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missinglink
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby missinglink » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:58 pm

Reinhardt wrote:Sooo, essay 4 is released on the 28th, and we have until the 28th to complete it. So much for Flex Study.

I know, right? Seems harsh to make the last essay due on the day of release. I've been waiting until Sunday to do the essays because by then I'm finished with other practice essays and MBE PQs. And I'm therefore able to better handle the essays.

I can see making essays 1-3 due by a certain day. But providing no buffer for essay 4 vitiates the whole 'flex study' idea.

locusdelicti
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby locusdelicti » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:07 pm

My fourth essay is a performance test. Guh. I hate them.

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Dr. Review
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby Dr. Review » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:19 pm

locusdelicti wrote:Performance test. Guh. I hate them.


You and me both. My 4th is Real Property, but my 5th and 6th are on the same day? What's all this, then?

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HETPE3B
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby HETPE3B » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:28 pm

Just got a message saying that we should be at 39% at this point (NY). hth

TheBeard
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby TheBeard » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:31 pm

Is anyone else having a harder time with MBE PQs for the last three MBE topics than you did with the first three? My setup had me doing ConLaw, Torts, and Property first, followed by Evidence, K's, and Crim Law/Procedure. Granted I haven't finished all the sets of MBE PQs for Crim and K's, my scores on the last three topics are much lower than my scores for the first three topics. I'm wondering if my brain is overwhelmed with crap at this point.

dsclaw
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby dsclaw » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:33 pm

Anyone else think that the Evidence questions are absolutely terribly worded. For example:


SPOILER EVIDENCE QUESTION
A defendant is on trial for attempted fraud. The state charges that the defendant switched a price tag from a cloth coat to a more expensive fur-trimmed coat and then presented the latter for purchase at the cash register. The defendant testified in her own behalf that the tag must have been switched by someone else. On cross-examination, the prosecutor asks whether the defendant was convicted on two prior occasions of misdemeanor fraud in the defrauding of a retailer by the same means of switching the price tag on a fur-trimmed coat.

Is the question about the convictions for the earlier crimes proper?
A. It is not proper either to impeach the defendant or to prove that the defendant committed the crime.
B. It is proper both to prove that the defendant committed the crime and to impeach the defendant.
C. It is proper to impeach the defendant, but not to prove that the defendant committed the crime.
D. It is proper to prove the defendant committed the crime, but not to impeach the defendant.

Incorrect: Answer choice B is correct because under Federal Rule of Evidence 404(b), prior bad acts can be admitted to prove the defendant's conduct if offered for some purpose other than to show that the defendant is a bad person. In this case, the bad acts are very similar to the acts in dispute, and tend to show non-character purposes such as motive, intent, absence of mistake, identity, or common plan or scheme (the "MIMIC" rule). Thus the bad acts can be offered as proof that the defendant committed the crime charged. Prior bad acts are also admissible for the purpose of impeachment. Answer choice A is incorrect because it states the opposite of the rule. Answer choices C and D are incorrect because prior bad acts are admissible as both substantive evidence (making choice C incorrect) and impeachment evidence (making choice D incorrect).

Now I know that prior bad acts cannot be used to show conformity with a crime but can be used to show the motive, plan, etc. And I know that misdemeanors which incorporate truthfulness can be brought up. However no where does answer choice B suggest to me that they are using the evidence for motive, common plan, etc.

TheBeard
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby TheBeard » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:33 pm

locusdelicti wrote:My fourth essay is a performance test. Guh. I hate them.


Same here. Not looking forward to it.

missinglink
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby missinglink » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:46 pm

antonious13 wrote:
Bikeflip wrote:
This dude, Tiersma, doesn't really follow the hand out of the outline in a predictable manner. He'll sorta follow the outline, but he won't use the exact phrasing you need for the blanks, and he'll jump ahead two examples. Do not 2x speed on this dude.



Guzman (Contracts) does exactly this. It pisses me off. I have blanks still on my handout because he never addresses that blank. Fucking Guzman.


So so annoying.

I've wasted an inordinate amount of time skipping back to try to figure out if I missed something in the lecture.

And my second Guzier: I'm not at all a fan of mnemonic devices. At all.

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HETPE3B
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby HETPE3B » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:03 pm

TheBeard wrote:
locusdelicti wrote:My fourth essay is a performance test. Guh. I hate them.


Same here. Not looking forward to it.

I haven't gotten to MPT yet, but, from its description, shouldn't that be the easy part? Especially for someone who went to a decent law school and didn't get shitty grades across the board.

TheBeard
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby TheBeard » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:15 pm

HETPE3B wrote:
TheBeard wrote:
locusdelicti wrote:My fourth essay is a performance test. Guh. I hate them.


Same here. Not looking forward to it.

I haven't gotten to MPT yet, but, from its description, shouldn't that be the easy part? Especially for someone who went to a decent law school and didn't get shitty grades across the board.


Yeah, it's actually very easy, but it's a drag to practice for. I'm not worried about having to do it in the actual exam.

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Bikeflip
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby Bikeflip » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:59 pm

TheBeard wrote:
HETPE3B wrote:
TheBeard wrote:
locusdelicti wrote:My fourth essay is a performance test. Guh. I hate them.


Same here. Not looking forward to it.

I haven't gotten to MPT yet, but, from its description, shouldn't that be the easy part? Especially for someone who went to a decent law school and didn't get shitty grades across the board.


Yeah, it's actually very easy, but it's a drag to practice for. I'm not worried about having to do it in the actual exam.



Thank God Colorado's 50% MBE & 20% MPT. I can almost blow off the MEE. Almost.

locusdelicti
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby locusdelicti » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:32 pm

HETPE3B wrote:
TheBeard wrote:
locusdelicti wrote:My fourth essay is a performance test. Guh. I hate them.


Same here. Not looking forward to it.

I haven't gotten to MPT yet, but, from its description, shouldn't that be the easy part? Especially for someone who went to a decent law school and didn't get shitty grades across the board.


The problem is the amount of material you need to digest in such a short time. When you practice law, you really won't have these kinds of time constraints very often for producing something. You're never going to have someone say, "here's the law you need - 90 minutes. Go." You usually get at least a few hours, unless you put it off.

I think PTs are good because they help you do something you'll really need to do as a lawyer, in a way, but they're also a bit silly - I've seen plenty of lawyers write some pretty shit briefs and take days to do it, and they still manage to have clients and prevail in arguments.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby BarbellDreams » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:10 pm

locusdelicti wrote:
HETPE3B wrote:
TheBeard wrote:
locusdelicti wrote:My fourth essay is a performance test. Guh. I hate them.


Same here. Not looking forward to it.

I haven't gotten to MPT yet, but, from its description, shouldn't that be the easy part? Especially for someone who went to a decent law school and didn't get shitty grades across the board.


The problem is the amount of material you need to digest in such a short time. When you practice law, you really won't have these kinds of time constraints very often for producing something. You're never going to have someone say, "here's the law you need - 90 minutes. Go." You usually get at least a few hours, unless you put it off.

I think PTs are good because they help you do something you'll really need to do as a lawyer, in a way, but they're also a bit silly - I've seen plenty of lawyers write some pretty shit briefs and take days to do it, and they still manage to have clients and prevail in arguments.


By this theory the entire bar exam is irrelevant.

antonious13
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby antonious13 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:11 pm

The one thing I'm liking about Themis is that they listen. Looks like they extended (for California, at least) the deadline to next Wednesday for essay #4.

Now, if I could only have the motivation to get through Contracts...

locusdelicti
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby locusdelicti » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:14 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
locusdelicti wrote:
HETPE3B wrote:I haven't gotten to MPT yet, but, from its description, shouldn't that be the easy part? Especially for someone who went to a decent law school and didn't get shitty grades across the board.


The problem is the amount of material you need to digest in such a short time. When you practice law, you really won't have these kinds of time constraints very often for producing something. You're never going to have someone say, "here's the law you need - 90 minutes. Go." You usually get at least a few hours, unless you put it off.

I think PTs are good because they help you do something you'll really need to do as a lawyer, in a way, but they're also a bit silly - I've seen plenty of lawyers write some pretty shit briefs and take days to do it, and they still manage to have clients and prevail in arguments.


By this theory the entire bar exam is irrelevant.


Well, the bar exam IS basically irrelevant. All the material you learn on it is irrelevant. You learn how to practice law by practicing law, not by remembering all this shit. Its only relevance is getting you in that courtroom so you can raise your hand, get sworn in and get a job. You already learned how to "think like a lawyer" in law school. The bar exam is just a litmus test, and a stupid one at that.

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Reinhardt
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby Reinhardt » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:23 pm

California peeps, keep this in mind (applicable to other states too):

MBE is worth 35%, but you can probably expect 2-3 of the MBE topics on the essays as well. Combined with Professional Responsibility, if you know those 7 subjects you account for over 80% of your score.

Performance Test 26%
MBE 35%
Essays on MBE subjects + Prof. Responsibility 19.5%+

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Bustang
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby Bustang » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:04 pm

The emotional roller coaster studying for this exam puts you on is quite annoying. Going from the high of doing really well on a graded essay to scoring a 53% on a contracts quiz is infuriating, especially when your previous scores were much higher than that. I'm also worried this second milestone exam is not going to be as easy as the first.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby BarbellDreams » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:51 pm

Bustang wrote:The emotional roller coaster studying for this exam puts you on is quite annoying. Going from the high of doing really well on a graded essay to scoring a 53% on a contracts quiz is infuriating, especially when your previous scores were much higher than that. I'm also worried this second milestone exam is not going to be as easy as the first.


I am scoring anywhere from 47-78% on my MBEs and they are all over the place. Somehow I have convined myself that the real MBE is easier than what Themis is giving me so I'm not terribly worried.

lsatlsat
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby lsatlsat » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:53 pm

Bedsole wrote:
lsatlsat wrote:I figured I'd ask you guys because Themis takes wayy too long to answer my substantive questions, 5-6 days in some cases.

This question is about character evidence.

1) The lecture/handout also says that specific acts of the defendant's bad behavior can never be mentioned, including on cross examination. But rule 405 specifically states that "On cross-examination of the character witness, the court may allow an inquiry into relevant specific instances of the person’s conduct." What's the deal?

Thanks guys.


It is helpful to cross-reference the MBE outline against the handouts. Check out page 14 of the MBE book:

MBE Book wrote:Criminal cases
Generally, when character evidence is admissible as evidence in a criminal case (e.g., evidence of good character introduced by the defendant), specific instances of a person's conduct are not admissible. Character must be proved by either reputation or opinion testimony. Fed. R. Evid. 405(a).

Gray Box wrote:Non-propensity use: When a defendant's bad act is not used to show the defendant's criminal propensity but for another purpose (e.g., motive, identity), such instance of conduct may be admissible for that purpose.


I'm clear on all of that. I'm referring to the ability to use specific instances on cross examination in a criminal case, regardless of non-propensity use. Rule 405 makes it clear that this is OK, and this is what I learned in my evidence class. The lecture/handout and, as far as I can tell, outline all omit this seemingly important distinction. Thanks again guys.

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Bustang
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby Bustang » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:17 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
Bustang wrote:The emotional roller coaster studying for this exam puts you on is quite annoying. Going from the high of doing really well on a graded essay to scoring a 53% on a contracts quiz is infuriating, especially when your previous scores were much higher than that. I'm also worried this second milestone exam is not going to be as easy as the first.


I am scoring anywhere from 47-78% on my MBEs and they are all over the place. Somehow I have convined myself that the real MBE is easier than what Themis is giving me so I'm not terribly worried.


I certainly hope so. I'd say at least 15% of the questions on any given topic make me say "wat" after I'm done reading them.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby BarbellDreams » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:20 pm

I had a question in property MBE today that literally filled up the entire computer screen. By the time I was done reading it there were so many properties transferring so many interests that I basically just guessed.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby BarbellDreams » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:21 pm

Also...PA doesn't require consideration for written contracts with clear intent? REALLY? Ok so I write to you "I'll give you my car next saturday" is a contract? May as well never say or do anything again.

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kalvano
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby kalvano » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:35 pm

Texas is 40% MBE, so that's a max of 400 points. What percentage right, roughly, would I need to get most of the points on the MBE?

Because I've decided that's my only hope.

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Bikeflip
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby Bikeflip » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:20 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:I had a question in property MBE today that literally filled up the entire computer screen. By the time I was done reading it there were so many properties transferring so many interests that I basically just guessed.


I hope the real MBE has 2 shitty answer choices for those questions so I can just skip them. Not like I'd be better off actually reading the damn thing, since I blow at property.

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Dr. Review
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Re: THEMIS BAR REVIEW Hangout.

Postby Dr. Review » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:40 am

I made this for you guys:

Image




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