these guys

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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby BrokenMouse » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:40 pm

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Notorious RBG
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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby Notorious RBG » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:46 pm

BrokenMouse wrote:
Notorious RBG wrote:I want to re-iterate a point I previously made here, which is, if they're going to re-read, they should only assign a second score if it is higher. If not, then just leave it alone. This way they are actually giving a slight bump to people who were really really close and will probably pass next time anyway, sparing us all the expense and heartache. Like if you're over 1420, we re-read your essays and assign a higher score if it merits it.

This test is cruel.


I can confirm. Basically because 5 of the reread essays were on average 5 points lower (and 1 of them being 15 points lower, from 75-->60) the 2nd read averaged scores were lower than my first read. What the shit is this?

There are so many blatant instances of bar grader simply NOT READING my essay that I now feel it's just all a game of using headings and clearly labeling in bold underline letters what the issue is. 5 fucking points on the PT I would have passed.


That's exactly where I was last time, on my third try. 5 more points on a PT and I would have passed. Seriously it is BS you got a 50. Your writing on this board is better than a 50.

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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby BrokenMouse » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:02 pm

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zenotheelder
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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby zenotheelder » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:16 pm

So I'll offer my experience for what it's worth. I took the CA bar exam for the first time July 2015 and failed. My total scaled score was 1422. The reread (with all its ups and downs) raised my score by only 5 raw written points. My "operant grade" was a fail for every essay (total scaled written was 1331).

What's interesting though is my MBE score was pretty high (scaled 1591). It was high enough that, even though I failed every essay, I still almost passed overall.

So, in addition to learning that the graders grade very hard on the essays, and that needs to be adjusted for, the MBE can make a huge difference. I kind of already knew this, which is why I focused more of my limited study time this summer on the MBE, instead of the essays. I think this is also why there is such a low pass rate on the attorney exam. Attorneys should consider the general exam instead, depending on how well they do at multiple choice.

What surprised me the most is how bad my PT scores were. I could have sworn I nailed the first one, and did even better on the second, but they were scored 60 and 50, respectively. I'm not really sure how to practice those, other than submitting the few that barbri grades. How can I grade my own when I was so off on my perception of my score? Also, that's 3 hours of very tiring exam practice that gains me zero substantive knowledge of the law to help in other areas.

Any ideas? Thanks!

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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby Notorious RBG » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:43 pm

BrokenMouse wrote:
Notorious RBG wrote:
That's exactly where I was last time, on my third try. 5 more points on a PT and I would have passed. Seriously it is BS you got a 50. Your writing on this board is better than a 50.


Wow you passed on your 4th try after many close calls?


I wouldn't say that- honestly I was under-prepared for 1 and 2. I don't recall exact numbers but they were both high 1300's so I didn't feel that ripped off. I work in a JD but not bar required job, and I also underestimated the test and kind of assumed I'd pass because I went to a good school. The third time I got a 1420, that was my close call. And the re-reads were total bullsh*t.

I can't fathom getting fired for not passing, or taking this thing 13 times or something. Terrible.

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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby Notorious RBG » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:54 pm

zenotheelder wrote:
What's interesting though is my MBE score was pretty high (scaled 1591). It was high enough that, even though I failed every essay, I still almost passed overall.



This is what I'm saying. 35% is less than the essay portion but it is still very significant, and you can totally pass by acing the MBE. And as funky as the questions can be, at least you can have some idea of how you'll do by doing practice tests. Maybe?

I feel like I know a lot of people that passed by just giving up on writing good essays and aimed for mediocre essays and a fantasic MBE.

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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby BrokenMouse » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:55 pm

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corpora_delicti
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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby corpora_delicti » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:59 pm

I can see a lot of people's grades getting blown by PT-A.

When I started on PT-A I was confused as all to hell about exactly what was going on and once I started outlining my answer I figured it out, but from talking to other people who took it I could see a lot of people didn't understand exactly what they were doing. If you didn't really know what you were doing for that PT I could see a bar grader giving you a really awful grade, no matter how good your legal writing or analysis of case law was...since you didn't really respond to the call of the questions.

The problem and case file weren't complicated, but it was kind of tricky understanding exactly what the relevant legal issue was that needed to be addressed. The issues that people zoned in on were all over the map. It was difficult to figure out the issues to address, but once you see it - it became quite clear what the call was.

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MarcZero
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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby MarcZero » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:16 pm

Throwing this out there for any potential passers who may still be reading, but does anybody have a set of California Themis books they don't want anymore? I lost mine in the fire, and if you repeat the course, they expect you to use the old books again and new books are $275. I'd gladly pay for shipping if anyone would like. Thanks!

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robinhoodOO
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Re: July 2015 California Bar Exam

Postby robinhoodOO » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:27 pm

corpora_delicti wrote:I can see a lot of people's grades getting blown by PT-A.

When I started on PT-A I was confused as all to hell about exactly what was going on and once I started outlining my answer I figured it out, but from talking to other people who took it I could see a lot of people didn't understand exactly what they were doing. If you didn't really know what you were doing for that PT I could see a bar grader giving you a really awful grade, no matter how good your legal writing or analysis of case law was...since you didn't really respond to the call of the questions.

The problem and case file weren't complicated, but it was kind of tricky understanding exactly what the relevant legal issue was that needed to be addressed. The issues that people zoned in on were all over the map. It was difficult to figure out the issues to address, but once you see it - it became quite clear what the call was.


I agree with this completely. PT's are like a puzzle. It doesn't matter whether your legal writing is great or terrible. You must be able to put the puzzle together like they want it to be pieced together.

I remember having the 'aha moment' for both PT-A and PT-B roughly 90 minutes into both once I figured out exactly what the issues were, exactly what facts were necessary to analyze the issues, and exactly which cases to cite and the rules for each issue. So much of the work is about spotting the specific legal issues and then using the facts and law that they specifically want you to use to put together your answer.

As for those that had weaker PT's, you just have to figure out what the examiners were looking for and how to piece the puzzle together like they want. Reading models is the best way to do this, obviously. If you're short on time, read the PT and outline for 90 minutes and compare your outlines to the models to see if you were on the right track on getting the frame of the "puzzle." It's all about giving them what they want. Remember, PT's are crafted in very particular ways. You do not need to get creative, just piece together the puzzle.

As for my approach, I read the memo, then the cases, and then the file. By briefing the cases first, I found I had an easier time finding the pertinent facts and spotting the specific issues to hone in on. Basically, to me this method was like building the side pieces of the puzzle, which made it easier for completing the rest.




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