Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions Forum

[Sandro]

I question many of your assertions. Many.

[danquayle]

alright but median at WUSTL/Illinois you are exactly drowning in big law offers. Is a median IUb grad at that much of a disadvantage than a WUSTL/Illinois grad considering the IUb grad has a full ride ?

I agree. WUSTL graduates at median only have a slight advantage outside of the midwest market. Their placement outside the midwest is bigger and has always been. And I am sorry, but if you mention IUB and WUSTL to a lawyer outside of the midwest a majority are going to know little about IUB, but a majority will know that WUSTL is a good school. This may not even have anything to do with the amount of lawyers necessarily, but IUB is known as a state school with a history of good basketball schools, and Wash U is known as a private academically prestigious midwestern school.

Pretty much though, if you are median, and quite possibly not even top 10% and you are from outside the midwest, your situation is pretty screwed in most situations at WUSTL and IUB. The only difference I think is that WUSTL non top 10 percent kids will compete with local T2 kids for jobs who have already been establishing themselves in the area for three years, while a non-10% kid at IUB will compete with t4 and t3 kids from the local area as well. Employers are going to wonder why the hell you went to IUB if you are looking for a job in a secondary market outside the midwest. Sure, to say that it is a respected school, its students have good metrics, and you went there with a substantial scholarship are all good reasons. But when you are interviewing, you can't exactly say that you volunteered in such a such program in this market, or participated in an extra curricular activity in this market and know so many lawyers in this market, and that does not look favorable.

Being a lawyer, is somewhat of being a politician. Politicians represent the people of their hometowns, and they get elected because they are seen as one of the people, and one who can understand their concerns and fight to solve their problems. The same thing can be applied to a lawyer/client relationship. Which is why I understand why an employer in Indy is not going to hire an east coaster, because a client is going to think who the hell is this liberal democrat type representing me?

I am just saying, it is pretty much kids that are from the midwest who are speaking of IUB as having a national reputation, which they still could very well have. But I think people from outside the midwest should be asking attorneys what is their impression or knowledge about any schools one is considering.

I do believe IUB is on the right track attempting to stretch its geographic boundaries, and if it continues to give out massive schollies in the next decade it will increase its student base from outside the midwest, and in return there will be more and more students branching outside the midwest, and eventually it may have a more national reputation. But for all non midwestern kids, you really need to make sure that you are not guinea pigs in this experiment. Will it do one any good if IUb actually becomes a school like WUSTL in fifty years?

Well, I'm a practicing attorney for a big company. Our HQ is in NY. I base my opinion entirely on my experience in dealing with non-Midwestern lawyers. Indiana is a known school. It could be simply because of the Big 10 affiliation, but it is there. Every-single-response I have ever gotten has been pretty much, "Indiana... that's a pretty good school right?" Then they usually say something about the business school or its environmental program. Certainly not a ringing endorsement, but if gives you a decent platform with which to start from. You're not getting that from a Case Western, Cardozo or a Loyola Chicago, however good they are.

Frankly, Wash U is not more well known than Indiana. It's just not. It's better known by legal people and certainly superior to Indiana in the Midwest. But outside of it's region, many are just as likely to confuse it with U Washington. This stuff is silly and whimsical, but that's how reputation works. WUSTL itself only became a highly thought of law school within the last decade or so. The bottom line is you're going to have to gladhand these people if you're not getting placement through OCI. There's way more talking points on Indiana than Wash U.

There's no doubt that Wash U is a better law school with better placement and a far stronger OCI. But if you're the position of having to grind out a job through networking, it will give you nil advantage.

[kings84_wr]

I know its different then the East coast but WUSTL is actually less known on the Westcoast then IU. Many people see the name and assume its in Seattle.

Yeah WUSTL has a very prestigious medical school and is a private school that gamed the rankings to move really high for u-grad.

But I think WUSTL is a bad example for the point you are making. If anything WUSTL suffers from the same non-exposure problems outside the midwest that IU faces.

WUSTL and Illinois median students probably fair moderately better then IU, but the difference is negligible.

In the end any student at Median from any of the schools is going to have a hell of time finding employment outside the midwest.

[seriously????]

I question many of your assertions. Many.

that is fair to question my assertions, for future attorneys need to be critical. My experience with research my differ than others, but for a non midwestern person considering IUB you would be silly not to do research of your own.
here's what my research has shown me...
easy stuff first. never topping the top 50 goto schools for nlj250 law firms. 2nd, having a small number of federal clerkships offered (data also provided by the national law journal).
next, you can use the information the website provides.
it states that its main markets are chi, dc, and it places well in CA and NYC.
Then it states the number of graduates working in respective markets. OK fine and dandy.
Then, it provides a list of employers who hired IUB grads in 09.
I dare you to actually look up those employer's websites. First, see what kind of employers they are: accounting, law firms, public interest, gov't, etc.
Next, go these sites, see where these law firms are from. Then look up who from IUB in 09 is actually working in these sites. You will find that many of these firms are in Indiana, and that an overwhelming majority of these students went to undergrad or had some form of schooling in Indiana already. Then you will see locations in other small places around the midwest, and their bios also indicate that they were previous from the area. Then you will check out the locations that are from chicago, dc, nyc, etc. You will find that there are very few students working at these places, and even some of these places no longer have the 09 graduate working there. And finally, you will find it odd, that when the website says that 10 people are working in DC, but when you look up all the employers and find bios, you can only find two people who graduated from IUB in 09. So what does this discrepancy mean? Are the other 8 doing temp doc review? Did 8 people decide to leave their job after their first year? Or is the website just flat out lying about their placements, because they assume that all of the people checking the site are too lazy to actual look for hard data.
I do find it weird that IUB can tell exactly where all of its graduates are working location wise, but fail to list their employers on that long list that mainly consists of indiana employment. One would think that the website would include all of its employers, especially the ones outside of indy and especially the ones in major markets, since they are trying to prove that indy places well on a national scale.

So again, prove me wrong, because I would love to be proved wrong, because I find the offer extremely tempting, but the numbers do not add up.

[kings84_wr]

I'm interested in the Art. III clerkship numbers, I did not know NLJ gives those?

[seriously????]

look it up, federal clerkships are listed.
and kings, you are actually a prime example of an outsider looking in.
you speak of IUBs reputation, but it obviously did not have a reputation good enough for you. For, you were a top student at IUB and you transferred to a good CA school, because you felt that even being in Law Journal at IUB (and prolly paying less financially) would still put you at a disadvantage finding employment in CA.

[danquayle]

I question many of your assertions. Many.

that is fair to question my assertions, for future attorneys need to be critical. My experience with research my differ than others, but for a non midwestern person considering IUB you would be silly not to do research of your own.
here's what my research has shown me...
easy stuff first. never topping the top 50 goto schools for nlj250 law firms. 2nd, having a small number of federal clerkships offered (data also provided by the national law journal).
next, you can use the information the website provides.
it states that its main markets are chi, dc, and it places well in CA and NYC.
Then it states the number of graduates working in respective markets. OK fine and dandy.
Then, it provides a list of employers who hired IUB grads in 09.
I dare you to actually look up those employer's websites. First, see what kind of employers they are: accounting, law firms, public interest, gov't, etc.
Next, go these sites, see where these law firms are from. Then look up who from IUB in 09 is actually working in these sites. You will find that many of these firms are in Indiana, and that an overwhelming majority of these students went to undergrad or had some form of schooling in Indiana already. Then you will see locations in other small places around the midwest, and their bios also indicate that they were previous from the area. Then you will check out the locations that are from chicago, dc, nyc, etc. You will find that there are very few students working at these places, and even some of these places no longer have the 09 graduate working there. And finally, you will find it odd, that when the website says that 10 people are working in DC, but when you look up all the employers and find bios, you can only find two people who graduated from IUB in 09. So what does this discrepancy mean? Are the other 8 doing temp doc review? Did 8 people decide to leave their job after their first year? Or is the website just flat out lying about their placements, because they assume that all of the people checking the site are too lazy to actual look for hard data.
I do find it weird that IUB can tell exactly where all of its graduates are working location wise, but fail to list their employers on that long list that mainly consists of indiana employment. One would think that the website would include all of its employers, especially the ones outside of indy and especially the ones in major markets, since they are trying to prove that indy places well on a national scale.

So again, prove me wrong, because I would love to be proved wrong, because I find the offer extremely tempting, but the numbers do not add up.

It's not. The "where they went" consists provides only those who self-reported back to the law school. It's not exhaustive.

I'm not going any further into it because its a little too close for home for me. I'm not telling you everyone out of the law school is doing great. In fact, some are doing very, very poorly. But this shouldn't surprise you and its not specific to Indiana Law. It's terrible for many new law grads, irrespective of their alma mater. That's a lot of the reason why I stress being debt free.

[danquayle]

look it up, federal clerkships are listed.
and kings, you are actually a prime example of an outsider looking in.
you speak of IUBs reputation, but it obviously did not have a reputation good enough for you. For, you were a top student at IUB and you transferred to a good CA school, because you felt that even being in Law Journal at IUB (and prolly paying less financially) would still put you at a disadvantage finding employment in CA.

Well duh dude. Tell me one law school where that wouldn't be true. Certainly not Wash U. Maybe not even freaking Michigan/Virginia/Penn/Duke/Cornell/Georgetown/

If you're absolutely certain you want Southern California, there are few schools that are going to position you better there than UCLA. Same thing for Texas.

[seriously????]

ok, i agree with you mr. quayle. I seriously find you to be one of the most real and logical posters on this entire site.

but i do question how they can find out where grads are living, but not where they are working. So if they are saying that 10 are working in a certain market, but are only willing to list the employers where only 2 grads are shown to be working that market, that is weird. So it either means that grads are willing to tell the school that they are working in an area, but refuse to list where they are working. Or, that the makers of the site are too ashamed to list where these other 8 kids are being employed. Or that the data is being made up.

[seriously????]

look it up, federal clerkships are listed.
and kings, you are actually a prime example of an outsider looking in.
you speak of IUBs reputation, but it obviously did not have a reputation good enough for you. For, you were a top student at IUB and you transferred to a good CA school, because you felt that even being in Law Journal at IUB (and prolly paying less financially) would still put you at a disadvantage finding employment in CA.

Well duh dude. Tell me one law school where that wouldn't be true. Certainly not Wash U. Maybe not even freaking Michigan/Virginia/Penn/Duke/Cornell/Georgetown/

If you're absolutely certain you want Southern California, there are few schools that are going to position you better there than UCLA. Same thing for Texas.

Actually, not necessarily. If you look at Wash U's biglaw placement, it has students in CA biglaw firms. Now a bulk of these students were from CA, based on bios, but it does show that several people from CA did well at Wash U and then found major law positions in CA. There are no examples for IUB.

[danquayle]

ok, i agree with you mr. quayle. I seriously find you to be one of the most real and logical posters on this entire site.

but i do question how they can find out where grads are living, but not where they are working. So if they are saying that 10 are working in a certain market, but are only willing to list the employers where only 2 grads are shown to be working that market, that is weird. So it either means that grads are willing to tell the school that they are working in an area, but refuse to list where they are working. Or, that the makers of the site are too ashamed to list where these other 8 kids are being employed. Or that the data is being made up.

You want my honest opinion? I think they're going off two different reporting types. I know for a fact there are several people in my state that are listed in the "overall view" but not the "where they are view." I just think these lists were compiled these by different people at different times. Sometimes they follow up. Sometimes they don't. I see several company names on the list where I know the person working there, but yet they aren't on the "where are they view." Some of those companies listed are not wonderful places, so I really doubt they're withholding the names of jobs they don't deem worthy.

There's also a good deal of movement of people since 2009. Some people have moved on to better jobs. Some people spent a long time trying to find employment and didn't have a job when the law school sent a query as to their employment. A lot of people just refused to cooperate with the school in general - there were plenty of unhappy people at graduation. Some people have, yes, given up. Plenty of people wasted their time and money. But, having been one of the most sour people on the law school during my time there, I can't honestly can't lay that entirely at the school's feet. Could it do a better job in career services? Yes, of course. But again, many law schools could do a better job at that.

Indiana is a savvy law school. They're definitely trying to put the best face forward. There's no doubting that. There's a reason they use averages for a lot of those charts and not 2009. There's probably a reason they haven't refreshed for 2010 yet. But in reporting what they have, they do a lot better than many schools. And I will say Indiana is at the forefront as far as evaluating law schools goes. People like Prof. Henderson and Stake are big names in pushing for more law school transparency.

My first approach is to steer people away from law school altogether. I would suggest that for most people who aren't going T-14 or getting full rides, its not worth the money. But I'm on TLS, and I know most people are going to go anyways, so I won't waste my breath.

[danquayle]

look it up, federal clerkships are listed.
and kings, you are actually a prime example of an outsider looking in.
you speak of IUBs reputation, but it obviously did not have a reputation good enough for you. For, you were a top student at IUB and you transferred to a good CA school, because you felt that even being in Law Journal at IUB (and prolly paying less financially) would still put you at a disadvantage finding employment in CA.

Well duh dude. Tell me one law school where that wouldn't be true. Certainly not Wash U. Maybe not even freaking Michigan/Virginia/Penn/Duke/Cornell/Georgetown/

If you're absolutely certain you want Southern California, there are few schools that are going to position you better there than UCLA. Same thing for Texas.

Actually, not necessarily. If you look at Wash U's biglaw placement, it has students in CA biglaw firms. Now a bulk of these students were from CA, based on bios, but it does show that several people from CA did well at Wash U and then found major law positions in CA. There are no examples for IUB.

Again, its a gamble. All things equal, yes Wash U is better. But all things are not equal. Law school is like being a ticket to the lottery. You can pay a higher price for a ticket with higher odds, but at some point you have to evaluate whether the value added for higher odds are worth the premium you pay. I'd certainly rather have a lottery ticket with 20% odds than one with 5% odds. But would I pay $100,000 for that additional 15%? I don't think I would. To an extent, that's a person choice.

With specific reference to California. It's like buying a 5% ticket over a 1% ticket. Better odds again, but at what price... and if you're THAT certain on California, there are cheaper options that can give you a 10% California ticket,

[seriously????]

again thanks for the honest opinion. i'm pretty much given a sour impression how those stats seem manipulated, but then again law school is a business. however, most businesses protect themselves by putting little statements at the bottom of their adds, so they don't get sued for fraud. i think there are several law schools where they could be sued. perhaps, IUB gets off the hook, because they do give out significant schollies.
but for people who do not land in the top 10 percent, and are scrambling to get back to their original homes outside the midwest, are prolly going to wishh that they took another full ride from a local school, even if its ranking, lord forbid, is not in the t30.

[kings84_wr]

look it up, federal clerkships are listed.
and kings, you are actually a prime example of an outsider looking in.
you speak of IUBs reputation, but it obviously did not have a reputation good enough for you. For, you were a top student at IUB and you transferred to a good CA school, because you felt that even being in Law Journal at IUB (and prolly paying less financially) would still put you at a disadvantage finding employment in CA.

No I completely agree. In fact I was pretty disappointed at the lack of weight IU carried out here. I would assume it has the same problems in NYC and the east coast. But i think its something all Midwest schools face when leaving the midwest (outside of the obvious T-14's). I just think when it comes down to it at median IU and WUSTL are likely the same to hiring partners on the west coast. I really do like WUSTL, I just don't think they have the major hiring power in Cali in this economy. Maybe it was better a few years ago, I don't know.

Maybe I'm wrong, I'm really basing this on my own anecdotal experience and those of other transfers to UCLA.

I was asked a lot of dumb questions by attorney's in CA during OCI. I remember on a callback a guy from Pepperdine asking what tier IU was in and that started a conversation about "random midwest schools" being ranked high.

and I really don't think IU is ever a good choice for NYC big law no matter how good your grades are. Really transferring to a t-14 is the only likely scenario to get big law there.

back to the clerkships:

If its the NLJ numbers I'm thinking of, i think it includes State level and Art III. IU"s art III numbers are probably realllllly low ( like probably 2-3%) but i've never seen a number and always wondered. I assume the Indiana/Kentucky supreme courts hire IU grads a lot, and probably 2-3 get 7th COA and 2-3 indiana/kentucky distr

[AboveTheLawSchool]

When can summer starters expect to get their grade back? September? Or January? (or other)

[kings84_wr]

While Im sure Spoon or one of the other summer starters can answer more specifically, I think I remember summer start grades coming out in October or so.

[Spoonmanners]

While Im sure Spoon or one of the other summer starters can answer more specifically, I think I remember summer start grades coming out in October or so.

Beginning of October. Seems to take about the same time as most tests, taking a little under two months to turn around grades.

[AboveTheLawSchool]

While Im sure Spoon or one of the other summer starters can answer more specifically, I think I remember summer start grades coming out in October or so.

Beginning of October. Seems to take about the same time as most tests, taking a little under two months to turn around grades.

Gracias, just sent my intent to enroll in the program.

[kehoema2]

Hey I really apologize if this has been asked, but I checked briefly and didn't see anything. Generally speaking, are the apartments that you have experience with unfurnished?

I figure that's probably the case, and it turns out I can get some free furniture right now so any input is helpful.

Thanks.

[kings84_wr]

So it looks like the clerkships numbers went up a little bit with the rank. Really nice to see. IU actually outplaced WUSTL. I think art III were around 4-5% and total clerkships (liking Indy/Ken supreme courts) like 7-8%.

That means around 10 or so students got Art III. which is a lot better then i thought. Maybe the 7th. Cir. COA judge on campus will help more lol.

[pcvmeli]

Just submitted my intent to enroll. I know you have talked a little bit about housing before, but are there other nice apartment buildings that are primarily law students besides Poolside? Or do you have other recommendations? I am trying to decide from South America without being able to visit. Does anyone know if the Grant Properties allow undergrads? Or is it just grad students? This will be interesting picking a place without seeing it first.

[beidoun]

I know IU-B just increased their tuition, is this a regularly occurring increase? Should we expect an increase every year in tuition?

[thmgoodw]

and I really don't think IU is ever a good choice for NYC big law no matter how good your grades are. Really transferring to a t-14 is the only likely scenario to get big law there.

I completely agree if are talking about straight out of law school. Even back in the day when "times were good", I didn't know anyone that got into the top NYC shops from IU (whereas a few did get into top Cali firms). I managed to swing an interview at Davis Polk (I submitted my resume online as obviously they don't come to campus) and despite my love affair with Buxbaum (a former Davis Polk associate) I couldn't get pass the call-back stage.

Now, if one wanted to work in say, Philadelphia, then IMHO it shouldn't be that difficult as long as you can convince them you wanted to work there. The top Philly shops of Morgan Lewis and Dechert aren't the school snobs (because they really can't be) that NYC firms often are, and IU compares favorably to Villanova, Temple and Rutgers, all of which send large numbers to these firms. If you do well for a couple of years at MLB or Dechert then with a good economy one could certainly transition to NYC (either in their NYC offices or NYC firms). When I was at MLB we even had an associate from 3rd/4th tier New York Law School (came in as a lateral after 2 years). He turned out to be a star securities associate, but IMHO he would have never been given that shot at comparable firms in some more white-shoe cities.

Now that I think about it, if I was a 2nd year law student now and wanted to work in NYC, I would target the sizeable NY offices of firms that are either headquarted outside of the more white-shoe cities, or headquarted in the midwest (and hence more likely to be familiar with IU), rather than the homegrown NYC firms.

[seriously????]

and I really don't think IU is ever a good choice for NYC big law no matter how good your grades are. Really transferring to a t-14 is the only likely scenario to get big law there.

I completely agree if are talking about straight out of law school. Even back in the day when "times were good", I didn't know anyone that got into the top NYC shops from IU (whereas a few did get into top Cali firms). I managed to swing an interview at Davis Polk (I submitted my resume online as obviously they don't come to campus) and despite my love affair with Buxbaum (a former Davis Polk associate) I couldn't get pass the call-back stage.

Now, if one wanted to work in say, Philadelphia, then IMHO it shouldn't be that difficult as long as you can convince them you wanted to work there. The top Philly shops of Morgan Lewis and Dechert aren't the school snobs (because they really can't be) that NYC firms often are, and IU compares favorably to Villanova, Temple and Rutgers, all of which send large numbers to these firms. If you do well for a couple of years at MLB or Dechert then with a good economy one could certainly transition to NYC (either in their NYC offices or NYC firms). When I was at MLB we even had an associate from 3rd/4th tier New York Law School (came in as a lateral after 2 years). He turned out to be a star securities associate, but IMHO he would have never been given that shot at comparable firms in some more white-shoe cities.

Now that I think about it, if I was a 2nd year law student now and wanted to work in NYC, I would target the sizeable NY offices of firms that are either headquarted outside of the more white-shoe cities, or headquarted in the midwest (and hence more likely to be familiar with IU), rather than the homegrown NYC firms.

Wow, are you trying to convince me to goto IUB? These arguments make me believe that I would be top of the class, easy.
First, the markets where all schools have some sort of a shot, are the biggest ones, becuase the clients and lawyers are from all over the country. This includes NYC, DC, CHI, LA. You are very stupid to think that IU grads would have an easier chance to get into philly biglaw than NYC. First off, there are none, or very few existing IUB grads in Philly biglaw. Second, hardly no one knows of IUB in philly. Third, the logic is stupid that if philly firms take Villanova and Temple grads, then they are likely to take IUB grads, because IUB's metrics are better. They hire from philly law schools, because guess what, they want kids from the area, who are not trying to get into philly firms so that they can catapult themselves to NYC. That is why even Penn kids get shutout from biglaw. And that is also why IU-Indianapolis places better in biglaw than IUB in indianapolis.
And finally, there is no location at all that is easy for IUB grads to get biglaw. You are seriously stupid...no, scratch that, just really young and naieve. Again, IUB does not crack the NLJ250 top 50 law schools...ever.
Now, if you have incredible ties (father is a hiring philly biglaw partner) then by all means philly biglaw may be easy to get, otherwise you would have to have strong ties, and be at least top ten percent of your class to get that position.
But hey, try it...call up philly biglaw firms, explain to them how highly ranked IUB is after they say that they did not know Indiana had a law school, and say you are interested in a six figure starting position because biglaw is easy to get for IUB grads in Philly.

PS- I promise to forward you a check for 20 dollars, if you can find me any IUB grad from the last five years working philly biglaw.

And PS, the NYC firms are not snobs.Brooklyn law has better overall biglaw placement than IUB, and they are far down the pecking order in NYC. They, like Philly, hire from local schools. Which is why it is good, even for T14 schools, to have a major market. Damn shame, IUB does not have one.

[seriously????]

alright, my apologies for the careless reading, but if you truly were working biglaw in Philly, you were the only one. but i do still think your opinion is irrational saying philly biglaw is easier and more familiar with IUB than NYC biglaw. your advice to target midwest biglaw headquarters is a valid idea, but to target the philly market without a history in philly is foolish, unless you are top five percent of the class (then by all means target any market and see how it goes. But if you really worked philly biglaw and graduated in the lastfive years, PM me with proof, and I'll graciously pay.)