Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions Forum

[Ohiobumpkin]

This might sound like a weird concern, but I'm heavily considering IUB for law school, and I had a question regarding Bloomington specifically. I and my girlfriend are both looking at going to graduate school next year, obviously law for me, while she wants to study higher education administration, which from what I hear, IUB is one of the best in the country (5th I believe). So the one hiccup is that she and I are an interracial couple and have concerns over the attitudes towards that kind of relationship in Indiana. What is diversity like at IUB? What are race relations like? Finally, would an interracial couple be out of place? Thanks for any insight, and sorry this has little to do with the actual academics or other traditional criteria.

[c-monster]

This might sound like a weird concern, but I'm heavily considering IUB for law school, and I had a question regarding Bloomington specifically. I and my girlfriend are both looking at going to graduate school next year, obviously law for me, while she wants to study higher education administration, which from what I hear, IUB is one of the best in the country (5th I believe). So the one hiccup is that she and I are an interracial couple and have concerns over the attitudes towards that kind of relationship in Indiana. What is diversity like at IUB? What are race relations like? Finally, would an interracial couple be out of place? Thanks for any insight, and sorry this has little to do with the actual academics or other traditional criteria.

In general, the main section of Bloomington around campus is pretty much liberal in the sense that you would expect. That being said, once you leave Bloomington, you are in Southern Indiana. Expect to see rednecks and the occasional confederate flag. Take that for what it's worth.

[llachans]

Along with the diversity question, what is the general attitude towards the LGBT community?

How is the job placement for those looking to work with the DA?

[danquayle]

Along with the diversity question, what is the general attitude towards the LGBT community?

How is the job placement for those looking to work with the DA?

Bloomington has one of the more tolerant campuses I've been on, and I did my undergrad at Michigan. Politically, its more conservative, but in terms of acceptance of different types of people, it's pretty much on par. Especially the law school.

[c-monster]

Along with the diversity question, what is the general attitude towards the LGBT community?

How is the job placement for those looking to work with the DA?

Bloomington has one of the more tolerant campuses I've been on, and I did my undergrad at Michigan. Politically, its more conservative, but in terms of acceptance of different types of people, it's pretty much on par. Especially the law school.

Yeah, I doubt any law students will have many problems regarding race, LGBT issues, etc. on campus or at the law school.

[lawschoolgrapedme]

do not go to IUB. employment prospects are atrocious. career services and the rest of the faculty are liars. do not be misled by the rankings. they place more like a tier 2. they cant even compete in indianapolis. you have been warned.

[b-dazzled]

do not go to IUB. employment prospects are atrocious. career services and the rest of the faculty are liars. do not be misled by the rankings. they place more like a tier 2. they cant even compete in indianapolis. you have been warned.

Hey there super disgruntled IU student. Thank you for the objective, well thought out advice.

For real - sorry you are having a rough time.

No one should be misled - the job market is terrible right now regardless of where you attend. IU is no exception. It is not the case that the entire career services department and faculty are liars. They are actually incredibly helpful and available. I've had nothing but great experiences with them.

In addition - my classes are enjoyable, my professors are leaders in their field, my classmates are generally less cut throat than you would expect at a law school, and Bloomington is an incredibly enjoyable city to live in. Want big law? Go to a top 10 school or come here and be sure to place in the top 10%. Want a solid chance at having most of your college financed (leaving you with more career options) at a fantastic school in a fun city? Apply to Bloomington.

I absolutely did not want to attend a school in Indiana that I had never heard of before. I visited and was more than pleasantly surprised. I am attending and I love it here. You'll find disgruntled law students everywhere. The market is terrible, the career offices are imperfect and even if they aren't, there simply are not jobs for everyone and it is incredibly disheartening. If you go to law school at all, be prepared to become disgruntled yourself.

My advice: Don't go to law school. If you do, come to IU.

[lawschoolgrapedme]

do not go to IUB. employment prospects are atrocious. career services and the rest of the faculty are liars. do not be misled by the rankings. they place more like a tier 2. they cant even compete in indianapolis. you have been warned.

Hey there super disgruntled IU student. Thank you for the objective, well thought out advice.

For real - sorry you are having a rough time.

No one should be misled - the job market is terrible right now regardless of where you attend. IU is no exception. It is not the case that the entire career services department and faculty are liars. They are actually incredibly helpful and available. I've had nothing but great experiences with them.

In addition - my classes are enjoyable, my professors are leaders in their field, my classmates are generally less cut throat than you would expect at a law school, and Bloomington is an incredibly enjoyable city to live in. Want big law? Go to a top 10 school or come here and be sure to place in the top 10%. Want a solid chance at having most of your college financed (leaving you with more career options) at a fantastic school in a fun city? Apply to Bloomington.

I absolutely did not want to attend a school in Indiana that I had never heard of before. I visited and was more than pleasantly surprised. I am attending and I love it here. You'll find disgruntled law students everywhere. The market is terrible, the career offices are imperfect and even if they aren't, there simply are not jobs for everyone and it is incredibly disheartening. If you go to law school at all, be prepared to become disgruntled yourself.

My advice: Don't go to law school. If you do, come to IU.

Biglaw is impossible from IU, even if you are top 10%. Name 1 person going.

I do not go to IU anymore (xfer), but several of my friends remain and I have heard nothing but horror stories. Maurer jumped big in the rankings because of a large donation. Due to increased scholarship money, they have been able to increase their median LSAT. However, they do not have the ability to employ you in a similiar fashion as other T25 (BU, WashU, etc.).

While the economy is tough, it is not nearly as tough as IU makes it. Other T25s are getting the top half of their classes jobs. I know of top 10% kids at IU who have yet to even receive a call back.

Also, if you get the full ride, do not take it. If you are full ride material, you will get into at least T10-T14. Would you rather be debt free and unemployed or have 150k worth of debt but come out making 160k?

Also, I suspect the above was written by caroline dowd-higgins (she has a new book, you should buy it -- that was probably the single line I heard her say most) or another worthless employee of the <lack of> career services office.

[kings84_wr]

Biglaw is impossible from IU, even if you are top 10%. Name 1 person going.
[/quote]

That is disingenuous. Its not like IU is placing tons of students in good firms but 10-15% still get the NLJ 250 (and if you count the 5% that transfer out and get big law its even higher). Ya, thats not necessarily as high as some of the "Top 25 schools" but the top 25 is a meaningless cut off anyways. And yes I can name several but I'm not about to post names on TLS. Things arent great at IU, but things arent great anywhere.

[crazyblink653]

Biglaw is impossible from IU, even if you are top 10%. Name 1 person going.

I do not go to IU anymore (xfer), but several of my friends remain and I have heard nothing but horror stories. Maurer jumped big in the rankings because of a large donation. Due to increased scholarship money, they have been able to increase their median LSAT. However, they do not have the ability to employ you in a similiar fashion as other T25 (BU, WashU, etc.).

While the economy is tough, it is not nearly as tough as IU makes it. Other T25s are getting the top half of their classes jobs. I know of top 10% kids at IU who have yet to even receive a call back.

Also, if you get the full ride, do not take it. If you are full ride material, you will get into at least T10-T14. Would you rather be debt free and unemployed or have 150k worth of debt but come out making 160k?

Also, I suspect the above was written by caroline dowd-higgins (she has a new book, you should buy it -- that was probably the single line I heard her say most) or another worthless employee of the <lack of> career services office.

not so much disingenuous as it is flat out wrong. while it definitely doesn't place on par with its rankings peers and has virtually no name recognition outside of Michigan, Indiana, and Illinois (with some VERY few exceptions), if you are in the top 10% you have a good shot at biglaw. the difference is that you just have to hustle a lot harder to get interviews.

[Aberzombie1892]

Biglaw is impossible from IU, even if you are top 10%. Name 1 person going.

That is disingenuous. Its not like IU is placing tons of students in good firms but 10-15% still get the NLJ 250 (and if you count the 5% that transfer out and get big law its even higher). Ya, thats not necessarily as high as some of the "Top 25 schools" but the top 25 is a meaningless cut off anyways. And yes I can name several but I'm not about to post names on TLS. Things arent great at IU, but things arent great anywhere.[/quote]

I just wanted to note that IU never has, to my knowledge, placed 10% of the class in NLJ firms. Don't get me wrong, it is a good school. But I would highly caution people choosing IUB over most of the other schools in the T1 as IUB faces strong in state competition from IUI (location and decent reputation) and Notre Dame (strong reputation). Very few other schools in the T1 face that form of instate competition in relation to jobs available (re: CA is extremely comeptitive, but the job market is large enough to absorb Stanford/Berkeley/UCLA/USC).

Also, if you plan on taking the degree out of state, you need to ask practicing attorneys in the market you want what they think before deciding to attend (even on a full ride). I think some prospective students may be suprirsed at what they find.

[lawschoolgrapedme]

NLJ 250 is not biglaw. especially since you are referring to NLJ 150-250.

[msuz]

.

[lawschoolgrapedme]

bt is not biglaw. especially an indianapolis office (which I think is where they are hq'd).

Is IU so employment deprived that the students don't know what biglaw means or have they just resorted to expanding the definition of it?

[kings84_wr]

There are recent students at Latham, Arnold and Porter, Kirkland, and Jones Day. That is Big law . . .

[lawschoolgrapedme]

There are recent students at Latham, Arnold and Porter, Kirkland, and Jones Day. That is Big law . . .

ny or chi? (I'm assuming chi). Kirkland Chi is awesome.

so i stand corrected, there are 4 big law alums. but note that these are huge exceptions and not the rule. if you aspire to work at those places and you are thinking of attending IU, you should re-think about it.

[kings84_wr]

Biglaw is impossible from IU, even if you are top 10%. Name 1 person going.

That is disingenuous. Its not like IU is placing tons of students in good firms but 10-15% still get the NLJ 250 (and if you count the 5% that transfer out and get big law its even higher). Ya, thats not necessarily as high as some of the "Top 25 schools" but the top 25 is a meaningless cut off anyways. And yes I can name several but I'm not about to post names on TLS. Things arent great at IU, but things arent great anywhere.

I just wanted to note that IU never has, to my knowledge, placed 10% of the class in NLJ firms. Don't get me wrong, it is a good school. But I would highly caution people choosing IUB over most of the other schools in the T1 as IUB faces strong in state competition from IUI (location and decent reputation) and Notre Dame (strong reputation). Very few other schools in the T1 face that form of instate competition in relation to jobs available (re: CA is extremely comeptitive, but the job market is large enough to absorb Stanford/Berkeley/UCLA/USC).

Also, if you plan on taking the degree out of state, you need to ask practicing attorneys in the market you want what they think before deciding to attend (even on a full ride). I think some prospective students may be suprirsed at what they find.[/quote]

With the 5-6 % Art III clerks I think its safe to say IU places around 10-15% in NLJ 250. Now I agree thats not anywhere close to some other places

[kings84_wr]

There are recent students at Latham, Arnold and Porter, Kirkland, and Jones Day. That is Big law . . .

ny or chi? (I'm assuming chi). Kirkland Chi is awesome.

so i stand corrected, there are 4 big law alums. but note that these are huge exceptions and not the rule. if you aspire to work at those places and you are thinking of attending IU, you should re-think about it.

I do agree and even top 10% is not a guarantee (as a former top 10% who transferred and did not get big law I think I know first hand)

[downstream]

IUB is in an odd position because it does not, in my opinion have a true "home market."

You could say that the home market is Indianapolis but so many IUB kids come from all over the country that not all of them really want to stay in Indiana so it isn't quite a perfect fit. Additionally, IU-Indy has a greater number of kids that want to stay in Indy and Indy firms realize this and are provincial. Don't let the previous poster fool you, Indy has biglaw. Barnes & Thornburg, Baker Daniels and Ice Miller have offices all over the country and are well regarded. I know IUB folks that landed the best firms in the respective market in Detroit, Louisville, Cinci, etc.

Chicago is tough from *every* school, this is a city that has roughly 25% of the summer associate positions that it had in 2008. NYC and DC have bounced back, Chicago has not and may not ever. The "big" Chicago firms have scaled back the number of schools they visit for OCI which makes it even tougher. Jenner, Mayer Brown, Sidley, Winston and Kirkland are not visiting as many schools as they used to and are able to pick off the top of the class (that wants Chicago) at NU, UChicago and Michigan, the three schools that own the Chicago market. It is considerably easier to get a v15 in NYC these days than a v50 in Chicago.

However, Indiana folks are at each of those firms and will continue to be at each of those firms (I know 2L's with callbacks/offers at several of them). The same is true for Jones Day, Arnold & Porter, Latham & Watkins, Skadden and plenty of others. There is no "trick" to getting a job and a lot of it is out of the career office's hands. I'd be surprised, no, shocked, if a top 10%, ILJ kid at IUB wasn't getting callbacks unless they were going for a totally foreign market relative to their home/previous experience or relied solely on OCI which is a bad idea at every law school.

My only advice:
1) Try hard to get a 1L summer gig in the city you want for your 2L summer, it makes a big difference.
2) Don't rely on mass mail, that doesnt work. Find alumni and work through them.
3) Work your ass off as a 1L

IUB is an awesome place to go to law school. I would argue that the job prospects are truly no better at Notre Dame, WUSTL or UIUC and the other threads on here seem to underscore that sentiment. One difference is that IUB is better on scholarship money than those 3 schools and, in my opinion, offers a substantially better quality of life which is really nothing to sneeze at when you are in the throws of 1L year.

The mistake is not going to law school as the previous poster intimated, it's expecting Biglaw no matter what. Sometimes personality can really hurt someone even if they are top 10%- no hard grade cutoff is going to work in this economy, firms can be choosier than they have ever been before. Go into it with eyes open on this and don't assume that you will get Chicago biglaw if you are in the top 10% of IUB. But keep in mind that I would say the exact same thing about Illinois, Notre Dame and probably even Michigan from what I read on these things.

[Gail]

When does schlarship information come for IUB? With admission or much later after? I'm estimating my time constraints for financial aid.

[b-dazzled]

Vault's law school rankings based on employment, Maurer is top 15:https://www.vault.com/wps/portal/usa/ed ... aw-ranking

[c-monster]

When does schlarship information come for IUB? With admission or much later after? I'm estimating my time constraints for financial aid.

Mine came with the admission letter. And they have rolling admissions, so the earlier you apply, the earlier you will (hopefully) know about scholarships.

[omninode]

Vault's law school rankings based on employment, Maurer is top 15:https://www.vault.com/wps/portal/usa/ed ... aw-ranking

This is interesting but it does not indicate employment numbers. Per the description on the page:

Vault surveyed nearly 400 hiring partners, hiring committee members, associate interviewers and recruiting professionals across the country on which law schools best prepare their graduates to achieve in the firm environment. With 58% of law school graduates entering private practice, Vault's law school rankings fill an important gap with their unique emphasis on employability.

Vault surveyed only those people who directly assess the value of law school graduates in the real world once they enter the workforce- those individuals responsible for evaluating and hiring law school students. The respondents--who represent over 100 law firms-- were advised to consider the following factors in their rankings: research and writing skills; knowledge of legal doctrine; possession of other relevant knowledge (e.g., science for IP lawyers); and ability to manage a calendar and work with an assistant.

Nothing in there about actual hiring rates.

[Gail]

Unless you can get into the T-14, you're not increasing your chances by much at BigLaw by going elsewhere.


120k scholarship >>>> 2% better chance at BigLaw.

IUB seems like a great school. If I get in, I'd be happy to attend, and take my chances with the large amount of career options I could have without that big 200k loan debt hanging on my head like an albatross (sp?).

[c-monster]

Unless you can get into the T-14, you're not increasing your chances by much at BigLaw by going elsewhere.


120k scholarship >>>> 2% better chance at BigLaw.

IUB seems like a great school. If I get in, I'd be happy to attend, and take my chances with the large amount of career options I could have without that big 200k loan debt hanging on my head like an albatross (sp?).

I agree. It depends on what you want to do, and money is a big concern. That being said, the only reason I'm at IU is because of $120k. I only applied because they waived my fee. Not to say it's a bad school. From my experience, it's a very good school. But I'm from Texas and I just never thought about it. There are a lot of people in the same boat I am.