Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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AboveTheLawSchool
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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby AboveTheLawSchool » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:16 am

Seriously???? what is your motivation for posting in this thread?

cowgirl_bebop
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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby cowgirl_bebop » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:05 am

AboveTheLawSchool wrote:Seriously???? what is your motivation for posting in this thread?

I've been meaning to ask the same thing. It appears as if you have no intention of attending IUB and have spent much of your time over the last few pages almost trying to convince others that it is some sort of Midwest black hole from which there can be no escape.
Where are you going to matriculate in the fall?

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danquayle
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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby danquayle » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:12 am

cowgirl_bebop wrote:
AboveTheLawSchool wrote:Seriously???? what is your motivation for posting in this thread?

I've been meaning to ask the same thing. It appears as if you have no intention of attending IUB and have spent much of your time over the last few pages almost trying to convince others that it is some sort of Midwest black hole from which there can be no escape.
Where are you going to matriculate in the fall?


Actually, I just think he's a pessimist who is considering Indiana but is very doubtful of its caliber and is looking for validation of it's strength.

And there's nothing inherently wrong with pessimism...

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby nadiaaa5860 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:28 pm

danquayle wrote:
cowgirl_bebop wrote:
AboveTheLawSchool wrote:Seriously???? what is your motivation for posting in this thread?

I've been meaning to ask the same thing. It appears as if you have no intention of attending IUB and have spent much of your time over the last few pages almost trying to convince others that it is some sort of Midwest black hole from which there can be no escape.
Where are you going to matriculate in the fall?


Actually, I just think he's a pessimist who is considering Indiana but is very doubtful of its caliber and is looking for validation of it's strength.

And there's nothing inherently wrong with pessimism...



There is a difference between being a realist and a pessimist. The latter is of no value.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby cowgirl_bebop » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:46 pm

danquayle wrote:
cowgirl_bebop wrote:
AboveTheLawSchool wrote:Seriously???? what is your motivation for posting in this thread?

I've been meaning to ask the same thing. It appears as if you have no intention of attending IUB and have spent much of your time over the last few pages almost trying to convince others that it is some sort of Midwest black hole from which there can be no escape.
Where are you going to matriculate in the fall?


Actually, I just think he's a pessimist who is considering Indiana but is very doubtful of its caliber and is looking for validation of it's strength.

And there's nothing inherently wrong with pessimism...


To me this is more than pessimism. He/she has been, IMHO, quite rude to the others here. His last post where he repeated called another poster "stupid" was way over the top. There is a BIG difference between having your own doubts and calling other posters names because they shared their own opinion. Seriously seems to be set in his opinion of IUB and seems to merely be trying to sway others to his side rather than seek validation as you have suggested.

Im sure we can all share our ideas/opinions/questions/concerns while being civil.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby seriously???? » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:22 pm

alright, i'll try to tone it down.
first, for someone who lives in the midwest and with the scholly money, I think IUB is an excellent choice. and I did let my emotions get to me, but for someone to say that Philly is an easy market for an IUB grad is downright silly.
i personally am just trying to look out for fellow east coasters, who may be too amazed by the rankings and the scholarship, and not the hard facts.
personally, most IUB students on this post have agreed with most of my comments.
I feel inclined to voice my opinion for those from outside the midwest, who have no ties, but are planning on the ASW visit. This implies to me that those that are visiting are fully intent on attending, but I still think there are many questions that several east coasters have not been asking, and if one ever gets around to asking the questions, it will be too late.
the best advice I got from my visit, was that A. it is extremely difficult to find a job in the midwest if one is an outsider. B. One needs to figure out where they want to work, even before school starts.
So, I could tell you that outside of the top ten percent of the class, the chances of finding a job in DC, NYC, and CHI are unlikely, but I guess if you are content on going to IUB and are an outsider, you need to pick your main target market ahead of time, and start establishing those connections for the entirety of your schooling, so those connections can land you a job.
like mr quayle said, if the rankings remain where they are, IUB will reap the benefits of this ranking down the road (10-40yrs). So aside from assuring your parents that IUB is a good school, the ranking may not get you anywhere outside of the midwest.
if my arguments make people outside of the midwest want to go to IUB even more so, then so be it. but if it even made one person in a similar situation as myself take a harder look at the school, then I feel as if my rants were worthwhile.
and mr. Quayle was right, two weeks ago, I was pretty sure IUB was going to be my school, but after research, and still no vindication whatsoever as to how IUB is ranked as highly as it is, I probably will not attend.
again, very solid midwestern school, great choice for a midwesterner. for outsiders, certainly a crap shoot. Many law schools are also a crap shoot, but I do think if one wants to get back to the east coast, any T1 or T2 in that region will give you significantly better odds. And if an outsider is convinced that he/she will work in the midwest, well you better start doing everything one possiblly can to assimilate to the region.
best of luck, you can thank me later.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby Sandro » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:45 pm

while seriously??? might be going at it a little *different*, he has a point. I have been mulling over IUb for ~2 months now since I got the full ride. I'm from the South and very much value the ability to get a non shit job when I graduate law school.

I had some long post typed up but I'll make it short - I'm pretty concerned about what happens when you graduate outside the top 20% at IUB as a non midwesterner. I know this concern applies to pretty much every law school but it seems to me there has to be some differences between regional law schools in terms of where they are located and their *home* market.

IUb has Indy. I drove around Indy and was not impressed. IUb will say Chicago is their other market - only 13 people from C/O 2009 got Chicago placement. 13 out of 200+. Outside of Indy you basically have the entire class in 3s/4s/8s scattered throughout the midwest and the nation.

All of the schools im considering are basically regional. While IUb is the cheapest I am not sold on how saving ~50k will help me out long term if I have even slightly lower job prospects. I know the reported salary bands are usually whack but IUb is markedly lower than every other regional school I'm considering and with lower reporting %.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby stlisforlovers » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:14 pm

Sandro wrote:IUb has Indy. I drove around Indy and was not impressed. IUb will say Chicago is their other market - only 13 people from C/O 2009 got Chicago placement. 13 out of 200+. Outside of Indy you basically have the entire class in 3s/4s/8s scattered throughout the midwest and the nation.

All of the schools im considering are basically regional. While IUb is the cheapest I am not sold on how saving ~50k will help me out long term if I have even slightly lower job prospects. I know the reported salary bands are usually whack but IUb is markedly lower than every other regional school I'm considering and with lower reporting %.


do you have a good link with employment statistics and salary information? The only one with a lot of information I can find is the one on the IU website which I suspect is not the best place to get unbiased information.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby Sandro » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:21 pm

--LinkRemoved--

--LinkRemoved--

Both (well, before the new rankings) were T30 state schools who had to compete with a private school ranked higher in USNWR/Prestige/Employment. While their amount reporting salaries is about the same, UGA has markedly higher salaries and more clerkship %. While the numbers should be scrutinized it wouldnt be too much of a stretch to say that you have a better chance of making more $ at UGA and over 5 or so years IUbs cost difference is nullified. And yes I know these are C/O 2008 who went through OCI in 2006 or so.

EDIT - Also, i'm not trying to promote UGA or anything. I know IUb with 120k is probably ~60k cheaper than UGA as well. Just using it as an example of similiarly ranked school in my region that goes along with seriously's point about how being a non midwesterner might play into IUb placement.
Last edited by Sandro on Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby stlisforlovers » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:29 pm

many thanks.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby cowgirl_bebop » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:17 pm

To be honest, I would rather take the risk of being stuck in the midwest or getting mid-law or something back on the East Coast over the debt plunge. I already have UG debt so taking out an extra couple hundred thousand dollars, say for sticker at GW, is a BAD idea.

If I get stranded in Indy with mid-law, I can live with that. Of course, a good paying gig back on the East Coast is my ideal, but if I dont end up at the top of the class that aint gonna happen.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby Sandro » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:59 pm

cowgirl_bebop wrote:To be honest, I would rather take the risk of being stuck in the midwest or getting mid-law or something back on the East Coast over the debt plunge. I already have UG debt so taking out an extra couple hundred thousand dollars, say for sticker at GW, is a BAD idea.

If I get stranded in Indy with mid-law, I can live with that. Of course, a good paying gig back on the East Coast is my ideal, but if I dont end up at the top of the class that aint gonna happen.


I dont think the risk is mid law in Indy or the midwest, I think the risk is shit law in Indy/Midwest. Its not exactly like decent/good paying midlaw jobs are plentiful in the midwest, add in youre an outsider. Only ~36% of 2009 reported salaries, I cant imagine its because they were making 75k in midlaw jobs and just didnt want to.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby alexb » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:07 pm

Sandro wrote:http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/clearinghouse/?school=indiana

--LinkRemoved--

Both (well, before the new rankings) were T30 state schools who had to compete with a private school ranked higher in USNWR/Prestige/Employment. While their amount reporting salaries is about the same, UGA has markedly higher salaries and more clerkship %. While the numbers should be scrutinized it wouldnt be too much of a stretch to say that you have a better chance of making more $ at UGA and over 5 or so years IUbs cost difference is nullified. And yes I know these are C/O 2008 who went through OCI in 2006 or so.

EDIT - Also, i'm not trying to promote UGA or anything. I know IUb with 120k is probably ~60k cheaper than UGA as well. Just using it as an example of similiarly ranked school in my region that goes along with seriously's point about how being a non midwesterner might play into IUb placement.


I'm not sure about in GA, but, FWIW, Indiana has a relatively low cost of living (compared to other midwestern states). One should take that into consideration when they are comparing IU to other regional-peer schools, if one is content remaining in Indiana after graduation.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby athenian » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:22 pm

Col and taxes in Ga are insanely low.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby seriously???? » Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:37 am

its the whole outsider thing, which is why I am pulling the siren. this is why i hope that some of you from the outside who are planning to attend, but are only planning to visit during ASW have a solid backup plan. again, I came into my visit thinking I was going to go there. My gut told me otherwise.
I also thought that i would be content with working in the midwest. however, the more important question to ask is are hiring partners going to be content with you working in the midwest. I mean, we will spend the first year, primarily studying. It will be difficult to participate in extracurriculars and become apart of the indy culture, which is over an hour away.
if you think you can prove your loyalty to region by the start of your 2l, then fine, do it. but if you are planning to move back east, and also network in the midwest, your are going to be stretched pretty thin, without a strong game plan.
a part of me almost got the full transparency, by contemplating taking a photo of the 2009 graduating class in their hallway, then looking up all the graduates to see where and if they were working. However, I only managed to get a list of law review kids from the last several years, but since I no longer think I will attend, I fell short on looking up their names. i did find one kid from my home state on law review, and he was working in a small town back in my home state, in a small firm.
who knows though. IUB does not place well in big cities and in biglaw, but perhaps they do well in country law, which can still be lucrative.
also if IUB also had placement relative to its ranking, it would have gone after kids with higher lsats. I am sorry, but in TLS terms, any score before a 170, or 169 is not a splitter, and IUB is the only T1 school that hooks up kids below a 169 with piss poor grades. There are plenty of schools that have much more balanced kids with good lsat scores and gpas, that would not play the numbers game that IUB is playing. Imagine if all the other schools in the 19-30 range had the same money that IUB had. They would be going after much stronger candidates.
again, great choice for a midwest school. But if others are looking towards another region, more money towards a strong regional school may payoff in the long run, or a similar scholarship to a lesser ranked school in the region you want to work in may also be a good choice. who knows, IUB may still be the best choice. you just got to trust your gut.
for those who are waiting to the last minute, it is going to be difficult, because IUB is going to put on a spectacular show during ASW. Just remember, if Cooley had the funds to host a similar function, they could find the same amount of successful attorneys to come back and razzle/dazzle you.

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AboveTheLawSchool
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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby AboveTheLawSchool » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:27 am

seriously???? wrote:its the whole outsider thing, which is why I am pulling the siren. this is why i hope that some of you from the outside who are planning to attend, but are only planning to visit during ASW have a solid backup plan. again, I came into my visit thinking I was going to go there. My gut told me otherwise.
I also thought that i would be content with working in the midwest. however, the more important question to ask is are hiring partners going to be content with you working in the midwest. I mean, we will spend the first year, primarily studying. It will be difficult to participate in extracurriculars and become apart of the indy culture, which is over an hour away.
if you think you can prove your loyalty to region by the start of your 2l, then fine, do it. but if you are planning to move back east, and also network in the midwest, your are going to be stretched pretty thin, without a strong game plan.
a part of me almost got the full transparency, by contemplating taking a photo of the 2009 graduating class in their hallway, then looking up all the graduates to see where and if they were working. However, I only managed to get a list of law review kids from the last several years, but since I no longer think I will attend, I fell short on looking up their names. i did find one kid from my home state on law review, and he was working in a small town back in my home state, in a small firm.
who knows though. IUB does not place well in big cities and in biglaw, but perhaps they do well in country law, which can still be lucrative.
also if IUB also had placement relative to its ranking, it would have gone after kids with higher lsats. I am sorry, but in TLS terms, any score before a 170, or 169 is not a splitter, and IUB is the only T1 school that hooks up kids below a 169 with piss poor grades. There are plenty of schools that have much more balanced kids with good lsat scores and gpas, that would not play the numbers game that IUB is playing. Imagine if all the other schools in the 19-30 range had the same money that IUB had. They would be going after much stronger candidates.
again, great choice for a midwest school. But if others are looking towards another region, more money towards a strong regional school may payoff in the long run, or a similar scholarship to a lesser ranked school in the region you want to work in may also be a good choice. who knows, IUB may still be the best choice. you just got to trust your gut.
for those who are waiting to the last minute, it is going to be difficult, because IUB is going to put on a spectacular show during ASW. Just remember, if Cooley had the funds to host a similar function, they could find the same amount of successful attorneys to come back and razzle/dazzle you.


Oh really, comparing IUB to Cooley now are we? I think every single thing you said is over-exaggerated.

1) As far as ties go, going to school at IUB is likely all the 'ties' you need to get a job in Indiana. Most people would not go to law school in Indiana if they were not willing to work there. If need be you can just tell employers you went to school at IUB for the sole reason that you wanted to work in the region. I am from the midwest, but that does not mean that I have spent my childhood making connections in Indy.

2) Several other schools are splittler friendly, WUSTL in particular (#18). Don't act like IUB is the only school to game the numbers, it is a common occurrence. And a "splitter" is someone with an LSAT above a given school's 75th and a GPA below that same schools 25th. It has nothing to do with raw numbers.

3) The money IUB got in the donation is for scholarship purposes only, nothing else.

I agree with you that people from outside the midwest may be at a disadvantage, and I agree that people will have trouble taking an IUB degree back with them to other areas of the country. But you are blowing this way out of proportion. It's cool that you decided not to attend IUB, fine. But don't come in here with your bullshit and rain on everyone else's parade.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby Sandro » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:01 am

YYea, I think you took jt a little too far. Multiple top t30 schools will let anyone in with a certain lsat, with money. I think IUb is a great school and am still seriously considering it. Their class of 2010 numbers should be interesting when they release them.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby tiansnake » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:53 am

Hey guys,
Previously in this thread I asked for advices about a choice between IUB$ and Cardozo$. And I really appreciate the opinions you shared about that. I was leaning a little more toward IUB since I thought it could give me more options in the future. Shortly after that, I got a decision from Ohio State (Ohio State$), which made me a bit unsure about where should I go. Given all the information in this thread and others, I have the impression that Indiana U-Bloomington$ and Ohio-State$ are quite similar schools (USNews IUB-23 vs.OHS-35). They are all regional (although strong), all state-university, so I assume their job prospect are pretty the same? I, although quite open to other job options, plan to work in the east coast, preferably NYC or PA. Are there anything I should have considered but failed to? I really appreciate if you could share it with me. Thank you!

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby cowgirl_bebop » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:21 am

This has devolved into a pro-IUB vs. anti-IUB shit storm. Honestly, seriously???? you have made it pretty much clear that you think IUB should be outside of the T1, has shitty employment prospects all around, and that you do not want to attend. I think it's high time that you leave this thread to those of us who are still interested/have already committed and move on to the thread of the school you actually plan on attending to in the fall, wherever that is. I just don't see how your hyperbolic statements about how bad IUB is can contribute anything positive to the discussion.

Can we get back to the REAL purpose of this thread now?

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby stlisforlovers » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:24 am

tiansnake wrote:Hey guys,
Previously in this thread I asked for advices about a choice between IUB$ and Cardozo$. And I really appreciate the opinions you shared about that. I was leaning a little more toward IUB since I thought it could give me more options in the future. Shortly after that, I got a decision from Ohio State (Ohio State$), which made me a bit unsure about where should I go. Given all the information in this thread and others, I have the impression that Indiana U-Bloomington$ and Ohio-State$ are quite similar schools (USNews IUB-23 vs.OHS-35). They are all regional (although strong), all state-university, so I assume their job prospect are pretty the same? I, although quite open to other job options, plan to work in the east coast, preferably NYC or PA. Are there anything I should have considered but failed to? I really appreciate if you could share it with me. Thank you!


If you're looking for biglaw and all things are equal, I'd probably go to OSU, as they have the advantage of being located in a city. They were on the NLJ250 list but they only had a placement rate of ~11% (on the other hand IU was not on the list at all- mostly bc Indy has a small # of NLJ250 firms).
That being said I was under the impression that OSU doesn't give out large scholarships (the largest besides the few full rides being $12000 i thought??). The minimally different NLJ250 statistics aren't worth THAT much of a difference in tuition IMO (if the difference was greater than a couple thousands a year I would change my answer to IU) but obviously that's a very personal choice.
Most importantly I think it's going to be quite a struggle to get to NY from either of these schools. I would attend both of these schools only if I was okay with ending up in the Midwest. If you are okay with that idea, it probably comes down to which one you prefer more- college town vs big city, Indiana vs Ohio, etc.?
Best of luck!!

Edit: If you are interested in NY specifically you might want to wait a cycle and apply at Fordham... if you have the numbers for OSU and IU you probably have a decent shot there and it would give you a much better chance at biglaw on the east coast.

seriously????
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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby seriously???? » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:36 pm

the whole working in indiana thing is not just reserved for indiana. I am just telling you what the career services guy told me. It is a "big hurdle" to jump over for an outsider to get a job in Indy, and Indy hiring partners are "neurotic" with their hiring. Heck, WUSTL is by far the best school in Missouri, and it is located in St. Louis, and their career services people even told me that top students from the outside who like St. Louis and want to work there get shut out.
now with splitter schools, yes WUSTL is a splitter school, there really arent any others. but half of the applicants for IUB that got schollies would not get into WUSTL. anyway that is besides the point.
i'll try to stay away from this post, but seriously, if you are from the outside, you really need to have a plan. IUB may be good in the mdiwest, and good in the eyes of some people in other locations, but IUB as in most schools will not entitle you to a job. IUB harps bigtime on connections and networking, so if you go there, take their advice and do it hardcore.
and fyi, just gauging off of the bios that I have seen, an extremely large majority of all graduates working in indiana (all types of law) are from indiana. I assume that many previous outside graduates also thought that going to IUB was enough to convince partners to hire them, but it didn't work. So again, you need to go above and beyond and become a true Hoosier.
and FYI, committing to pretty much any school without even seeing it in person is somewhat foolish.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby LogosEther » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:37 pm

cowgirl_bebop wrote:This has devolved into a pro-IUB vs. anti-IUB shit storm. Honestly, seriously???? you have made it pretty much clear that you think IUB should be outside of the T1, has shitty employment prospects all around, and that you do not want to attend. I think it's high time that you leave this thread to those of us who are still interested/have already committed and move on to the thread of the school you actually plan on attending to in the fall, wherever that is. I just don't see how your hyperbolic statements about how bad IUB is can contribute anything positive to the discussion.

Can we get back to the REAL purpose of this thread now?


I think Seriously??? asks important questions, but I definitely have to agree with cowgirl.

Not everyone sweeps the T14 in the admissions process. Not everyone has multiple full-scholly offers. Sometimes, people have to make a decision where there are pros and cons to each choice. Especially these days, the economy and job market is going to be a huge con at many schools. Fine. We've established that. Put it up on the board. Now let's make this thread a place where prospective student feel comfortable about asking about the school and where CURRENT students can give them our best answers. Thanks!

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby alexb » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:43 pm

Uhhh, moving on . . . I'll be there for SLD. Anything I MUST checkout while I'm in Bloomington (lol, sorry about the lack of specificity, but I don't really care. I'm just trying to get a feel for the town)?
Last edited by alexb on Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby Sandro » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:51 pm

seriously???? wrote:yes WUSTL is a splitter school, there really arent any others. but half of the applicants for IUB that got schollies would not get into WUSTL. anyway that is besides the point.


WUSTL - 168 and youre in
UMN - 167 and youre in
IUb - 166 and youre in with 120k
UGA - 165/166 and youre in

those are 4 lsat centric schools right off the top of my head in the T30-T20 range.

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alexb
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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

Postby alexb » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:54 pm

Sandro wrote:
seriously???? wrote:yes WUSTL is a splitter school, there really arent any others. but half of the applicants for IUB that got schollies would not get into WUSTL. anyway that is besides the point.


WUSTL - 168 and youre in
UMN - 167 and youre in
IUb - 166 and youre in with 120k
UGA - 165/166 and youre in

those are 4 lsat centric schools right off the top of my head in the T30-T20 range.



Splitters need lovin' too. I don't see the problem. seriously???? is just mad.




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