Why UIUC Sucks

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Rob Johnson
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby Rob Johnson » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:28 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Rob Johnson wrote:
rondemarino wrote:The don't fudge their numbers, but they do a good job of WUSTL-style numbers gaming, i.e. accepting almost exclusively splitters of both types. I don't know if the schools sucks, but with NU and Chicago in their backyard, I'd think twice about going there.


I didn't mean number fudging in terms of acceptances. I'll just quote what I wrote in the other thread.

number fudging-- e.g. "we're a top 10 public law school" -- what the hell kind of a metric is that? Then there was the part where they tell you to ignore USworld news rankings and to attend the school you want and not to worry about rankings-- that'd be great advice if it really didn't matter but it does as far as firms are concerned. Then they tell you it really doesn't matter what the salary statistics are, but to just look at what you want to do and if you want to work at a larger firm then the average is $160K. Do they think people are retarded? I mean seriously, median salary at least hints at the ability of students to go into certain jobs (as does the total % that went into large firms). I don't have the video or brochures with me but I remember there being much more that was bad.


This is HILARIOUS stuff, Rob Johnson. I know you have been baptized in the religion of USWNR rankings, so this may be futile to even argue with you. But what the U of I people told you really isn't that ridiculous, and I'm sure many admissions people from all across the country at all kinds of different schools would say the same thing.

If I want to practice in Illinois, would I be wise to go to USC? Texas? Cornell? According to your logic, yes I should. After all, they have a higher ranking! But to just completely dismiss geographic location, markets, etc. is to remove a crucial aspect of choosing a law school. I want to stay in the Midwest. Going to Illinois for me would be wiser than going to UCLA, even though I am pretty sure I could get into UCLA, Texas or USC without much trouble.

Also, numbers fudging with respect to median salary happens EVERYWHERE. The T-5s all the way down to the TTTs do it. Why does U of I get the brunt of your hostility? Could it be that you are bitter about getting rejected by UIUC during your first cycle? Is it because you had to go pwn a bunch of 150 LSATs at some TTT in order to get to where you are?


You would be an idiot to take UIUC over Cornell (assuming you didn't have a full-ride at UIUC or alternatively had some reasonable scholarship at Cornell). The rest of your comparisons suck because they are outside the t14 and by more regional schools. However, I would really question why anyone in their right mind would prefer Illinois over Cali-- if it wasn't for this whole substantial ties crap with firms this year I would have bid pretty heavily on Cali firms.

My school didn't number fudge like UIUC does. When they say we are a top 10 school, we really are a top 10 school (not a top 10, big 10 school or something stupid like that).

Also, I only took the LSAT once, and got a had a scholly at my TTT. With the economy and my uncertainty as to where I want to end up it made sense to leave.

Rob Johnson
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby Rob Johnson » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:29 pm

mistergoft wrote:
Rob Johnson wrote:I didn't do any name calling. Also, go away.

Oh, that's right, UIUC sucks isn't an inflammatory statement, is it...

My mistake... :roll:


The thread title was Helmholtz's suggestion...

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Helmholtz
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:31 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
starstruck393 wrote:But it is scary how fast the employment numbers drop off once you get out of the T14 or so. For a school that's in the T25, those employment numbers aren't super encouraging. And that's not just UIUC, but all the schools from ~20-30, and it just gets worse after that. I was a big supporter of UIUC, and I still think highly of the school, but there is something to be said about forgoing sticker at a T25 and taking the big scholarship to a lower ranked, regional school with the way hiring is going...


UIUC placed very well for its rank before the economy crashed. But now its crap, and it doesn't even have a good smaller market to dominate. Notre Dame is in a similar position. Both counted on the big law leftovers from U of C and NU, and this year there just aren't any to go around.


I agree:

Chicago Tribune wrote:“We’ve had large national firms tell us they can only go to three or four law schools,” said Tony Waller, assistant dean for career planning and professional development at the University of Illinois College of Law. “For Chicago firms, that means [University of] Chicago, Northwestern and Michigan.”

The U. of I. College of Law expects about 60 firms from across the country to send attorneys to campus this year for on-campus interviews, down from a peak of more than 100 just two years ago, Waller said. He declined to reveal which Chicago firms canceled . But he said he was surprised by some of the firms that bypassed Illinois.

Rob Johnson
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby Rob Johnson » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:32 pm

romothesavior wrote:
I agree with all of this. But still, there is no need to bash UIUC. If UIUC sucks, then so does Minnesota, Boston College, Notre Dame, Iowa, BU, Indiana, etc. etc. etc.


No one disagrees with you there. They are all TTTs as of this year.

romothesavior wrote:If you can get a good scholarship from UIUC (as I expect to), then it may be worth going there rather than sticker at a lower T-14. It just depends on where you want to practice.


That's true. But that's not what most people get going into UIUC and these boards with nothing but happy and uplifting, "go to law school and don't worry about the debt because even if you don't get biglaw you will still make it into a $100K /year job" don't help.

Rob Johnson
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby Rob Johnson » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:34 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
starstruck393 wrote:But it is scary how fast the employment numbers drop off once you get out of the T14 or so. For a school that's in the T25, those employment numbers aren't super encouraging. And that's not just UIUC, but all the schools from ~20-30, and it just gets worse after that. I was a big supporter of UIUC, and I still think highly of the school, but there is something to be said about forgoing sticker at a T25 and taking the big scholarship to a lower ranked, regional school with the way hiring is going...


UIUC placed very well for its rank before the economy crashed. But now its crap, and it doesn't even have a good smaller market to dominate. Notre Dame is in a similar position. Both counted on the big law leftovers from U of C and NU, and this year there just aren't any to go around.


I agree:

Chicago Tribune wrote:“We’ve had large national firms tell us they can only go to three or four law schools,” said Tony Waller, assistant dean for career planning and professional development at the University of Illinois College of Law. “For Chicago firms, that means [University of] Chicago, Northwestern and Michigan.”

The U. of I. College of Law expects about 60 firms from across the country to send attorneys to campus this year for on-campus interviews, down from a peak of more than 100 just two years ago, Waller said. He declined to reveal which Chicago firms canceled . But he said he was surprised by some of the firms that bypassed Illinois.


Finally some people putting things into the correct perspective. :)

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john titor
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby john titor » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:34 pm

the rose-colored glasses around here are pretty prevalent. can you blame people though? wishful thinking. a kid gets a 165 on the LSAT and thinks they are set for life. c'est la vie.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:35 pm

romothesavior wrote:
I agree with all of this. But still, there is no need to bash UIUC. If UIUC sucks, then so does Minnesota, Boston College, Notre Dame, Iowa, BU, Indiana, etc. etc. etc.


I actually think BC and BU will hold up decently well.

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98234872348
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby 98234872348 » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:35 pm

Rob Johnson wrote:
mistergoft wrote:
Rob Johnson wrote:I didn't do any name calling. Also, go away.

Oh, that's right, UIUC sucks isn't an inflammatory statement, is it...

My mistake... :roll:


The thread title was Helmholtz's suggestion...

While I am annoyed at the manner you present yourself, I must admit that I would not advise anyone, in any economy, to attend UIUC at sticker, FTR.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby D. H2Oman » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:36 pm

--ImageRemoved--

Rob Johnson
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby Rob Johnson » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:37 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
I agree with all of this. But still, there is no need to bash UIUC. If UIUC sucks, then so does Minnesota, Boston College, Notre Dame, Iowa, BU, Indiana, etc. etc. etc.


I actually think BC and BU will hold up decently well.


I read a lot of bitching from people that attend those schools on XOXO not too long ago. People with decent stats and on law review too. Who knows though, NYC is definitely a better market the Chicago, and the responses for lower ranking people (i.e. either lower grades or high grades at a lower ranked school) have definitely been slow this year.

Rob Johnson
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby Rob Johnson » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:43 pm

romothesavior wrote:Why would someone choose Illinois over Cali? Oh I dunno... family? Girlfriend? Friends? Personal preference? I must be "out of my right mind" to place value on the people and places that I have known and loved for all these years? Gotcha. I must be an "idiot" to even consider staying in the Midwest rather than go all the way to Ithaca or Georgetown! Yep. you're right... you haven't done any namecalling or said anything inflammatory.


I've lived in Illinois all my life. It's not bad, but spend a couple weeks in Cali (and I mean orange county), and a couple weeks in the winter (and I mean the bullshit negative 5 degree winter) and you'll change your mind about where you would rather be in about 5 seconds.

GULC is in DC. I have no idea why you think spending 8 months a year for three years there would be so terrible. Ithaca is a little rougher but it's a small sacrifice for a better degree. Your odds of working at a large Chicago firm going to Cornell are much better then going to UIUC... You have to remember these schools are national and don't fall into the typical "go to school where you want to practice" rule.

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romothesavior
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby romothesavior » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:46 pm

Alright, I've got to get back to the real world. The bottom line is this: UIUC is a solid school with a solid reputation. I'm not saying it is for everyone, and I'm not saying it is the best (or even one of the best) law schools in the Midwest. (Hell, its not even in my top 3 choices right now.) It has serious drawbacks and anyone going there should be aware of them. Nonethless, there are good reasons for going there (good scholly $, desire to stay in Illinois or the Midwest, no desire for biglaw, etc.)

Rob Johnson, just give it a rest man. You didn't go to U of I. You have some beef with the school. We get it. But there is no need to shit on a solid, well-respected school like Illinois.

And FWIW, Go Illini! Oskee-wow-wow!

keg411
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby keg411 » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:48 pm

It sounds like all of the Midwest Chicago feeders who usually got BigLaw scraps from the T14's got massacred this year. I don't think we'll really know how bad off people from UIUC really are until after the 2L summer since many students will probably get non-BigLaw jobs (there is life outside the NJL250). They may still be okay when all is said and done.

Rob Johnson
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby Rob Johnson » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:50 pm

romothesavior wrote:Alright, I've got to get back to the real world. The bottom line is this: UIUC is a solid school with a solid reputation. I'm not saying it is for everyone, and I'm not saying it is the best (or even one of the best) law schools in the Midwest. (Hell, its not even in my top 3 choices right now.) It has serious drawbacks and anyone going there should be aware of them. Nonethless, there are good reasons for going there (good scholly $, desire to stay in Illinois or the Midwest, no desire for biglaw, etc.)


:lol: Cooley wouldn't be a bad pick with those reason if you modify that to "desire to stay in Michigan."

romothesavior wrote:Rob Johnson, just give it a rest man. You didn't go to U of I. You have some beef with the school. We get it. But there is no need to shit on a solid, well-respected school like Illinois.


Good point. I've wasted way to much time on here. Time to go work out.

Z3RO
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby Z3RO » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:56 pm

I would take LA weather over Illinois any day, but I would go to UIUC before UCLA, because Chicago is where my life is.

That said, I would run, not walk, to NYC the second NYU or Columbia sent me an acceptance letter with 0$.

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coolkatz321
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby coolkatz321 » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:01 pm

starstruck393 wrote:
Rob Johnson wrote:
As for scholarship- I have no idea how UIUC does scholarships, but I'd be cautious about it if it has any GPA requirements. Often they are set high enough where you need to make top 1/3 or top 1/2 and that's a huge risk of potentially losing the scholly and being in a really shitty place because you gave up attending a better school to attend that school.


To be fair, afaik, their scholarships don't have any requirements to them. All the ones I know of were unconditional...


I'm pretty sure that on mine it said that I had to "remain in good standing." As Dean Pless explained it to me, that just meant you had to keep a minimum of a 2.0 GPA. Not really an outrageous requirement by any standard...

Rob Johnson
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby Rob Johnson » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:02 pm

romothesavior wrote:Just because UIUC wasn't for you doesn't mean it isn't for some people.


Haha. It's for people like you who are looking at a full ride or close to it and have desire for biglaw. Unfortunately, the great majority of people that attend or consider attending UIUC won't have a large scholarship and won't have the same expectations (and UIUC's method of advertising itself doesn't help).

Rob Johnson
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby Rob Johnson » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:03 pm

coolkatz321 wrote:
starstruck393 wrote:
Rob Johnson wrote:
As for scholarship- I have no idea how UIUC does scholarships, but I'd be cautious about it if it has any GPA requirements. Often they are set high enough where you need to make top 1/3 or top 1/2 and that's a huge risk of potentially losing the scholly and being in a really shitty place because you gave up attending a better school to attend that school.


To be fair, afaik, their scholarships don't have any requirements to them. All the ones I know of were unconditional...


I'm pretty sure that on mine it said that I had to "remain in good standing." As Dean Pless explained it to me, that just meant you had to keep a minimum of a 2.0 GPA. Not really an outrageous requirement by any standard...


You are getting kicked out it you drop below that anyway.

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rondemarino
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby rondemarino » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:15 pm

This thread would be more interesting if I knew the source of Rob Johnson's animus. UIUC appears to be guilty of the same things that their peer schools are.

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JCougar
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby JCougar » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:50 pm

romothesavior wrote:Finally, don't make assumptions about what regions, weather, etc. people would prefer. I'm a cold weather guy all the way. And while I stick out like a sore thumb (an atheist liberal living in downstate Illinois), there is something appealing to me about Midwestern values and the people in this region.


Tell me about it. I moved from Chicago down to the Tampa area for a job, and I'd move back in a heartbeat if job prospects (or law school prospects) allowed it. Awesome beaches can't make up for the culture of duh and the neverending, sweltering summers down here. Aside from the beach, Florida's not much for culture. It's a state full of bible thumpers, tourists, old farts, and trailer parks -- and most people in between are completely materialistic and stupid, both male and female. Chicago is 100 times the city that Tampa, Orlando, or even Miami is. I've been to LA, to, and it is a boring shithole. What it makes up for in weather, it lacks in exciting things to do. The bars close early, the public transportation sucks, and the cost of living is ridiculous.

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ruleser
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby ruleser » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:03 pm

starstruck393 wrote:
Rob Johnson wrote:
As for scholarship- I have no idea how UIUC does scholarships, but I'd be cautious about it if it has any GPA requirements. Often they are set high enough where you need to make top 1/3 or top 1/2 and that's a huge risk of potentially losing the scholly and being in a really shitty place because you gave up attending a better school to attend that school.


To be fair, afaik, their scholarships don't have any requirements to them. All the ones I know of were unconditional...

They can be pretty generous if your numbers are there (from what I see on LSN)

Also, Cracker Barrell. Makes up for something I'm sure.

notme
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby notme » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:46 pm

You have to get out of the airport and off the freeway before you can say you've "been to" LA. I've "been to" Chicago, and it was the most disgusting city I have ever had the misfortune to be stuck in. I know there must be more to it, or why would people put up with that weather. The point is, if you think LA is a shit hole, its only because you don't know any more about LA than I do about Chicago.

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ruleser
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby ruleser » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:51 pm

notme wrote:You have to get out of the airport and off the freeway before you can say you've "been to" LA. I've "been to" Chicago, and it was the most disgusting city I have ever had the misfortune to be stuck in. I know there must be more to it, or why would people put up with that weather. The point is, if you think LA is a shit hole, its only because you don't know any more about LA than I do about Chicago.

I've lived in both (more than 7 years in each). There is good and bad to each. Chicago suprised the hell out of me that I liked it - I expected everyone there to be jealous I came from CA, but rather they said, "Blech, people suck there." If what you want in life is a family, a house, a sense of community, a somewhat affordable city with most of the things cities have, Chicago>LA by far. If you want to be single and active, lots of beautiful single people to have fun with, sort of larger career ops, better places to visit for weekend trips (Vegas, the desert, national parks, Mexico) then LA>Chicago.

Personally, I think Chicago is better in your 20's (you can live decently, bars open later, easy to get around, better relationships). I went to college in UG in my 20's in both places - wouldn't trade my time in Chicago UG for LA UG for anything.

But unless you are ready to settle down and just do the family thing, LA>Chi for your 30's.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:33 pm

Give me a soul-crushing winter over a soul-crushing summer any day of the week. You can put more layers on to deal with the cold.

You couldn't pay me enough to move to a coast--literally, because it would take $195k in LA, $208k in NYC, $209k in DC to match $160k in Chicago. (Admittedly, if you want real cost-of-living benefits, you go to Texas, but... blech, Texas.)

I also can't imagine not living close to family.

So, remind me again, why in God's name would I subject myself to living on a coast?

That said, all of the Midwestern schools in the shadow of Michigan/UChicago/Northwestern--Ohio, WUSTL, Wisconsin, UIUC, Indiana, MN (though the MN market insulates them a little bit,) Notre Dame, etc.--are obviously hurting this year, and they never do *that* well for Chicago biglaw placement. I've never understood why someone would pay full price for any of them. If you aren't at least getting in-state tuition, you should try to defer a year and establish residency so that you qualify (the obvious exception being Notre Dame.) UIUC isn't any worse than any of the others on the list.

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JCougar
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Re: Why UIUC Sucks

Postby JCougar » Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:40 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:You couldn't pay me enough to move to a coast--literally, because it would take $195k in LA, $208k in NYC, $209k in DC to match $160k in Chicago. (Admittedly, if you want real cost-of-living benefits, you go to Texas, but... blech, Texas.)


This is what I'm talking about. 160K in NY or CA really doesn't mean much. It is as good as a midlaw salary in Chicago. Yes, your school debt payments stay the same no matter where you work, but you can go so much farther in Chi-town on a similar amount of money. Chicago has bars are open until 4am (5am on Saturdays), it's got a neighborhood for basically every ethnicity, sexual orientation, or social persuasion, it's got more than adequate public transportation, more museums than you can visit in a year, awesome sports teams, and you can rent a decent 1BR for under $1000/month.

I've always marveled at how the aspiring law student community seems to ignore our nation's COL when it comes to average starting salaries of schools. Schools that are geographically close to NY or CA will obviously have a higher median salary Than other schools, but, once you graduate, you will realize how far a 160K salary takes you in NY, LA, or SF. The answer is: not very far, unless you managed to pay well under sticker for promotion. If you can manage to get simply a six-figure salary in Chicago, consider it pretty much equivalent to $160K you would get in NY.




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