Southwestern Law

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
californiauser
Posts: 1184
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:10 am

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby californiauser » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:21 am

utlaw2007 wrote:
Danteshek wrote:
ejjones wrote:
Danteshek wrote:SW's at graduation employment rate has held pretty steady at 85%, which I think is pretty good. I don't think it's changed significantly because of recession. SW in general is less affected than the schools that rely more on big firm hiring..

In general, SW does a better job than most schools at preparing you for practice. This tends to be true of lower ranked schools in general but is especially true at SW. SW is basically a skills school. There is much more emphasis here on getting real world experience and learning practical skills. This is the real difference between SW and some of the higher ranked schools.


Where did you find that number?


US News and World. Also confirmed by the dean. Our dip to T4 two years ago was attributable to that number falling by a fraction of a % point.



85% is awfully high. It's more like 42.6% according to LST

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=southwestern


Non-Discounted Cost: $258,900
:shock:

Quarter of a million dollars for a 40% chance of becoming a shitlawyer. Wow.

Shema
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:14 am

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby Shema » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:53 pm

The bottom line is that the economy is shabby right now and the the best opportunities are going first to those at the top of their law school class and with the better "ranked" law schools. That being said Southwestern is a strong law school to graduate from in Southern CA but you have to do your research (check out Arrow on TLS), preparation (E&Es ) and reading (like Getting to Maybe) EARLY so you can be ahead of the competition.

ALSO I have recommended to a few other TLSers a 1L tutor that through grants works with 0L's in the first several weeks before the Fall semester begins free of charge (sort of like law preview but with a lot more detaile and personalized because it is one-on-one and he has specific experience at Southwestern). 5 or 6 of them have met him this week and they say that so far it has been helpful. The tutor is actually someone I worked with when I was a 1L at loyola and he helped me land in the top 10% of my 1L class. He works exclusively with 1L's and most of his experience is at Southwest, Loyola, USC and Pepperdine Law Schools. If you might be interested in working with him free over the summer I can send you his contact information.

User avatar
nickb285
Posts: 1500
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:25 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby nickb285 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:04 pm

Shema wrote:The bottom line is that the economy is shabby right now and the the best opportunities are going first to those at the top of their law school class and with the better "ranked" law schools. That being said Southwestern is a strong law school to graduate from in Southern CA but you have to do your research (check out Arrow on TLS), preparation (E&Es ) and reading (like Getting to Maybe) EARLY so you can be ahead of the competition.

ALSO I have recommended to a few other TLSers a 1L tutor that through grants works with 0L's in the first several weeks before the Fall semester begins free of charge (sort of like law preview but with a lot more detaile and personalized because it is one-on-one and he has specific experience at Southwestern). 5 or 6 of them have met him this week and they say that so far it has been helpful. The tutor is actually someone I worked with when I was a 1L at loyola and he helped me land in the top 10% of my 1L class. He works exclusively with 1L's and most of his experience is at Southwest, Loyola, USC and Pepperdine Law Schools. If you might be interested in working with him free over the summer I can send you his contact information.


Or, you could put that time and energy into retaking the LSAT and getting into a school that has a better than 50% chance of getting you a job as an attorney, and a better than 6% chance of getting you the kind of job that will let you repay sticker.

hiima3L
Posts: 837
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:26 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby hiima3L » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:58 pm

Shema wrote: That being said Southwestern is a strong law school to graduate from in Southern CA


Southern Californian here.

This is 100% nonsense. Southwestern is not respected whatsoever. Hell, plenty of people assume it's another unaccredited CA-only school.

Shema
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:14 am

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby Shema » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:12 pm

hiima3L wrote:
Shema wrote: That being said Southwestern is a strong law school to graduate from in Southern CA


Southern Californian here.

This is 100% nonsense. Southwestern is not respected whatsoever. Hell, plenty of people assume it's another unaccredited CA-only school.


Your statement is simply untrue. I know far too many successful and wealthy attorneys who have graduated from the school (if one is to qualify wealth as success) . Funny thing is that if you want to be a good attorney you can go to any law school and work hard to hone your craft. If you want pedigree then you probably won't go to Southwestern. But contrary to Western opinion there are things more important than pedigree or prestige. Respect is what people have not law schools and it cannot be purchased a top tier law school. School rankings, other people's "assumptions" (as you call them) and a host of other shallow concepts can be purchased at top law schools but respect is not one of them because respect is what we as people do and not what a law school passes on to us. Go top tier or go low tier whether or not you are respected is a personal matter. What you speak of is not respect it is EGO.

californiauser
Posts: 1184
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:10 am

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby californiauser » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:07 pm

Shema wrote:
hiima3L wrote:
Shema wrote: That being said Southwestern is a strong law school to graduate from in Southern CA


Southern Californian here.

This is 100% nonsense. Southwestern is not respected whatsoever. Hell, plenty of people assume it's another unaccredited CA-only school.


Your statement is simply untrue. I know far too many successful and wealthy attorneys who have graduated from the school (if one is to qualify wealth as success) . Funny thing is that if you want to be a good attorney you can go to any law school and work hard to hone your craft. If you want pedigree then you probably won't go to Southwestern. But contrary to Western opinion there are things more important than pedigree or prestige. Respect is what people have not law schools and it cannot be purchased a top tier law school. School rankings, other people's "assumptions" (as you call them) and a host of other shallow concepts can be purchased at top law schools but respect is not one of them because respect is what we as people do and not what a law school passes on to us. Go top tier or go low tier whether or not you are respected is a personal matter. What you speak of is not respect it is EGO.


How many successful millenial lawyers do you know who've recently graduated from Southwestern (not that your anecdotal claims matters)? No one cares about your boomer neighbor who graduated from Southwestern in 1990 and paid $750 in tuition per year. The economy we're now facing is nothing like the legal economy of the 70s, 80s, 90s, and early 2000s. Southwestern is an objective dump. It is under no circumstance worth 1/4 of a million dollars. It's not personal. Any school that gives you less than a 50% chance of becoming a lawyer should be shut down.

User avatar
North
Posts: 4041
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:09 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby North » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:06 am

Shema wrote:Your statement is simply untrue. I know far too many successful and wealthy attorneys who have graduated from the school (if one is to qualify wealth as success) . Funny thing is that if you want to be a good attorney you can go to any law school and work hard to hone your craft. If you want pedigree then you probably won't go to Southwestern. But contrary to Western opinion there are things more important than pedigree or prestige. Respect is what people have not law schools and it cannot be purchased a top tier law school. School rankings, other people's "assumptions" (as you call them) and a host of other shallow concepts can be purchased at top law schools but respect is not one of them because respect is what we as people do and not what a law school passes on to us. Go top tier or go low tier whether or not you are respected is a personal matter. What you speak of is not respect it is EGO.

LOL. Get out of here with this garbage. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

hiima3L
Posts: 837
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:26 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby hiima3L » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:15 am

Shema wrote:
hiima3L wrote:
Shema wrote: That being said Southwestern is a strong law school to graduate from in Southern CA


Southern Californian here.

This is 100% nonsense. Southwestern is not respected whatsoever. Hell, plenty of people assume it's another unaccredited CA-only school.


Your statement is simply untrue. I know far too many successful and wealthy attorneys who have graduated from the school (if one is to qualify wealth as success) . Funny thing is that if you want to be a good attorney you can go to any law school and work hard to hone your craft. If you want pedigree then you probably won't go to Southwestern. But contrary to Western opinion there are things more important than pedigree or prestige. Respect is what people have not law schools and it cannot be purchased a top tier law school. School rankings, other people's "assumptions" (as you call them) and a host of other shallow concepts can be purchased at top law schools but respect is not one of them because respect is what we as people do and not what a law school passes on to us. Go top tier or go low tier whether or not you are respected is a personal matter. What you speak of is not respect it is EGO.


No.

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby Danteshek » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:32 am

North wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:I thought Danteshek was a Loyola grad.

Looks like he transferred.

:|


I remember Southwestern fondly. The 1L professors were great. Unfortunately, the faculty "bench" at SW is not very deep. With the exception of the entertainment law (and to a lesser extent criminal law) curriculum, the upper level offerings are rather unimpressive. (This applies to all small law schools to a greater or lesser extent.)

Early on I recognized that I was primarily interested in business/business law and decided to leave.

I've now attended law school at Southwestern (1L), Loyola (2L, 3L), and Georgetown (LLM-Securities and Financial Regulation). From fall 2013 to summer 2015 I will be in Russia on a fellowship studying Public Law at Higher School of Economics.

Just remember, it's all about the journey, not the destination... Feel free to PM me if you want to talk more...

PRgradBYU
Posts: 1419
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:04 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby PRgradBYU » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:55 am

Shema wrote:Your statement is simply untrue. I know far too many successful and wealthy attorneys who have graduated from the school (if one is to qualify wealth as success) . Funny thing is that if you want to be a good attorney you can go to any law school and work hard to hone your craft. If you want pedigree then you probably won't go to Southwestern. But contrary to Western opinion there are things more important than pedigree or prestige. Respect is what people have not law schools and it cannot be purchased a top tier law school. School rankings, other people's "assumptions" (as you call them) and a host of other shallow concepts can be purchased at top law schools but respect is not one of them because respect is what we as people do and not what a law school passes on to us. Go top tier or go low tier whether or not you are respected is a personal matter. What you speak of is not respect it is EGO.


So painfully anecdotal. The reality is that only 42.6% of Southwestern's students are employed in full-time legal jobs that probably only pay out $60k/yr., regardless of how much respect said students may or may not receive.

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby Danteshek » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:13 am

PRgradBYU wrote:
Shema wrote:Your statement is simply untrue. I know far too many successful and wealthy attorneys who have graduated from the school (if one is to qualify wealth as success) . Funny thing is that if you want to be a good attorney you can go to any law school and work hard to hone your craft. If you want pedigree then you probably won't go to Southwestern. But contrary to Western opinion there are things more important than pedigree or prestige. Respect is what people have not law schools and it cannot be purchased a top tier law school. School rankings, other people's "assumptions" (as you call them) and a host of other shallow concepts can be purchased at top law schools but respect is not one of them because respect is what we as people do and not what a law school passes on to us. Go top tier or go low tier whether or not you are respected is a personal matter. What you speak of is not respect it is EGO.


So painfully anecdotal. The reality is that only 42.6% of Southwestern's students are employed in full-time legal jobs that probably only pay out $60k/yr., regardless of how much respect said students may or may not receive.


No one knows the precise reality. LST is at best a tool with which you can compare schools against each other on a few (imperfect) metrics. In my view the best way to figure out what's going on is to jump on Linkedin or ask people who know the people involved personally.

I will say that 60k is a fine salary for a lawyer starting out. Remember that this person is not directly responsible to the client and who does not have the means or reputation to attract his own business.

User avatar
North
Posts: 4041
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:09 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby North » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:34 am

Danteshek wrote:LST is at best a tool with which you can compare schools against each other on a few (imperfect) metrics. In my view the best way to figure out what's going on is to jump on Linkedin or ask people who know the people involved personally.


That's the best way? Are you kidding?

Danteshek wrote:I will say that 60k is a fine salary for a lawyer starting out.

(58% of grads not making 60k (high end), instead are unemployed, at Starbucks, or bumbling around as solos.)

($258,900 in non-dischargeable debt)


But yeah, just Google some LinkedIn profiles. That's where you'll find the real info.

Danteshek always delivers.

Shema
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:14 am

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby Shema » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:18 am

North wrote:
Shema wrote:Your statement is simply untrue. I know far too many successful and wealthy attorneys who have graduated from the school (if one is to qualify wealth as success) . Funny thing is that if you want to be a good attorney you can go to any law school and work hard to hone your craft. If you want pedigree then you probably won't go to Southwestern. But contrary to Western opinion there are things more important than pedigree or prestige. Respect is what people have not law schools and it cannot be purchased a top tier law school. School rankings, other people's "assumptions" (as you call them) and a host of other shallow concepts can be purchased at top law schools but respect is not one of them because respect is what we as people do and not what a law school passes on to us. Go top tier or go low tier whether or not you are respected is a personal matter. What you speak of is not respect it is EGO.

LOL. Get out of here with this garbage. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.


of course I don't... you know everything and you have such a way with words. You are definitely the smartest guy in the room.

User avatar
North
Posts: 4041
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:09 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby North » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:52 am

Shema wrote:of course I don't... you know everything and you have such a way with words. You are definitely the smartest guy in the room.

Solid comeback.

It's about getting a job. Less than half of Southwestern grads get a job as a lawyer. That wouldn't be a problem if it didn't cost a quarter million dollars for that "opportunity." But it does. Ego and respect or whatever you were going on about has nothing to do with it. Law school is an investment. Southwestern is a bad investment.

User avatar
nickb285
Posts: 1500
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:25 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby nickb285 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:55 am

North wrote:It's about getting a job.


Psh, elitist.

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby Danteshek » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:19 pm

North wrote:
Danteshek wrote:LST is at best a tool with which you can compare schools against each other on a few (imperfect) metrics. In my view the best way to figure out what's going on is to jump on Linkedin or ask people who know the people involved personally.


That's the best way? Are you kidding?

Danteshek wrote:I will say that 60k is a fine salary for a lawyer starting out.

(58% of grads not making 60k (high end), instead are unemployed, at Starbucks, or bumbling around as solos.)

($258,900 in non-dischargeable debt)


But yeah, just Google some LinkedIn profiles. That's where you'll find the real info.

Danteshek always delivers.



I don't know anyone with that much debt. I know this subject is taboo on TLS, but many students in LA have financial support from their parents or have savings from previous employment. This is doubly the case at schools like SW and Loyola where there are more older students. The armenian and persian communities are not poor.

Nearly every law school graduate has a Linkedin profile. It takes a little digging, but you can absolutely get a fair picture of the employment situation by looking at Linkedin (assuming your network is large enough to look at the profiles). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out when someone is unemployed.

User avatar
nickb285
Posts: 1500
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:25 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby nickb285 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:54 pm

Danteshek wrote: I know this subject is taboo on TLS, but many students in LA have financial support from their parents or have savings from previous employment.


Who would also help them out if they went to a good school.

Nearly every law school graduate has a Linkedin profile. It takes a little digging, but you can absolutely get a fair picture of the employment situation by looking at Linkedin (assuming your network is large enough to look at the profiles). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out when someone is unemployed.


If every single LS grad has a Linkedin, keeps it updated, and makes it available, with details, then yes, you could figure out who is working. But you won't know how much they're making, or if their job actually requires bar passage (because if it doesn't, their JD was a waste of time and money).

Yes, some Loyola and other crap school grads will get jobs. But what is the point in not retaking or in going to one of those schools when you could go somewhere better with just a little bit of effort? Why handicap yourself by not going to the best school you possibly can?

User avatar
North
Posts: 4041
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:09 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby North » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:07 pm

nickb285 wrote:what is the point in not retaking or in going to one of those schools when you could go somewhere better with just a little bit of effort? Why handicap yourself by not going to the best school you possibly can?

Because it's easy.

User avatar
nickb285
Posts: 1500
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:25 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby nickb285 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:09 pm

North wrote:Because it's easy.


Which is fine, if Danteshek wants to be lazy, they can. I just have a problem with them counseling other people to be lazy by assuring them that their laziness will work out for the best.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:59 pm

Danteshek wrote:
PRgradBYU wrote:
Shema wrote:Your statement is simply untrue. I know far too many successful and wealthy attorneys who have graduated from the school (if one is to qualify wealth as success) . Funny thing is that if you want to be a good attorney you can go to any law school and work hard to hone your craft. If you want pedigree then you probably won't go to Southwestern. But contrary to Western opinion there are things more important than pedigree or prestige. Respect is what people have not law schools and it cannot be purchased a top tier law school. School rankings, other people's "assumptions" (as you call them) and a host of other shallow concepts can be purchased at top law schools but respect is not one of them because respect is what we as people do and not what a law school passes on to us. Go top tier or go low tier whether or not you are respected is a personal matter. What you speak of is not respect it is EGO.


So painfully anecdotal. The reality is that only 42.6% of Southwestern's students are employed in full-time legal jobs that probably only pay out $60k/yr., regardless of how much respect said students may or may not receive.


No one knows the precise reality. LST is at best a tool with which you can compare schools against each other on a few (imperfect) metrics. In my view the best way to figure out what's going on is to jump on Linkedin or ask people who know the people involved personally.

I will say that 60k is a fine salary for a lawyer starting out. Remember that this person is not directly responsible to the client and who does not have the means or reputation to attract his own business.


*is unemployed or working at Starbucks*
*gets on linkedin to advertise his unemployment or barista job to the world*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby Danteshek » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:12 am

You are just choosing to ignore the point. It's simple to tell if someone on Linkedin is unemployed. Maybe that internship didn't last 18 months. Or maybe the person hasn't updated his profile in a long time. In SW's case were are talking about 200 to 300 students or so for a particular class. It's not that hard to do a search that will pick up the vast majority of these people.

I've been on Linkedin for 8 years. I consider it indispensable for a variety of reasons that I won't get into here.

I have not advised anyone to be lazy with the LSAT or attend any particular law school (or law school in general - I don't claim to know what is best for every person). I am here to answer any specific questions people might have (probably via PM)

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:44 pm

Danteshek wrote:You are just choosing to ignore the point. It's simple to tell if someone on Linkedin is unemployed. Maybe that internship didn't last 18 months. Or maybe the person hasn't updated his profile in a long time. In SW's case were are talking about 200 to 300 students or so for a particular class. It's not that hard to do a search that will pick up the vast majority of these people.

I've been on Linkedin for 8 years. I consider it indispensable for a variety of reasons that I won't get into here.

I have not advised anyone to be lazy with the LSAT or attend any particular law school (or law school in general - I don't claim to know what is best for every person). I am here to answer any specific questions people might have (probably via PM)


Why would somebody who is unemployed upon graduation be on linkedin in the first place? Do you know what "self-selection bias" is?

Also, if you think "a lot of people at this school are rich, so the average debt is definitely much lower than sticker" is going to calm people's fears about attending, then you have a problem. If I was a middle-class or lower-middle class kid I'd put even less stock in the school's already poor employment rate if I knew many of my classmates were likely to be rich kids with not only 250K to throw away but all the connections that usually come with having 250K to throw away.

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby Danteshek » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:41 pm

Yes, I know what self-selection bias is. Linkedin is still the best source of information on graduates.

You can factor in scholarships that people receive with the resources many people have at their disposal, and the situation is a lot less scary than you make it out to be.

Yes, if you are financing 100% COL at sticker, I agree you have a problem. I just don't know many people for whom that is actually the case. Usually people either have some type of scholarship or have some type of family support. A lot of the time both are present.

Regards.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:02 pm

Danteshek wrote:Yes, I know what self-selection bias is. Linkedin is still the best source of information on graduates.

You can factor in scholarships that people receive with the resources many people have at their disposal, and the situation is a lot less scary than you make it out to be.

Yes, if you are financing 100% COL at sticker, I agree you have a problem. I just don't know many people for whom that is actually the case. Usually people either have some type of scholarship or have some type of family support. A lot of the time both are present.

Regards.


I'm not sure why you think a self-selected group of people, who have may or may not updated their profiles, and post no salaries or information on whether their positions are part-time, temporary, or JD required is better than the comprehensive data collected by LST that provides a total number of graduates and a total number of non-responders. I'm also not sure why students should be contacting members of this self-selected group and taking it on faith that the person is not spinning some BS in order to make themselves look better.

The issue is not whether the overall debt situation is bad (on the data we have, it's bad no matter what you say). An applicant should care about their own debt. The problem is that when you have a lot of rich kids, those kids tend to have connections other kids don't, and an unknown number of those 45% FTLT jobs may be opportunities that would be unavailable to other members of the class.

I wouldn't even engage you if I didn't think prospective students might be reading this thread. It's bordering on dangerous right now.

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: Southwestern Law

Postby Danteshek » Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:10 pm

If you aren't connected in the community in which you hope to practice - in this case, Los Angeles - I would question your choice to enter this field. At the end of the day, your success will be based on your ability to attract clients.

I'm sorry if this is unpleasant for you to hear.

PS. You seem to be laboring under the illusion that education is an instrument of social mobility. Unfortunately, at these prices, that's a near impossible goal. The US does not support education in the way education is supported in many other countries.

Regards.




Return to “Ask a Law Student / Graduate”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests