Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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danquayle
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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby danquayle » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:32 am

Spoonmanners wrote:This is all kind of overblown, and I gotta agree with Bankhead. However, this is kind of a no win situation on the board, considering the tipster and one of the people who gave Fromm a legitimate reason to send the email are posters. Fromm is awesome, and I don’t like that he got put on blast for sending an email reminding people to use some common sense. I'd like to point out that the facebook post was made by a 22 year old girl, and I'm sure that AGent doesn't fear for his life.

As for rankings, I’m interested in where they go. Since last year we have had nothing but improvement. I would be surprised if USNews would be short sighted to jump us up what we did last year only to have us drop. That would make some weary of their rankings. I’ll be pretty happy just to stay the same, but with an increase in numbers, applications, and the nice scholarships have to help in that regard.


It's all numbers man. I'm sure their acceptance rate went up and their yield down (last years was something of a fluke), and the quality of the student body remained pretty much constant from last year's rankings. Indiana is improving yes, but the schools around it are trying pretty damn hard too. I'm guessing 28-29. They're not going to drop from the top 30 because I'm sure their expenditure per student has gone up.

The only wild card in all this is the reputation surveys. I doubt they go down, but if there is any truth to the "echo-chamber" effect of the rankings, there might be a slight bump this year. I doubt it though... reputations take a long, long time to build. Indiana has to stay in the top 30 for at least 5-10 years before they see a real bump in their reputation.

Edit: One thing they could do is massively expand the law school. Facilities are a bigger selling point than the administration realizes, I think. WUSTL got a bump from their new building. So has Notre Dame. I was always of the opinion that they should build a law quad in the parking lot next door. Just mimic Michigan's but a bit smaller and in limestone. With that red ivy they have on some of those buildings, that would look slick.

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Spoonmanners
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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby Spoonmanners » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:40 am

I agree, but I don't know where they would get the money. IU added that new business school building a few years back, and I think we should be able to get a similar addition.

But I guess we will see the new rankings next Thursday. I'm gonna say we end up at 21. A number of schools have been cutting back on expenditures per student, while IU has increased them due to the Maurer money. I hope that translates by bumping us up a few spots.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby agentcom » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:17 am

Spoonmanners wrote:This is all kind of overblown, and I gotta agree with Bankhead. However, this is kind of a no win situation on the board, considering the tipster and one of the people who gave Fromm a legitimate reason to send the email are posters. Fromm is awesome, and I don’t like that he got put on blast for sending an email reminding people to use some common sense. I'd like to point out that the facebook post was made by a 22 year old girl, and I'm sure that Agent doesn't fear for his life.



What in the world does fearing for my life have to do with anything? I don't know what the age or gender has to do with anything either. Are overreactions more understandable when they come from a female or a 22-y.o.?

And haven't I been saying the entire time since my original post that this was overblown? Sometimes I don't think that my words don't mean the same thing to others as they mean to me.

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Unjust Enrichment
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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby Unjust Enrichment » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:44 pm

agentcom wrote:
Spoonmanners wrote:This is all kind of overblown, and I gotta agree with Bankhead. However, this is kind of a no win situation on the board, considering the tipster and one of the people who gave Fromm a legitimate reason to send the email are posters. Fromm is awesome, and I don’t like that he got put on blast for sending an email reminding people to use some common sense. I'd like to point out that the facebook post was made by a 22 year old girl, and I'm sure that Agent doesn't fear for his life.



What in the world does fearing for my life have to do with anything? I don't know what the age or gender has to do with anything either. Are overreactions more understandable when they come from a female or a 22-y.o.?

And haven't I been saying the entire time since my original post that this was overblown? Sometimes I don't think that my words don't mean the same thing to others as they mean to me.


That status update does read very differently when you think of it being written by a big guy rather than a small girl. I think his post raised a fair point just to keep that in perspective, because people on the outside could easily see that as a legitimate threat rather than as an overly emotional vent.

Dean Fromm is a genuine good guy and didn't deserve the bad press he got here. I'm sure the backlash would be somewhat less if a less sympathetic person had been thrown under the bus.

Anyway, I'd be happy if the rankings leaked immediately with any kind of good news for us so we can sweep this momentary bad PR under the rug.

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danquayle
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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby danquayle » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:19 pm

agentcom wrote:
Spoonmanners wrote:This is all kind of overblown, and I gotta agree with Bankhead. However, this is kind of a no win situation on the board, considering the tipster and one of the people who gave Fromm a legitimate reason to send the email are posters. Fromm is awesome, and I don’t like that he got put on blast for sending an email reminding people to use some common sense. I'd like to point out that the facebook post was made by a 22 year old girl, and I'm sure that Agent doesn't fear for his life.



What in the world does fearing for my life have to do with anything? I don't know what the age or gender has to do with anything either. Are overreactions more understandable when they come from a female or a 22-y.o.?

And haven't I been saying the entire time since my original post that this was overblown? Sometimes I don't think that my words don't mean the same thing to others as they mean to me.


I don't think he was defending the girl or attacking you. I just think he was trying to defend school's atmosphere. Of course its an overreaction, but I think his point was to ensure to a third party outsider that the source of the overreaction makes it pretty clear this type of reaction is the exception.

But yeah, I'd rather engage in baseless speculation about the new rankings.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby agentcom » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:35 pm

Unjust Enrichment wrote:
agentcom wrote:
Spoonmanners wrote:This is all kind of overblown, and I gotta agree with Bankhead. However, this is kind of a no win situation on the board, considering the tipster and one of the people who gave Fromm a legitimate reason to send the email are posters. Fromm is awesome, and I don’t like that he got put on blast for sending an email reminding people to use some common sense. I'd like to point out that the facebook post was made by a 22 year old girl, and I'm sure that Agent doesn't fear for his life.



What in the world does fearing for my life have to do with anything? I don't know what the age or gender has to do with anything either. Are overreactions more understandable when they come from a female or a 22-y.o.?

And haven't I been saying the entire time since my original post that this was overblown? Sometimes I don't think that my words don't mean the same thing to others as they mean to me.


That status update does read very differently when you think of it being written by a big guy rather than a small girl. I think his post raised a fair point just to keep that in perspective, because people on the outside could easily see that as a legitimate threat rather than as an overly emotional vent.

Dean Fromm is a genuine good guy and didn't deserve the bad press he got here. I'm sure the backlash would be somewhat less if a less sympathetic person had been thrown under the bus.

Anyway, I'd be happy if the rankings leaked immediately with any kind of good news for us so we can sweep this momentary bad PR under the rug.


I didn't take the phrase "gunning for" to mean anything in a violent sort of way. Regardless of who sent it, it is hard to imagine that the person actually meant that he or she was going to incite violence. Now THAT would be an overreaction.
It was exactly what you said UR: "an overly emotional vent." That's what I've found so interesting about this whole thing is that people are making something out of nothing. I think it's odd (not necessarily wrong) that the "tipster" chose to send this over to ATL. I think it is more odd that ATL thought this piece newsworthy. However, I fail to see the wrong in having a discussion about this now that it is in the open.

If anything, those people that so adamantly want to defend IU Law should appreciate and participate in a conversation to clear the air. If I was a prospective student who came across this piece on ATL, I would probably wonder about what this actually means in terms of the environment of the school and of Bloomington. I don't know of a better place to clear any of those issues up than this forum.

FWIW, from my limited interactions with him, Dean Fromm does seem like a good guy. I think that comes out in the tone of the e-mail he sent (which ATL reproduced in full).

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby kings84_wr » Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:23 pm

Spoonmanners wrote:

But I guess we will see the new rankings next Thursday. I'm gonna say we end up at 21. A number of schools have been cutting back on expenditures per student, while IU has increased them due to the Maurer money. I hope that translates by bumping us up a few spots.


I think this is really a good point, and realistically it could happen, I just predicted more conservatively so I don't get my hopes up haha.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby Spoonmanners » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:21 pm

I know a few schools had to cut back because they weren't getting the donations from alumni they usually get. I think Minnesota was one, and they had to cut back on expenditures. If our numbers improve, which they should have, and maybe reputation score increases, I can't imagine going down much.

I would think the people at USNews who run the numbers would temper jumps in rankings to give the list some stability. If I donated $50 million to Notre Dame, does that mean they get one big bump, then fall back? I would think they would pace out a jump like that, or else every year small differences in numbers would move a large amount of schools up or down.

Whether they do that or not, I dunno, but I'm not expecting much of a drop if there is one. That little scandal at UIUC can't help their reputation score either.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby SportsFanatic » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:30 pm

Hi everyone. I don't post here much, but was looking for some insight. I think I have a failry easy decision to make, but would like to hear some other advice and maybe reassurance (part of me likes the suspense of deciding where to attend and don't want it to be over). I have a very generous scholly from IU (75%) and a very meager scholly from W&M (<25%). IU seems like the obvious choice to me, I loved my visit and had a blast. I'm scheduled to visit W&M next week, however, I'm thinking it's not even worth it at this point. But another part of me is saying you never know until you visit. What do you guys think?

By the way I don't have a preference of where I work after school and I'm interested in Corp law (big firm).

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby kings84_wr » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:32 pm

My one worry is employment scores, but as far as i can tell they simply mean that graduates are working, not necessarily at a high paying job or in a legal job for that matter. And also the employment should hit everyone pretty hard.

I think you may see GW and Fordham move back up a bit, it seems like they both have really tightened the P/T programs up a lot in response to the drop.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby kings84_wr » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:39 pm

SportsFanatic wrote:Hi everyone. I don't post here much, but was looking for some insight. I think I have a failry easy decision to make, but would like to hear some other advice and maybe reassurance (part of me likes the suspense of deciding where to attend and don't want it to be over). I have a very generous scholly from IU (75%) and a very meager scholly from W&M (<25%). IU seems like the obvious choice to me, I loved my visit and had a blast. I'm scheduled to visit W&M next week, however, I'm thinking it's not even worth it at this point. But another part of me is saying you never know until you visit. What do you guys think?

By the way I don't have a preference of where I work after school and I'm interested in Corp law (big firm).


I think IU is definitely the choice, but know that big law can be tough from either of those. and the Indy/Loiusiville metro areas are the best marekts for IU right now. Hopefully the market gets a little better the next couple years for all of our sakes. I think its smart to take the school that will put you in the least debt, in case you don't get that 160k job right after law school.

If you are spending a lot of money to visit W&M then maybe its not worth visiting if have made up your mind, but if its just a short dive then I say you may as well check it out.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby agentcom » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:43 pm

Spoonmanners wrote:I know a few schools had to cut back because they weren't getting the donations from alumni they usually get. I think Minnesota was one, and they had to cut back on expenditures. If our numbers improve, which they should have, and maybe reputation score increases, I can't imagine going down much.

I would think the people at USNews who run the numbers would temper jumps in rankings to give the list some stability. If I donated $50 million to Notre Dame, does that mean they get one big bump, then fall back? I would think they would pace out a jump like that, or else every year small differences in numbers would move a large amount of schools up or down.

Whether they do that or not, I dunno, but I'm not expecting much of a drop if there is one. That little scandal at UIUC can't help their reputation score either.


There's an interesting piece on the highlighted portion of your quote that talks about how minor changes even in lower T2 schools can actually have huge ripple effects throughout the rankings. The study did some sort of reverse engineering of USNRW's rankings to get there. Wish I had the link ... Does anyone remember that?

As for the thrust of your point, I think the rankings consider the size of the endowment, which shouldn't be as volatile of a measure as (I think you're saying) annual donations. In normal economic times, once an endowment goes up, it's going to stay up.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby Spoonmanners » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:44 pm

SportsFanatic wrote:Hi everyone. I don't post here much, but was looking for some insight. I think I have a failry easy decision to make, but would like to hear some other advice and maybe reassurance (part of me likes the suspense of deciding where to attend and don't want it to be over). I have a very generous scholly from IU (75%) and a very meager scholly from W&M (<25%). IU seems like the obvious choice to me, I loved my visit and had a blast. I'm scheduled to visit W&M next week, however, I'm thinking it's not even worth it at this point. But another part of me is saying you never know until you visit. What do you guys think?

By the way I don't have a preference of where I work after school and I'm interested in Corp law (big firm).


I'd check it out. This is the next 3 years of your life, so you might as well spend a few hundred bucks and check it out. Of course I liked IU enough to not visit any school that wasn't giving me a better scholarship. 75% is NICE though.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby SportsFanatic » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:47 pm

kings84_wr wrote:
SportsFanatic wrote:Hi everyone. I don't post here much, but was looking for some insight. I think I have a failry easy decision to make, but would like to hear some other advice and maybe reassurance (part of me likes the suspense of deciding where to attend and don't want it to be over). I have a very generous scholly from IU (75%) and a very meager scholly from W&M (<25%). IU seems like the obvious choice to me, I loved my visit and had a blast. I'm scheduled to visit W&M next week, however, I'm thinking it's not even worth it at this point. But another part of me is saying you never know until you visit. What do you guys think?

By the way I don't have a preference of where I work after school and I'm interested in Corp law (big firm).


I think IU is definitely the choice, but know that big law can be tough from either of those. and the Indy/Loiusiville metro areas are the best marekts for IU right now. Hopefully the market gets a little better the next couple years for all of our sakes. I think its smart to take the school that will put you in the least debt, in case you don't get that 160k job right after law school.

If you are spending a lot of money to visit W&M then maybe its not worth visiting if have made up your mind, but if its just a short dive then I say you may as well check it out.


Thank you very much. You made a great point about big law not being guaranteed and that is really the main push for IU (less debt) not to mention that I love the people when I visited. Unfortunately, W&M is not a short drive. It will require rental car, hotel, yada yada. Well again, thanks and I will more then likely be at IU next year.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby SportsFanatic » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:49 pm

Spoonmanners wrote:
SportsFanatic wrote:Hi everyone. I don't post here much, but was looking for some insight. I think I have a failry easy decision to make, but would like to hear some other advice and maybe reassurance (part of me likes the suspense of deciding where to attend and don't want it to be over). I have a very generous scholly from IU (75%) and a very meager scholly from W&M (<25%). IU seems like the obvious choice to me, I loved my visit and had a blast. I'm scheduled to visit W&M next week, however, I'm thinking it's not even worth it at this point. But another part of me is saying you never know until you visit. What do you guys think?

By the way I don't have a preference of where I work after school and I'm interested in Corp law (big firm).


I'd check it out. This is the next 3 years of your life, so you might as well spend a few hundred bucks and check it out. Of course I liked IU enough to not visit any school that wasn't giving me a better scholarship. 75% is NICE though.


See I would tend to agree here, if my visit at IU was not that great. But knowing I would be happy there kind of seals the deal.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby Spoonmanners » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:56 pm

SportsFanatic wrote:See I would tend to agree here, if my visit at IU was not that great. But knowing I would be happy there kind of seals the deal.


Hmm... if there is no realistic way for W&M to beat IU, then I guess the decision should be pretty simple.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby Unjust Enrichment » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:08 pm

SportsFanatic wrote:Hi everyone. I don't post here much, but was looking for some insight. I think I have a failry easy decision to make, but would like to hear some other advice and maybe reassurance (part of me likes the suspense of deciding where to attend and don't want it to be over). I have a very generous scholly from IU (75%) and a very meager scholly from W&M (<25%). IU seems like the obvious choice to me, I loved my visit and had a blast. I'm scheduled to visit W&M next week, however, I'm thinking it's not even worth it at this point. But another part of me is saying you never know until you visit. What do you guys think?

By the way I don't have a preference of where I work after school and I'm interested in Corp law (big firm).


I was in the same position as you last year, where I had IU and a similarly ranked school as my top choices. The IU price tag was the smaller of the two, but not by as much as your discrepancy is. I visited IU, loved it, and promptly canceled my next visit...the admissions office of the other school was unimpressive and uncommunicative, while IU showed me they wanted me and put in good effort to recruit me. I couldn't see the other school winning me over at that point, so I just wasn't going to waste the money on travel expenses.

I don't regret never bothering with another visit, but obviously if there's something about W&M that makes you think they might win you over, then by all means be sure. This is a life-determining decision, so if you're not totally sure then what's a few hundred bucks more in solidifying your decision?

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby MBZags » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:34 pm

Did any of you current students have to make a decision between IU-B and UIUC?

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby Spoonmanners » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:51 pm

MBZags wrote:Did any of you current students have to make a decision between IU-B and UIUC?


Yes, UIUC was my first choice before I visted. After visiting both schools there was zero comparison in my eyes. Was not impressed with UIUC at all. Hated Urbana/Champaign, didn't like the campus very much, and I accidentally drove by their law school thinking it was some sort of storage warehouse.

The people seems nice, etc., etc., but it wasn't what I thought it was going to be. I left UIUC one morning and hit IU by that afternoon, and it was just on another level.

I would say that could be just me, but I have heard underwhelming things about UIUC from a number of current and prospective students. If you are deciding between the two I would recommend visiting both.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby MBZags » Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:06 am

Yeah, I am. I'm visiting IU-B on Thursday, UIUC on Friday. I don't know what to really expect; it's pretty much a toss up for me right now.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby agentcom » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:38 pm

Unjust Enrichment wrote:
SportsFanatic wrote:Hi everyone. I don't post here much, but was looking for some insight. I think I have a failry easy decision to make, but would like to hear some other advice and maybe reassurance (part of me likes the suspense of deciding where to attend and don't want it to be over). I have a very generous scholly from IU (75%) and a very meager scholly from W&M (<25%). IU seems like the obvious choice to me, I loved my visit and had a blast. I'm scheduled to visit W&M next week, however, I'm thinking it's not even worth it at this point. But another part of me is saying you never know until you visit. What do you guys think?

By the way I don't have a preference of where I work after school and I'm interested in Corp law (big firm).


I was in the same position as you last year, where I had IU and a similarly ranked school as my top choices. The IU price tag was the smaller of the two, but not by as much as your discrepancy is. I visited IU, loved it, and promptly canceled my next visit...the admissions office of the other school was unimpressive and uncommunicative, while IU showed me they wanted me and put in good effort to recruit me. I couldn't see the other school winning me over at that point, so I just wasn't going to waste the money on travel expenses.

I don't regret never bothering with another visit, but obviously if there's something about W&M that makes you think they might win you over, then by all means be sure. This is a life-determining decision, so if you're not totally sure then what's a few hundred bucks more in solidifying your decision?


I, too, had a school ranked similarly to W&M in my top 4. I had a similar cost comparison, too. The other school offered me some scholarship, but it was an expensive place to live. I also knew a prof. there who would give me a research assistantship. Finally, the other school is in a phenomenal location (that last one might give it away).

Anyway, I visited them both and just couldn't pass up on IU's offer. I strongly suggest that you visit all the schools that you're thinking about. Go to W&M and see what they have to offer. Visiting all the law schools that I was considering was one of the best things that I've ever done. Otherwise you're only interaction with the school is via the admissions department and their pamphlets--hardly the most trustworthy of sources as their job is to make the school look the absolute best it can.

IU's a school that I was lukewarm on going into the admissions process and completely won me over. So it does happen.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby superflush » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:21 am

kings84_wr wrote:At least no Law students have shot up their books with an AK-47, we are making improvement . . . This is actually barely news worthy for ATL standards.


That's kinda true

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby superflush » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:29 am

Spoonmanners wrote:I would think the people at USNews who run the numbers would temper jumps in rankings to give the list some stability. If I donated $50 million to Notre Dame, does that mean they get one big bump, then fall back? I would think they would pace out a jump like that, or else every year small differences in numbers would move a large amount of schools up or down.


Probably not, and here's why. That money is put into the endowment and obviously it is not all spent at once. I'm pretty sure the recognition comes from actually spending money: giving out scholarships, endowed professorships, new buildings/additions.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby Spoonmanners » Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:54 am

superflush wrote:
Spoonmanners wrote:I would think the people at USNews who run the numbers would temper jumps in rankings to give the list some stability. If I donated $50 million to Notre Dame, does that mean they get one big bump, then fall back? I would think they would pace out a jump like that, or else every year small differences in numbers would move a large amount of schools up or down.


Probably not, and here's why. That money is put into the endowment and obviously it is not all spent at once. I'm pretty sure the recognition comes from actually spending money: giving out scholarships, endowed professorships, new buildings/additions.


Oh no, I agree. I was trying to find some justification for dropping. My understanding is the donation is a trust and scholarships use the interest. If all of our respective numbers from the prior year remain the same or improve, it's hard to imagine us dropping in the rankings.

I am also checking TLS more often after the rankings leaked last year. Someone found a copy of the report a few days early. I think I followed it online until 2 or 3 in the morning and all the schools were in.

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Re: Indiana University - Bloomington 1L's taking questions

Postby Vincent Vega » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:24 am

Spoonmanners wrote:
superflush wrote:
Spoonmanners wrote:I would think the people at USNews who run the numbers would temper jumps in rankings to give the list some stability. If I donated $50 million to Notre Dame, does that mean they get one big bump, then fall back? I would think they would pace out a jump like that, or else every year small differences in numbers would move a large amount of schools up or down.


Probably not, and here's why. That money is put into the endowment and obviously it is not all spent at once. I'm pretty sure the recognition comes from actually spending money: giving out scholarships, endowed professorships, new buildings/additions.


Oh no, I agree. I was trying to find some justification for dropping. My understanding is the donation is a trust and scholarships use the interest. If all of our respective numbers from the prior year remain the same or improve, it's hard to imagine us dropping in the rankings.

I am also checking TLS more often after the rankings leaked last year. Someone found a copy of the report a few days early. I think I followed it online until 2 or 3 in the morning and all the schools were in.


People keep saying Indiana is going to have a huge drop this year, but no one will give a good reason why. Just because they're "over-ranked" this year doesn't mean they're going to fall, as long as the criteria that gave them the boost stays the same relative to peer schools.




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