UVA Law Students Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
albanach
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby albanach » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:18 pm

shadowofjazz wrote:
albanach wrote:
pertristis wrote:Personally, the "enhancement" is not worth $67.


Perhaps you have access to another laptop. For anyone who does not, I'd consider the loaner option to easily be worth $67. My new laptop died a couple of days before my CivPro exam. I had a spare laptop so it wasn't a problem. If I didn't have a spare or access to a loaner, it would have been messy.
Step 1 - buy laptop from
Best Buy.
Step 2 - take exam
Step 3 - return laptop


Sure that's an option. It still involves a couple of hours out your day during 1L fall finals plus possibly buying (for $10) Microsoft Office from Courts and Commerce and installing it. Then setting the laptop up for the UVA network, and installing Dropbox. I'd bet you're out four hours minimum by the time you buy it, download updates, set it up. If you value your time during finals at more than $17/hour the loaner is the better bet.

I've worked in IT since before some classmates were in grade school. I could do any of the above blindfolded, but frankly I'd easily pay $67 to have someone else take care of it for me.

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pertristis
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby pertristis » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:13 pm

albanach wrote:
shadowofjazz wrote:
albanach wrote:
pertristis wrote:Personally, the "enhancement" is not worth $67.


Perhaps you have access to another laptop. For anyone who does not, I'd consider the loaner option to easily be worth $67. My new laptop died a couple of days before my CivPro exam. I had a spare laptop so it wasn't a problem. If I didn't have a spare or access to a loaner, it would have been messy.
Step 1 - buy laptop from
Best Buy.
Step 2 - take exam
Step 3 - return laptop


Sure that's an option. It still involves a couple of hours out your day during 1L fall finals plus possibly buying (for $10) Microsoft Office from Courts and Commerce and installing it. Then setting the laptop up for the UVA network, and installing Dropbox. I'd bet you're out four hours minimum by the time you buy it, download updates, set it up. If you value your time during finals at more than $17/hour the loaner is the better bet.

I've worked in IT since before some classmates were in grade school. I could do any of the above blindfolded, but frankly I'd easily pay $67 to have someone else take care of it for me.


I do value my time at more than $17/hour, but that's the wrong calculation, as it assumes a 100% chance the laptop will explode right before (or worse, during) finals. Let's assume that maybe 5-10% of laptops will do so over the course of the three years. This might be a bit high, but whatever. We'll use a 10% chance, so 9:1 odds. In order to make it a worthwhile bet, the value of the extra services needs to be worth at least $670 (if I'm doing my math right).

I assume that the rental value of a laptop, or the time necessary to go out, buy a computer, and set it up, or whatever, isn't worth $670. Basically, the remainder of value has to be made up with peace of mind that you don't have to go do that shit if things blow up. Whether one's peace of mind is worth that much probably depends on risk averse one is. I'm not particularly risk averse, so it's not worth it to me. For those who are more risk averse, it might well be.

persia1921
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby persia1921 » Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:42 am

What is the general consensus on buying supplements. Is waiting to here from the prof the best option? Did you find supplements more helpful or redundant in general?

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PepperJack
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby PepperJack » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:27 am

persia1921 wrote:What is the general consensus on buying supplements. Is waiting to here from the prof the best option? Did you find supplements more helpful or redundant in general?

Waiting for professor. You might have a professor who wrote one. Professors may even recommend one.

WahooLaw24
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby WahooLaw24 » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:35 am

PepperJack wrote:
persia1921 wrote:What is the general consensus on buying supplements. Is waiting to here from the prof the best option? Did you find supplements more helpful or redundant in general?

Waiting for professor. You might have a professor who wrote one. Professors may even recommend one.


I agree with this, with the one caveat being I don't see how you could go wrong with the Glannon E&E for Civ Pro. Get the latest edition -- even if it costs $50 or a bit more, I think it's very much worth it.

Overall, though, I wasn't big on supplements. The Civ Pro one I mentioned was great, and Chemerinsky for Con Law is also incredibly thorough and yet easy to understand. Other than that, I don't know that anything I picked up really helped me that much.

CvilleRunner
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby CvilleRunner » Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:32 pm

WahooLaw24 wrote:
PepperJack wrote:
persia1921 wrote:What is the general consensus on buying supplements. Is waiting to here from the prof the best option? Did you find supplements more helpful or redundant in general?

Waiting for professor. You might have a professor who wrote one. Professors may even recommend one.


I agree with this, with the one caveat being I don't see how you could go wrong with the Glannon E&E for Civ Pro. Get the latest edition -- even if it costs $50 or a bit more, I think it's very much worth it.

Overall, though, I wasn't big on supplements. The Civ Pro one I mentioned was great, and Chemerinsky for Con Law is also incredibly thorough and yet easy to understand. Other than that, I don't know that anything I picked up really helped me that much.


I agree with waiting generally and asking your peer advisors if they have recommendations or supplements you can look through to see which style you prefer. However, if you're looking to pick something up early, there is a Lowe supplement for Crim Law that may be worth picking up since he is one of the casebook authors (and as far as I know all the crim classes use the casebook written by the UVA Law professors). I also found the Contracts E&E very helpful, especially for understanding the UCC. I also thought the "Acing Civil Procedure" and "Acing Criminal Law" were unbelievably helpful - they don't go into as much detail as the Glannon or Chemerinksy books, but for basic understanding and applying the rules, they are superb. I also second buying the latest versions of the supplements - I had the previous edition of the Glannon book and I was missing some important recent cases.

In terms of commercial outlines (like Gilbert and Emmanuel), one reason that might be worth waiting is that some of the them have tables in them that explain where things are that are tied to specific casebooks (like pp. 847-930 in the casebook are in section 3 of the outline) - so if you don't know what casebook your professor will be using it might be worth waiting. It depends how much you like commercial outlines, I used them a lot first semester but not second semester.

I also got a Kaplan 1L Edge Program collection of outlines for free a couple of weeks into the semester and I think I paid $20 for a Barbri collection of first year outlines. So if you aren't using them to supplement your reading right away, then you can wait and get outlines for super cheap. There is also a supplement sale as you get closer to 1L finals, so if you want to read the casebook all year and then get supplements to help with outlines, then you can get a deal when PILA starts doing fundraising.

I found supplements really helpful early on when I hadn't yet figured out how to read cases. They also were kind of like a safety blanket in terms of me feeling like I was doing something, even if they were somewhat redundant. I think this led me to overpurchase supplements, so keep in mind you can always buy more supplements but they are all final sale at our bookstore.

Lastly, I think some of the most helpful materials in terms of studying for the exams are the outlines on the outline bank, so also keep in mind that you will have those as resources, so two supplements, the Barbri and Kaplan outlines, and two old outlines for class is simply too much material to get through so plan ahead.

Heat
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby Heat » Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:57 pm

I concur with the general wait sentiment expressed above. Most of the time you can get the professor to recommend you one they like or have written. Also, I think even reading one supplement for each class is likely to be overkill. If you find about halfway through the semester that you are struggling to understand a class, start outlining it. If you still don't really get it, buy a supplement.

There are two detriments to supplements as a 1L. First, by the time you should be studying hard you won't want to add significantly more material. Honestly this is mostly due to stress levels, rather than lack of time. Second, you risk thinking "Rather than understand this now, I'll learn it when I read the supplement". This is only a problem because professors teach things the way they want you to know them and its not uncommon for supplements to present things in a slightly different way.

I think I only used two supplements 1L year and I did fine. I used way more 2L year, since I mostly had to learn from scratch.

My Advice in a Nutshell: Wait to get supplements and even then only go crazy using them if you are struggling in a specific topic.

persia1921
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby persia1921 » Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:00 pm

And I am correct in thinking that you would all agree there is zero point to reading any of it before the semester starts?

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5ky
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby 5ky » Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:23 pm

persia1921 wrote:And I am correct in thinking that you would all agree there is zero point to reading any of it before the semester starts?


yes

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Yardbird
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby Yardbird » Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:38 pm

How is Quinn Curtis for Corporations (L&B)? The other options are Kordana or Harrison for non-L&B Corporations. Also, Schauer or Mitchell for Evidence? Hayashi or Doran for Federal Income Tax?

On an entirely different note, class times are up on SIS and here: http://rabi.phys.virginia.edu/mySIS/CS2 ... &Group=LAW

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Br3v
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby Br3v » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:39 pm

5ky wrote:
persia1921 wrote:And I am correct in thinking that you would all agree there is zero point to reading any of it before the semester starts?


yes


My thoughts (which many share) on this question is that it can help, but you have plenty of time to learn it anyways so it is not necessary. Personally, I think it would be useful to familiarize yourself a little but if you don't have the time this summer (or have more exciting things to do) do not feel like you have to. Your first few weeks at school will pretty much be the figurative equivalent of repeatedly running into a brick wall regardless if you get a little bit of a head start. The biggest potential negative that occur is that you waste time learning something you will never be taught in class or you become too attached to certain terms that are different from the terms your professor prefers to use.

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Br3v
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby Br3v » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:57 pm

How much does it matter what classes a rising 2L takes this semester? Do firms care?

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Yardbird
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby Yardbird » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:58 pm

Br3v wrote:
5ky wrote:
persia1921 wrote:And I am correct in thinking that you would all agree there is zero point to reading any of it before the semester starts?


yes


My thoughts (which many share) on this question is that it can help, but you have plenty of time to learn it anyways so it is not necessary. Personally, I think it would be useful to familiarize yourself a little but if you don't have the time this summer (or have more exciting things to do) do not feel like you have to. Your first few weeks at school will pretty much be the figurative equivalent of repeatedly running into a brick wall regardless if you get a little bit of a head start. The biggest potential negative that occur is that you waste time learning something you will never be taught in class or you become too attached to certain terms that are different from the terms your professor prefers to use.
I'm the opposite side of this. I think there's no point in "familiarizing" yourself with material when it might not even be covered. My torts class spent two days on intentional torts, other sections spent weeks. Any time spent familiarizing myself on intentional torts would have been pointless. The best advice I can give is wait until you know which professor you have and what their syllabus is and what supplement they recommend (or we recommend for that prof). Then go through the supplement as you go through the material, following along on the syllabus (as needed). My best 1L grade was in ConLaw and I referenced the Chemerinsky supplement maybe 3 times and specifically on one confusing subject (substantive due process). In the end, you need to find out what works best for YOU and there is no way to know what that is before the semester starts.

If you really want to do something this summer, skim through Getting to Maybe. Perhaps glance through LEEWS. Your time would also be spent well setting up things for mass mailing firms in December because you WONT have time for that during the semester.

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Yardbird
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby Yardbird » Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:04 pm

Br3v wrote:How much does it matter what classes a rising 2L takes this semester? Do firms care?
I was told by certain IP firms that taking patent law in the fall would be a wise decision. They also recommended taking the PatBar but I don't plan on taking that unless I know I'm going to a firm that requires it.

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5ky
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby 5ky » Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:19 pm

Br3v wrote:How much does it matter what classes a rising 2L takes this semester? Do firms care?


A few looked at mine when I said I wanted to do corporate for sure

CvilleRunner
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby CvilleRunner » Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:27 pm

shadowofjazz wrote:
Br3v wrote:
5ky wrote:
persia1921 wrote:And I am correct in thinking that you would all agree there is zero point to reading any of it before the semester starts?


yes


My thoughts (which many share) on this question is that it can help, but you have plenty of time to learn it anyways so it is not necessary. Personally, I think it would be useful to familiarize yourself a little but if you don't have the time this summer (or have more exciting things to do) do not feel like you have to. Your first few weeks at school will pretty much be the figurative equivalent of repeatedly running into a brick wall regardless if you get a little bit of a head start. The biggest potential negative that occur is that you waste time learning something you will never be taught in class or you become too attached to certain terms that are different from the terms your professor prefers to use.
I'm the opposite side of this. I think there's no point in "familiarizing" yourself with material when it might not even be covered. My torts class spent two days on intentional torts, other sections spent weeks. Any time spent familiarizing myself on intentional torts would have been pointless. The best advice I can give is wait until you know which professor you have and what their syllabus is and what supplement they recommend (or we recommend for that prof). Then go through the supplement as you go through the material, following along on the syllabus (as needed). My best 1L grade was in ConLaw and I referenced the Chemerinsky supplement maybe 3 times and specifically on one confusing subject (substantive due process). In the end, you need to find out what works best for YOU and there is no way to know what that is before the semester starts.

If you really want to do something this summer, skim through Getting to Maybe. Perhaps glance through LEEWS. Your time would also be spent well setting up things for mass mailing firms in December because you WONT have time for that during the semester.


I followed the directions of Planet Law School and looked at the Contracts E&E and it was a total waste of time. You just don't know what your professors will cover and I didn't remember anything by the time classes started.

I thought that Getting to Maybe, LEEWS, and Law School Confidential were worth reading (and listening to) before law school because they actually gave me some good tips on how to prepare for class and what to be ready for once school started.

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First Offense
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby First Offense » Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:32 pm

shadowofjazz wrote:How is Quinn Curtis for Corporations (L&B)? The other options are Kordana or Harrison for non-L&B Corporations. Also, Schauer or Mitchell for Evidence? Hayashi or Doran for Federal Income Tax?

On an entirely different note, class times are up on SIS and here: http://rabi.phys.virginia.edu/mySIS/CS2 ... &Group=LAW

I had Schauer for Con Law - nice guy, but I learned more from Chemerinsky than I did from his class.

Mitchell for Evidence is a no-brainer. He's awesome.

albanach
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby albanach » Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:30 pm

First Offense wrote:
shadowofjazz wrote:How is Quinn Curtis for Corporations (L&B)? The other options are Kordana or Harrison for non-L&B Corporations. Also, Schauer or Mitchell for Evidence? Hayashi or Doran for Federal Income Tax?

On an entirely different note, class times are up on SIS and here: http://rabi.phys.virginia.edu/mySIS/CS2 ... &Group=LAW

I had Schauer for Con Law - nice guy, but I learned more from Chemerinsky than I did from his class.

Mitchell for Evidence is a no-brainer. He's awesome.


Doran was truly fantastic for property, it's a real coup for the school to have him back. I'd take him again in a heartbeat.

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sundance95
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby sundance95 » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:30 pm

#1 reason why you shouldn't try to learn substantive law during your 0L summer: your professor might not agree with whatever books you read, and it's harder to unlearn something than to learn it for the first time.

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Cavalier
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby Cavalier » Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:10 pm

Don't waste time with supplements as a 0L (and personally I wouldn't even use them once in law school unless there's one written by your professor). Exams aren't until December, and you'll cover everything needed for exams in your classes and assigned reading, so there's no advantage to starting now. I would recommend skimming the various "how to do well in law school" guides on TLS (which are far better than anything you'll read in a book except Getting to Maybe). Going into law school already knowing a few legal doctrines won't help, but knowing how an exam works and what makes a good answer will enable you to focus on what's important in lectures and reading materials.

albanach
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby albanach » Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:52 pm

Cavalier wrote:Don't waste time with supplements as a 0L (and personally I wouldn't even use them once in law school unless there's one written by your professor). Exams aren't until December, and you'll cover everything needed for exams in your classes and assigned reading, so there's no advantage to starting now. I would recommend skimming the various "how to do well in law school" guides on TLS (which are far better than anything you'll read in a book except Getting to Maybe). Going into law school already knowing a few legal doctrines won't help, but knowing how an exam works and what makes a good answer will enable you to focus on what's important in lectures and reading materials.


I would say that if you have torts with Abraham or Armacost, it's worth getting Abraham's torts supplement. If you have Abraham, it gives insight into his view on the topics covered in class; if you have Armacost she, in the past at least, has followed it very closely.

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chem
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby chem » Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:56 pm

I hope I can get a TWR only schedule, all year through

cfr1225
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby cfr1225 » Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:27 pm

chem wrote:I hope I can get a TWR only schedule, all year through


You can always have a TWR only schedule. Just don't show up to Monday and Friday classes. Post-1L, who cares.

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North
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby North » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:32 am

Anybody take Federal Pretrial Litigation with Rottenborn last year? Tell me things.

LadyMary
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby LadyMary » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:29 am

persia1921 wrote:And I am correct in thinking that you would all agree there is zero point to reading any of it before the semester starts?


Most people will tell you not to do any sort of prep. Personally, I wish I had. I do not suggest reading huge hornbooks because your prof can't cover everything and it will just be a waste of time. But, I would suggest getting the "Acing" series for all of your first semester classes (Torts, Civ Pro, Crim, and Contracts). They are really easy to read and give you a good overview of each course. And they are helpful when it comes to the exam. I really wish I would have read those before classes started.




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