UVA Law Students Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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thesealocust
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby thesealocust » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:20 am

armedwithamind wrote:
5ky wrote:
armedwithamind wrote:2Ls and 3Ls how has UVA placed in NYC comparatively to its peers (M/P)


Worse than Penn and better than Mich? That's my guess, but nobody is going to have a clear answer for you on that. I'm 100% sure it has to be worse than Penn, though.


Do you have any anecdotes of people getting NYC median or below?


Lots, especially right around median. But some struck out, and below median probably more struck out in NYC than landed something.

It's hard to look at 'placement' in a vacuum, because of self selection - NYC is probably the primary goal for many at Penn, while it's more frequently DC for people at UVA. The data I've seen suggests Penn still has a slight advantage (i.e. with marginally worse grades you can get the same level of firms) but it's a very narrow gap. UVA places students at the best firms in NYC, and large numbers of them (I think most years something like 1/3 of our graduating class takes the NY bar exam).

I wouldn't choose Penn over UVA if the only reason was a perceived placement advantage in NYC, though I'd have to think long and hard about Columbia/NYU vs. UVA if I knew I wanted to gun for biglaw in NYC.

efin12
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby efin12 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:28 am

thesealocust wrote:
armedwithamind wrote:
5ky wrote:
armedwithamind wrote:2Ls and 3Ls how has UVA placed in NYC comparatively to its peers (M/P)


Worse than Penn and better than Mich? That's my guess, but nobody is going to have a clear answer for you on that. I'm 100% sure it has to be worse than Penn, though.


Do you have any anecdotes of people getting NYC median or below?


Lots, especially right around median. But some struck out, and below median probably more struck out in NYC than landed something.

It's hard to look at 'placement' in a vacuum, because of self selection - NYC is probably the primary goal for many at Penn, while it's more frequently DC for people at UVA. The data I've seen suggests Penn still has a slight advantage (i.e. with marginally worse grades you can get the same level of firms) but it's a very narrow gap. UVA places students at the best firms in NYC, and large numbers of them (I think most years something like 1/3 of our graduating class takes the NY bar exam).

I wouldn't choose Penn over UVA if the only reason was a perceived placement advantage in NYC, though I'd have to think long and hard about Columbia/NYU vs. UVA if I knew I wanted to gun for biglaw in NYC.


Is there anyone in this thread that wants/wanted biglaw in NYC and had to make that decision between Columbia/NYU v. UVA? How did you decide on UVA?

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thesealocust
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby thesealocust » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:35 am

Cost could be a big factor. While CCN/HYS place better than UVA, they're both intrinsically more expensive and less likely to toss money at people. Coming out of law school with less debt should be a major factor for people, since it means less of a financial setback if you miss (or hate) biglaw and building a cushion faster even if you land there.

Also beer and softball.

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pjo
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby pjo » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:34 am

thesealocust wrote:
armedwithamind wrote:
5ky wrote:
armedwithamind wrote:2Ls and 3Ls how has UVA placed in NYC comparatively to its peers (M/P)


Worse than Penn and better than Mich? That's my guess, but nobody is going to have a clear answer for you on that. I'm 100% sure it has to be worse than Penn, though.


Do you have any anecdotes of people getting NYC median or below?


Lots, especially right around median. But some struck out, and below median probably more struck out in NYC than landed something.

It's hard to look at 'placement' in a vacuum, because of self selection - NYC is probably the primary goal for many at Penn, while it's more frequently DC for people at UVA. The data I've seen suggests Penn still has a slight advantage (i.e. with marginally worse grades you can get the same level of firms) but it's a very narrow gap. UVA places students at the best firms in NYC, and large numbers of them (I think most years something like 1/3 of our graduating class takes the NY bar exam).

I wouldn't choose Penn over UVA if the only reason was a perceived placement advantage in NYC, though I'd have to think long and hard about Columbia/NYU vs. UVA if I knew I wanted to gun for biglaw in NYC.


I somewhat disagree with this. I went through OGI this year, and I found (not personally, but from talking with friends) that NYC was much more difficult to land than is perceived in this thread. I know very few people who landed NYC at median (but lots of people with non-NYC biglaw jobs at median). Maybe it's because of people self-selecting DC, but I found firms like Fried Frank/Milbank/Schultze to be really difficult to land at or around median whereas, it's my understanding that at NYC, Columbia and Penn those firms will extend callbacks to students at or even slightly below median. If you're above median (even slightly), you should have basically no problem landing some NYC big firm from UVA though.

I really don't understand why people don't get this because it was all too blatant to me, but where UVA really excels is placing in secondary markets. You can seriously land the best/biggest firm SA even at below median if you are from a city like Charlotte/St. Louis/Tampa/Dallas/Cleveland etc. This is largely because UVA law grads are 1) spread throughout the country (probably more so than any other T14) and 2) have a tremendous amount of loyalty to UVA and desperately want to recruit more UVA ppl to their city. I really don't know any other school where the alums love the school so much. I've talked with people from Harvard and Yale and it seems to be the norm to just trash talk the school/experience. I've even had UVA professors that went to those schools trash the school in class. I have never even once personally heard a UVA alum talk badly about the school. In fact, it's almost always the opposite, where they can't quit talking/reminiscing about their time here.

To make a long story short: I think it's pretty clear that, statistically, you have an overall better chance of landing biglaw from Penn out of the MVP schools. In the top 1/3 though, your chances are probably the same from all of them. I have to imagine that where Penn really beats us is placing their median students in NYC biglaw. I think UVA is better at placing students in secondary markets though, and if you're from a secondary market, your chances of getting biglaw are VERY good if you're in the median range (3.35 - 3.25). There are also a few firms that tend to really like people from UVA: Hogan Lovells, Jones Day, Alston and Bird, just to name a few off the top of my head.

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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby 005618502 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:14 pm

pjo wrote:
I somewhat disagree with this. I went through OGI this year, and I found (not personally, but from talking with friends) that NYC was much more difficult to land than is perceived in this thread. I know very few people who landed NYC at median (but lots of people with non-NYC biglaw jobs at median). Maybe it's because of people self-selecting DC, but I found firms like Fried Frank/Milbank/Schultze to be really difficult to land at or around median whereas, it's my understanding that at NYC, Columbia and Penn those firms will extend callbacks to students at or even slightly below median. If you're above median (even slightly), you should have basically no problem landing some NYC big firm from UVA though.

I really don't understand why people don't get this because it was all too blatant to me, but where UVA really excels is placing in secondary markets. You can seriously land the best/biggest firm SA even at below median if you are from a city like Charlotte/St. Louis/Tampa/Dallas/Cleveland etc. This is largely because UVA law grads are 1) spread throughout the country (probably more so than any other T14) and 2) have a tremendous amount of loyalty to UVA and desperately want to recruit more UVA ppl to their city. I really don't know any other school where the alums love the school so much. I've talked with people from Harvard and Yale and it seems to be the norm to just trash talk the school/experience. I've even had UVA professors that went to those schools trash the school in class. I have never even once personally heard a UVA alum talk badly about the school. In fact, it's almost always the opposite, where they can't quit talking/reminiscing about their time here.

To make a long story short: I think it's pretty clear that, statistically, you have an overall better chance of landing biglaw from Penn out of the MVP schools. In the top 1/3 though, your chances are probably the same from all of them. I have to imagine that where Penn really beats us is placing their median students in NYC biglaw. I think UVA is better at placing students in secondary markets though, and if you're from a secondary market, your chances of getting biglaw are VERY good if you're in the median range (3.35 - 3.25). There are also a few firms that tend to really like people from UVA: Hogan Lovells, Jones Day, Alston and Bird, just to name a few off the top of my head.


I dont know anything about NYC biglaw, but I can say I know more 1Ls than I can count on both hands with 1L SA positions at some of the best firms in secondary markets. So I will agree that UVA kills it in secondary markets. (LA, Birmingham, Houston/Dallas, Atlanta, etc.).

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plenipotentiary
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby plenipotentiary » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:35 pm

pjo wrote:I somewhat disagree with this. I went through OGI this year, and I found (not personally, but from talking with friends) that NYC was much more difficult to land than is perceived in this thread.


I think TLS members overemphasize the fact that you don't need ties to get NYC. Ties definitely help; at the very least, they give you something easy to talk about. More importantly, because firms don't make a real profit on first year associates, they need to be convinced that you're going to stick around, at least for a little while. A lot of people bid on NYC as a Last Resort; they didn't really want to be there, and it showed. To convert a callback to an offer, you need a smooth answer about why you want to work in NY that doesn't sound insincere or naive.

I know people on the left side of the curve with firm jobs in NY, so getting NYC from median is totally doable if you have all your ducks in a row and if you can make a credible case for being there.

WahooLaw24
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby WahooLaw24 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:13 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:
pjo wrote:
I somewhat disagree with this. I went through OGI this year, and I found (not personally, but from talking with friends) that NYC was much more difficult to land than is perceived in this thread. I know very few people who landed NYC at median (but lots of people with non-NYC biglaw jobs at median). Maybe it's because of people self-selecting DC, but I found firms like Fried Frank/Milbank/Schultze to be really difficult to land at or around median whereas, it's my understanding that at NYC, Columbia and Penn those firms will extend callbacks to students at or even slightly below median. If you're above median (even slightly), you should have basically no problem landing some NYC big firm from UVA though.

I really don't understand why people don't get this because it was all too blatant to me, but where UVA really excels is placing in secondary markets. You can seriously land the best/biggest firm SA even at below median if you are from a city like Charlotte/St. Louis/Tampa/Dallas/Cleveland etc. This is largely because UVA law grads are 1) spread throughout the country (probably more so than any other T14) and 2) have a tremendous amount of loyalty to UVA and desperately want to recruit more UVA ppl to their city. I really don't know any other school where the alums love the school so much. I've talked with people from Harvard and Yale and it seems to be the norm to just trash talk the school/experience. I've even had UVA professors that went to those schools trash the school in class. I have never even once personally heard a UVA alum talk badly about the school. In fact, it's almost always the opposite, where they can't quit talking/reminiscing about their time here.

To make a long story short: I think it's pretty clear that, statistically, you have an overall better chance of landing biglaw from Penn out of the MVP schools. In the top 1/3 though, your chances are probably the same from all of them. I have to imagine that where Penn really beats us is placing their median students in NYC biglaw. I think UVA is better at placing students in secondary markets though, and if you're from a secondary market, your chances of getting biglaw are VERY good if you're in the median range (3.35 - 3.25). There are also a few firms that tend to really like people from UVA: Hogan Lovells, Jones Day, Alston and Bird, just to name a few off the top of my head.


I dont know anything about NYC biglaw, but I can say I know more 1Ls than I can count on both hands with 1L SA positions at some of the best firms in secondary markets. So I will agree that UVA kills it in secondary markets. (LA, Birmingham, Houston/Dallas, Atlanta, etc.).


As an 0L who would love to get home to a secondary market, you two have brought me great comfort, even if just for a moment lol.

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mindarmed
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby mindarmed » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:23 pm

Thanks for all of the responses. I'm a super splitter looking for a place to ED. I grew up in NYC and would like to practice in NYC post LS

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Tom Joad
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby Tom Joad » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:38 pm

If somebody puts food out in the hallway in Withers Brown, can anybody eat it?

005618502
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby 005618502 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:20 pm

Tom Joad wrote:If somebody puts food out in the hallway in Withers Brown, can anybody eat it?


Also curious....

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Tom Joad
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby Tom Joad » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:32 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:If somebody puts food out in the hallway in Withers Brown, can anybody eat it?


Also curious....

There was a whole tray of Jimmy Johns sitting there about 9pm. Did I pass on a free dinner?

envisciguy
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby envisciguy » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:35 pm

Tom Joad wrote:If somebody puts food out in the hallway in Withers Brown, can anybody eat it?


I've wondered this too. I've passed so many boxes of pizza...

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Tom Joad
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby Tom Joad » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:40 pm

Shoutout to the guy I saw drinking a Coors in the gunner pit today.

juzam_djinn
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby juzam_djinn » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:53 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:
pjo wrote:
I somewhat disagree with this. I went through OGI this year, and I found (not personally, but from talking with friends) that NYC was much more difficult to land than is perceived in this thread. I know very few people who landed NYC at median (but lots of people with non-NYC biglaw jobs at median). Maybe it's because of people self-selecting DC, but I found firms like Fried Frank/Milbank/Schultze to be really difficult to land at or around median whereas, it's my understanding that at NYC, Columbia and Penn those firms will extend callbacks to students at or even slightly below median. If you're above median (even slightly), you should have basically no problem landing some NYC big firm from UVA though.

I really don't understand why people don't get this because it was all too blatant to me, but where UVA really excels is placing in secondary markets. You can seriously land the best/biggest firm SA even at below median if you are from a city like Charlotte/St. Louis/Tampa/Dallas/Cleveland etc. This is largely because UVA law grads are 1) spread throughout the country (probably more so than any other T14) and 2) have a tremendous amount of loyalty to UVA and desperately want to recruit more UVA ppl to their city. I really don't know any other school where the alums love the school so much. I've talked with people from Harvard and Yale and it seems to be the norm to just trash talk the school/experience. I've even had UVA professors that went to those schools trash the school in class. I have never even once personally heard a UVA alum talk badly about the school. In fact, it's almost always the opposite, where they can't quit talking/reminiscing about their time here.

To make a long story short: I think it's pretty clear that, statistically, you have an overall better chance of landing biglaw from Penn out of the MVP schools. In the top 1/3 though, your chances are probably the same from all of them. I have to imagine that where Penn really beats us is placing their median students in NYC biglaw. I think UVA is better at placing students in secondary markets though, and if you're from a secondary market, your chances of getting biglaw are VERY good if you're in the median range (3.35 - 3.25). There are also a few firms that tend to really like people from UVA: Hogan Lovells, Jones Day, Alston and Bird, just to name a few off the top of my head.


I dont know anything about NYC biglaw, but I can say I know more 1Ls than I can count on both hands with 1L SA positions at some of the best firms in secondary markets. So I will agree that UVA kills it in secondary markets. (LA, Birmingham, Houston/Dallas, Atlanta, etc.).


LA as in los angeles? Is that a secondary market? While on the subject, would you mind sharing what firm/gpa? I got shut out w/ pretty good grades

dixon02
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby dixon02 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:05 pm

To all of the above: yes, you can eat the food that's left out in WB. That's why people leave it there.

JRustle
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby JRustle » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:38 pm

JXander wrote:Are there any current UVA students who are (interested in) pursuing public service employment? If so, are you involved in any of UVA's programs/clinics? UVA's PI offerings look incredible out of almost any school into which I have looked. I would love to hear a current student's perspective on this area.


Yes and yes.

TBH while we have what are in my opinion great resources in this area, if I had known before coming what I know now, I would've looked a lot harder at schools in NY and Chicago. Being in an enormous city just offers so much more opportunity and diversity in this area than charlottesville does. Charlottesville has more than enough for the kids that want to do it, but if your interest is such that you are merely describing it as "public interest" rather than something a bit more specific like prosecutor or public defendre, I think you might benefit from being somewhere that has 100x more options.

I still would've picked UVA though.

005618502
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby 005618502 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:50 pm

.

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5ky
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby 5ky » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:35 am

juzam_djinn wrote:
LA as in los angeles? Is that a secondary market? While on the subject, would you mind sharing what firm/gpa? I got shut out w/ pretty good grades


Anecdotes aside, 1L SAs are still a very tough get, and the vast majority of people don't get them. You shouldn't be discouraged if you didn't get one, and nobody should really expect one.

WahooLaw24
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby WahooLaw24 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:36 am

Can anyone in this thread speak to what's it like for students at UVA who live with their SO during 1L (direct experiences or just what you've witnessed are more than welcome)? Obviously things will vary from relationship to relationship, but in general I'm concerned about the social scene. Are most social events coming right through the law school? Are the ones that aren't (i.e. parties, trips to the Corner) going to be dominated by talk of law school anyway? Are outsiders generally welcomed? How rare is this situation?

Any advice, anecdotes, etc. are welcome, and feel free to talk about all aspects of the situation, not just the social scene.

I really appreciate it guys, thanks.

albanach
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby albanach » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:30 am

WahooLaw24 wrote:Can anyone in this thread speak to what's it like for students at UVA who live with their SO during 1L (direct experiences or just what you've witnessed are more than welcome)? Obviously things will vary from relationship to relationship, but in general I'm concerned about the social scene. Are most social events coming right through the law school? Are the ones that aren't (i.e. parties, trips to the Corner) going to be dominated by talk of law school anyway? Are outsiders generally welcomed? How rare is this situation?

Any advice, anecdotes, etc. are welcome, and feel free to talk about all aspects of the situation, not just the social scene.

I really appreciate it guys, thanks.


What's your SO planning to do while here. My 1L section had many married students most of whom had non-student spouses. For the most part, I think we all greatly enjoy Charlottesville and UVA. Typically, spouses/SOs would be welcomed at just about any social event your section is organizing.

Your SO will likely make their own circle of non law-student friends too. That gives you an opportunity to do stuff outside the confines of law school friends.

I could maybe see a problem if you're bringing someone that's used to life in a big city, but only if there's no buy-in from the other person. If they come here expecting to be happy and enjoy themselves, they're much more likely to actually do that.

WahooLaw24
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby WahooLaw24 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:28 pm

albanach wrote:
WahooLaw24 wrote:Can anyone in this thread speak to what's it like for students at UVA who live with their SO during 1L (direct experiences or just what you've witnessed are more than welcome)? Obviously things will vary from relationship to relationship, but in general I'm concerned about the social scene. Are most social events coming right through the law school? Are the ones that aren't (i.e. parties, trips to the Corner) going to be dominated by talk of law school anyway? Are outsiders generally welcomed? How rare is this situation?

Any advice, anecdotes, etc. are welcome, and feel free to talk about all aspects of the situation, not just the social scene.

I really appreciate it guys, thanks.


What's your SO planning to do while here. My 1L section had many married students most of whom had non-student spouses. For the most part, I think we all greatly enjoy Charlottesville and UVA. Typically, spouses/SOs would be welcomed at just about any social event your section is organizing.

Your SO will likely make their own circle of non law-student friends too. That gives you an opportunity to do stuff outside the confines of law school friends.

I could maybe see a problem if you're bringing someone that's used to life in a big city, but only if there's no buy-in from the other person. If they come here expecting to be happy and enjoy themselves, they're much more likely to actually do that.


She's finishing up a Masters degree, so hopefully working full time. Thanks for the response, and any other advice/insights is greatly appreciated.

005618502
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby 005618502 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:33 pm

WahooLaw24 wrote:
albanach wrote:
WahooLaw24 wrote:Can anyone in this thread speak to what's it like for students at UVA who live with their SO during 1L (direct experiences or just what you've witnessed are more than welcome)? Obviously things will vary from relationship to relationship, but in general I'm concerned about the social scene. Are most social events coming right through the law school? Are the ones that aren't (i.e. parties, trips to the Corner) going to be dominated by talk of law school anyway? Are outsiders generally welcomed? How rare is this situation?

Any advice, anecdotes, etc. are welcome, and feel free to talk about all aspects of the situation, not just the social scene.

I really appreciate it guys, thanks.


What's your SO planning to do while here. My 1L section had many married students most of whom had non-student spouses. For the most part, I think we all greatly enjoy Charlottesville and UVA. Typically, spouses/SOs would be welcomed at just about any social event your section is organizing.

Your SO will likely make their own circle of non law-student friends too. That gives you an opportunity to do stuff outside the confines of law school friends.

I could maybe see a problem if you're bringing someone that's used to life in a big city, but only if there's no buy-in from the other person. If they come here expecting to be happy and enjoy themselves, they're much more likely to actually do that.


She's finishing up a Masters degree, so hopefully working full time. Thanks for the response, and any other advice/insights is greatly appreciated.


PM'd

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bluecrab5448
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby bluecrab5448 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:22 pm

plenipotentiary wrote:
pjo wrote:I somewhat disagree with this. I went through OGI this year, and I found (not personally, but from talking with friends) that NYC was much more difficult to land than is perceived in this thread.


I think TLS members overemphasize the fact that you don't need ties to get NYC. Ties definitely help; at the very least, they give you something easy to talk about. More importantly, because firms don't make a real profit on first year associates, they need to be convinced that you're going to stick around, at least for a little while. A lot of people bid on NYC as a Last Resort; they didn't really want to be there, and it showed. To convert a callback to an offer, you need a smooth answer about why you want to work in NY that doesn't sound insincere or naive.

I know people on the left side of the curve with firm jobs in NY, so getting NYC from median is totally doable if you have all your ducks in a row and if you can make a credible case for being there.

I also think NYC was especially tough to crack this past OGI: there are so many intangibles at work, and a lot comes down to more than grades, like sheer charisma and interviewing ability/preparedness. I'm happy to talk through PM if anyone wants more specific info about targeting NYC at OGI.

lawschoolboundfuture
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby lawschoolboundfuture » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:15 pm

What's the deal with all the school paid positions after graduation? How hard is it to get a job post graduation? what are these schools positions?

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NoodleyOne
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby NoodleyOne » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:50 pm

lawschoolboundfuture wrote:What's the deal with all the school paid positions after graduation? How hard is it to get a job post graduation? what are these schools positions?

They were pretty vague about this at the open house. One person said they tried to model the system after HY, and it was exclusively for people working in PI as fellowships while they do real legal work. Hard to tell though with the lack of transparency.




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