.

User avatar
Bustang
Posts: 439
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:26 pm

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby Bustang » Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:58 pm

Missed four on milestone #2 because I changed my answer. So annoying.

User avatar
Dr. Review
Posts: 1797
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:51 am

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby Dr. Review » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:01 pm

That Kevin Frost email about PA scoring is pretty clutch.

User avatar
geekrocker37
Posts: 129
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:26 pm

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby geekrocker37 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:03 pm

Bedsole wrote:That Kevin Frost email about PA scoring is pretty clutch.


So he's def lurking around here, right? 8)

User avatar
Dr. Review
Posts: 1797
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:51 am

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby Dr. Review » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:03 pm

geekrocker37 wrote:
Bedsole wrote:That Kevin Frost email about PA scoring is pretty clutch.


So he's def lurking around here, right? 8)


I said earlier in the thread that he was. He responded to one of my posts via email once, because my username outs me pretty easily.

TheBeard
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:28 pm

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby TheBeard » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:38 pm

Bedsole wrote:That Kevin Frost email about PA scoring is pretty clutch.


Super clutch. Like I said before: I have enough motivation to pass, I don't need to be scared shitless. His email lets me know I'm on track so I can focus on studying without worrying about where I stand in the grand scheme of things.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:44 pm

Poast the letter please.

TheBeard
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:28 pm

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby TheBeard » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:55 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Poast the letter please.


How the PA bar is scored:

You need a total scaled and weighted score of 272 to pass the PA bar exam. So where do the points come from? What's a scale? And what is the weighting?

1) The Raw Points -- A total of 340 raw points are available on the exam. 190 of these points come from the MBE. There are 200 questions on the MBE, and 10 of these are test questions for future exams and will not count toward your total. That leaves 190 questions, and each is worth one raw point. There are 150 raw points available on the PA essay exam. There are six essays worth 20 points each, and the PA Performance Test. The PT is graded out of 20 points, and then that raw score (for just the PT) is weighted and multiplied by 1.5. This gives you 30 "raw" points for the PT.

2) Scaling the MBE and Essays -- The raw score for each half of the exam is then scaled. The scaling is done separately for each half. This is sometimes referred to as a curve, but the exam is not curved. You will not find the word "curve" or any variation thereof on the websites for the NCBE or the PA examiners. There is not a pre-determined outcome to the bar exam (which is the most common understanding of "curved" to a law student). This is not your 1L torts class. In theory, 100% of bar applicants could pass the July 2013 bar exam.

So the bar exam is scaled, not curved, and the goal of the scaling is to equate/standardize difficulty across exams (and not separate students within the exam). This is similar to the LSAT. The scaling ensures that you are not penalized or rewarded---relative to prior examinees---for taking a relatively more difficult or relatively easier exam. The difficulty of an exam is determined by the examiners using a complicated statistical method; for our purposes, it's important to know that the examiners are pretty good at standardizing difficulty when writing the exam, so the scaling from year to year tends to be somewhat consistent and I can offer a pretty good estimate before test day. For example, here are some scores from the last two July MBEs:

- In July 2011, a raw score of 100 translated to a scaled score of 121.9, and a raw score of 120 translated to a scaled score of 137.5.
- In July 2012, a raw score of 100 translated to a scaled score of 119.9, and a raw score of 120 translated to a scaled score of 135.4.

The size of the scaling decreases as your raw score increases (for example in 2011, 21.9 points for 100, and 17.5 points for 120).

The PA examiners are not as forthcoming with scaling information, but based on scaling for the past two years, a conservative estimate puts the essay exam scaling in the 55-60 point range. These points are simply added to your raw score. So for the essay exam, a raw score of 75 (out of 150 total raw points) is going to be scaled to around 130 to 135.

3) Weighting the exam, and getting to 272 -- The PA essay exam is worth 55% of your total score, and the MBE is 45%. To achieve this, your scaled essay score is multiplied by 1.1, and your scaled MBE score is multiplied by 0.9, and the two figures that result are added together. Let's take two example scores from above.

Scaled MBE score of 121.9 (100/190 raw on July 2011): 121.9 x .9 = 109.71
Scaled PA essay score of 135 (75/150 raw with estimate of 60 pts scaled): 148.5

148.5 + 109.71 = 258.21 (DOES NOT PASS)

So roughly 50% raw for each section was not enough to pass. But let's keep the original essay score and instead give this student the 120/190 scaled score from July 2011, or 137.5 total, and weight it:

Scaled MBE score of 137.5 x .9 = 123.75

Add 123.75 to the 148.5 essay score, and the applicant is now at 272.25 (PASS).

This illustrates an important point....

4) What scores do I need in my Themis course to pass the PA bar? -- The important point from above is that there are countless ways to get to 272, and therefore this question is tough to answer. We don't know for certain. It depends on the scaling for each part of the exam, and then what you need to average on each essay depends on your score from the MBE, and vice versa. There's nothing I can do to change this uncertainty, so the best thing you can do as an applicant is accept the uncertainty, continue to work hard, and use conservative estimates.

The conservative estimate is 65%. This means 65% overall on the MBE, and 13/20 on the essays (and 19.5/30 on the PT). When I apply those raw scores to some conservative scaling estimates, here's how it shakes out:

MBE -- 123 raw (65% of 190), plus 13 scaling points = 136. Now multiply 136 by 0.9 = 122.4 weighted score
PA Essay -- 97.5 raw (65% of 150), plus 50 scaling points = 147.5. Now multiply 147.5 by 1.1 = 162.25 weighted score

122.4 + 162.25 = 284.65. PA rounds that up to 285, and Applicant X passes by 13 points.

If I change each raw score to 60%, the hypothetical applicant comes up short by about 4 points. But remember that I was very conservative with the scaling estimates. My MBE scaling estimate was 2 points lower than the 2012 scale and 4 points lower than the 2011 version, and the essay scaling was a full 5-10 points lower than the average during the same period. If I bring the scaling estimate in line with the last couple years, the applicant would pass by 5-10 points. But this part is unpredictable, so it's best to stay conservative.

By test day, I want everyone to aim for 13/20 on the essays, and 65% on each MBE topic. But remember that you almost certainly "need" less--perhaps a good bit less--to get to 272, and if you're somewhat weak on the essays you can make up for it on the MBE, and vice versa.

If you're not there yet, don't worry. There's a reason the initial MBE goal in the course is 50%, and the Milestones are 60%. Bar prep is a process, and we don't expect that you'll be prepared to pass on day one. There's another month left to study, and most students see their biggest gains in the last month. You're not necessarily supposed to be there yet, even with a month to go. If you're hitting the Themis goal of 50% (on average) for the MBEs, you're in decent shape for July 1st. It's time to kick it into gear, but don't fret. And anything higher is great, but it's now time for everyone to kick it into gear. Don't get over confident. If you're at 60%, aim for 65%. If you're at 65%, aim for 70%. And so on. Use the chart that I sent last week and start to identify your weak sub topics. If you're weak in a highly tested sub topic, attack it ruthlessly until you're in the 70+% range for that topic.

As a take away: learn and try understand the scoring right now, but don't get too wrapped up in the scoring. Don't get over-confident if you're at 70% average for the MBEs, and don't lose confidence if you are at 50%. The scoring on test day is somewhat predictable, but not guaranteed. So stay conservative and work diligently, but understand that being below average is not fatal. If you're worried about your scores, TALK TO ME. Now is the time to address these concerns.

I hope this helps. Please email me with any questions (in a separate email please, not a reply to this email. It's easier to organize!)

User avatar
forza
Posts: 2780
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:32 am

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby forza » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:02 am

Why did I think that defendants' statements in plea negotiations could be used against them for impeachment purposes if they later get on the stand and lie like a rug? Seemed so commonsense... :|

User avatar
Agoraphobia
Posts: 193
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:30 pm

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby Agoraphobia » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:23 am

Anything in plea negotiations is out. Like a lot of evidence rules, it's a policy concern - we want to encourage plea-bargaining, and knowing that statements in plea bargains could be used in court would disincentivize a defendant from plea-bargaining.

User avatar
Agoraphobia
Posts: 193
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:30 pm

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby Agoraphobia » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:16 am

Reviewing property & confused...

So are the only differences between a real covenant & an equitable servitude that (1) real covenant = damages, equitable servitude = injunction ; and (2) real covenant requires privity...?

I can't wrap my head around what these nuances actually are... How would you spot the difference unless there was a fact pattern where someone was suing and asking for damages/injunction?

hlsperson1111
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:10 pm

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby hlsperson1111 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:29 am

At 37%, scoring roughly 70% on the MBE sections (higher in Con Law & Crim/Crim Pro, lower in real property, haven't done any Evidence or K's MBEs yet), 78% on Milestone 1, and getting around 70-75 on graded essays. CA bar. Haven't touched Evidence, Civ Pro, Remedies, Wills, and Trusts left as far as substantive law goes. Really didn't work very hard in June TBH. Am I not at all F'd, totally F'd, or somewhere in between?

jerwood84
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:10 am

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby jerwood84 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:07 am

Got a 53/50 on milestone exam #2. Received extra credit points for finishing the exam 30 minutes ahead of time. Currently at 105% completion on Themis (I repeated some lectures at x5). Received a Nobel Peace Prize (via email) from my grader after he read my Constitutional Law graded essay.

Am I screwed? Omg omg how am I going to pass this? Guys how screwed am I?

Fuckin gunners. Leave that shit in law school.

User avatar
elysiansmiles
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby elysiansmiles » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:56 am

Advanced Sales is almost exactly like Contracts and Sales, but there is JUST enough new info that I can't bring myself to not watch it. Ugh.

dsclaw
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby dsclaw » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:05 am

Agoraphobia wrote:Reviewing property & confused...

So are the only differences between a real covenant & an equitable servitude that (1) real covenant = damages, equitable servitude = injunction ; and (2) real covenant requires privity...?

I can't wrap my head around what these nuances actually are... How would you spot the difference unless there was a fact pattern where someone was suing and asking for damages/injunction?


It would be obvious because the question or answer would call for either a equitable remedy or damages OR in the fact pattern the parties would not have the vertical privity

locusdelicti
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 2:25 pm

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby locusdelicti » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:37 am

jerwood84 wrote:Got a 53/50 on milestone exam #2. Received extra credit points for finishing the exam 30 minutes ahead of time. Currently at 105% completion on Themis (I repeated some lectures at x5). Received a Nobel Peace Prize (via email) from my grader after he read my Constitutional Law graded essay.

Am I screwed? Omg omg how am I going to pass this? Guys how screwed am I?

Fuckin gunners. Leave that shit in law school.


Heh.

User avatar
BarbellDreams
Posts: 2256
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby BarbellDreams » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:38 am

jerwood84 wrote:Got a 53/50 on milestone exam #2. Received extra credit points for finishing the exam 30 minutes ahead of time. Currently at 105% completion on Themis (I repeated some lectures at x5). Received a Nobel Peace Prize (via email) from my grader after he read my Constitutional Law graded essay.

Am I screwed? Omg omg how am I going to pass this? Guys how screwed am I?

Fuckin gunners. Leave that shit in law school.


U mad bro?

locusdelicti
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 2:25 pm

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby locusdelicti » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:46 am

BarbellDreams wrote:
jerwood84 wrote:Got a 53/50 on milestone exam #2. Received extra credit points for finishing the exam 30 minutes ahead of time. Currently at 105% completion on Themis (I repeated some lectures at x5). Received a Nobel Peace Prize (via email) from my grader after he read my Constitutional Law graded essay.

Am I screwed? Omg omg how am I going to pass this? Guys how screwed am I?

Fuckin gunners. Leave that shit in law school.


U mad bro?


Annoyed by and tired of humblebragging, would be my guess.

User avatar
Catleesi
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:48 pm

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby Catleesi » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:49 am

jerwood84 wrote:Got a 53/50 on milestone exam #2. Received extra credit points for finishing the exam 30 minutes ahead of time. Currently at 105% completion on Themis (I repeated some lectures at x5). Received a Nobel Peace Prize (via email) from my grader after he read my Constitutional Law graded essay.

Am I screwed? Omg omg how am I going to pass this? Guys how screwed am I?

Fuckin gunners. Leave that shit in law school.


This is my favorite post on any thread ever.

User avatar
Bustang
Posts: 439
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:26 pm

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby Bustang » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:49 am

Agoraphobia wrote:Reviewing property & confused...

So are the only differences between a real covenant & an equitable servitude that (1) real covenant = damages, equitable servitude = injunction ; and (2) real covenant requires privity...?

I can't wrap my head around what these nuances actually are... How would you spot the difference unless there was a fact pattern where someone was suing and asking for damages/injunction?


I believe this is correct. I am TERRIBLE at property, but if it's a covenant question, I ask the basic questions (in writing, meant to burden the land to subsequent people etc) and then I see if there's privity (which I usually can't do because I'm retarded). If you have the ability to have a real covenant, then you always have an equitable servitude. If you can't prove a real covenant, you may have an equitable servitude.

locusdelicti
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 2:25 pm

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby locusdelicti » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:52 am

TheBeard wrote:
Bedsole wrote:That Kevin Frost email about PA scoring is pretty clutch.


Super clutch. Like I said before: I have enough motivation to pass, I don't need to be scared shitless. His email lets me know I'm on track so I can focus on studying without worrying about where I stand in the grand scheme of things.


I was very happy to see it. You win the gold star today, Kevin Frost! Good on ya.

User avatar
Dr. Review
Posts: 1797
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:51 am

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby Dr. Review » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:53 am

I have an unreasonable hate for these practice essays. I dread them every time I see them pop up on my tasks. They are never as bad as I expect, I just hate them for some reason.

missinglink
Posts: 946
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:49 am

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby missinglink » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:23 am

Does anyone know what time to cut-off is before the schedule realigns / reorganizes. I was working until about 9pm PST last night and 2/3 of my tasks for today show as complete.

locusdelicti
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 2:25 pm

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby locusdelicti » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:27 am

Bedsole wrote:I have an unreasonable hate for these practice essays. I dread them every time I see them pop up on my tasks. They are never as bad as I expect, I just hate them for some reason.


Me too. I've answered a couple with "I don't know." Submit.

I usually try to issue spot, at least, but they're a drag, for sure.

User avatar
Dr. Review
Posts: 1797
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:51 am

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby Dr. Review » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:29 am

locusdelicti wrote:Me too. I've answered a couple with "I don't know." Submit.

I usually try to issue spot, at least, but they're a drag, for sure.


What I have found is that if I just decide "I'll outline this one, see what issues I can spot, and then double check my outline" it often turns into me writing a full blown answer, which is incredibly useful as a review. Even when I don't end up writing out the answer, refreshing the elements in my head does more for me than just reading the model answer. Still doesn't change the fact that I dread every single one of these things.

User avatar
HETPE3B
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:35 pm

Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby HETPE3B » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:38 am

For those who have done some MPTs.. are you guys finding Themis's method (read the law first, THEN the facts) unnecessary?




Return to “Bar Exam Prep and Discussion Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: JJAB and 4 guests