UVA Law Students Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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dailygrind
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby dailygrind » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:22 pm

Yeah, there's definitely more than one way to do well academically in law school. I tend to cobble together Frankensteins made out of my notes and a few outlines that look good to me (preferably ones I've spot-checked for mistakes). It gives me structure to work with, helps me ensure that I've got everything covered, and is less time consuming for me than making my own from scratch. But you gotta do what works for you.

albanach
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby albanach » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:35 am

dailygrind wrote:Yeah, there's definitely more than one way to do well academically in law school. I tend to cobble together Frankensteins made out of my notes and a few outlines that look good to me (preferably ones I've spot-checked for mistakes). It gives me structure to work with, helps me ensure that I've got everything covered, and is less time consuming for me than making my own from scratch. But you gotta do what works for you.


That's pretty my the approach I was suggesting - start with something you put together then pad it from other sources.

There will always be those who cruise through law school because their mind just works that way. I guess I shouldn't have said always. Some people probably can and do score A's using someone else's outline. I'd reckon they're in the minority though.

For the other 90% of us, we need to learn the material, and learning from something you create is typically more effective than reading something someone else put together.

Even if much of what you create is borrowed, at least you're selecting the bits you want to borrow.

005618502
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby 005618502 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:07 am

I was planning to do mock trial, then I decided to just focus on grades this year. If you are interested in mock trial/moot court is it a disadvantage to not do it as a 1L? I didn't know many 1Ls did it but it is looking like it is more common than I thought.

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BruceWayne
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:53 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:I was planning to do mock trial, then I decided to just focus on grades this year. If you are interested in mock trial/moot court is it a disadvantage to not do it as a 1L? I didn't know many 1Ls did it but it is looking like it is more common than I thought.


The truth is that your grades are about all that matters to a firm. But the catch 22 to that is that you don't know what your grades are going to be. If you land below the GPA threshold for a firm, then things like mock trial matter a lot to public interest employers (who you should be aiming for if you end up with a GPA too low for firms). Only you can make that judgment call.

desertlaw
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby desertlaw » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:28 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:I was planning to do mock trial, then I decided to just focus on grades this year. If you are interested in mock trial/moot court is it a disadvantage to not do it as a 1L? I didn't know many 1Ls did it but it is looking like it is more common than I thought.


The truth is that your grades are about all that matters to a firm. But the catch 22 to that is that you don't know what your grades are going to be. If you land below the GPA threshold for a firm, then things like mock trial matter a lot to public interest employers (who you should be aiming for if you end up with a GPA too low for firms). Only you can make that judgment call.


I'd base it on how much good stuff you have on your resume from undergrad or prior experience. Had a few good internships or jobs in/after college? Then don't add up time in 1L with anything but studying. If not, then those EC's could help boost that resume to show you're doing pro bono legal work or getting good trial skills in mock trial.

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michaelm55
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby michaelm55 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:57 pm

Does anybody here know what full UVA tuition feels like? Given your local perspective on employment, is full tuition acceptable?

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pertristis
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby pertristis » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:02 pm

michaelm55 wrote:Does anybody here know what full UVA tuition feels like? Given your local perspective on employment, is full tuition acceptable?


Yes, I know what full tuition feels like. Yes, it hurts.

I'm probably not qualified to say if I think that full tuition is acceptable, though.

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Br3v
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby Br3v » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:52 pm

What did you guys (if you wrote one) write a Why UVA essay about?

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Tom Joad
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby Tom Joad » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:55 pm

My records indicate I didn't write one.

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plenipotentiary
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby plenipotentiary » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:11 pm

michaelm55 wrote:Does anybody here know what full UVA tuition feels like? Given your local perspective on employment, is full tuition acceptable?


It feels scary, but half as much debt would feel scary to me, too. I don't know what paying it back will feel like, but presumably it won't be fun.

I think it's acceptable to pay full tuition at UVA if you want to be a lawyer (and you realize how much that can suck). It's not acceptable if being a lawyer is a secondary goal -- if you just want to be rich or you're going to law school because you don't what else to do with yourself.

I would not recommend sticker at UVA to someone who can't imagine themselves being a lawyer outside of a megafirm. But I wouldn't recommend half-tuition at a lesser law school to that person, either.

Slogan
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby Slogan » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:41 pm

Hi all. What's the consensus on LEEWS? Does it still work with 4-5 page fact pattern questions? is it worth it?

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thesealocust
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby thesealocust » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:58 pm

Slogan wrote:Hi all. What's the consensus on LEEWS? Does it still work with 4-5 page fact pattern questions? is it worth it?


It might be worth exploring LEEWS, but the consensus (back when I was paying attention) was that following its "formula" wasn't the best approach and that it was very long-winded and self righteous; not total snake oil but also not a great signal to noise ratio.

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Law Sauce
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby Law Sauce » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:00 pm

Anyone have a good outline for Walt's bankruptcy class? or tips on supplements?

albanach
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby albanach » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:06 pm

So, where are all the complaints about the lawreg lottery results? Surely someone didn't get any of the 20 classes they picked?

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BruceWayne
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:14 pm

michaelm55 wrote:Does anybody here know what full UVA tuition feels like? Given your local perspective on employment, is full tuition acceptable?


Yes I know. And no it's definitely not.

albanach
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby albanach » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:42 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
michaelm55 wrote:Does anybody here know what full UVA tuition feels like? Given your local perspective on employment, is full tuition acceptable?


Yes I know. And no it's definitely not.


With IBR does it really matter what your tuition is? If you don't get BigLaw, your probably making the same repayments if you are in at sticker or if you have a 50% scholarship.

I figure they'll deal with the tax issue at some point within the next three decades.

slider
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby slider » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:57 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
michaelm55 wrote:Does anybody here know what full UVA tuition feels like? Given your local perspective on employment, is full tuition acceptable?


Yes I know. And no it's definitely not.


I agree.

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anon sequitur
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby anon sequitur » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:22 pm

albanach wrote: Does it even matter with IBR?.


It matters if you're stuck in a job you don't like but can't quit because you need a legal public interest job to qualify for both LRAP and IBR.

It matters if you can't find a legal job that you're happy with, because IBR without LRAP is not a very attractive option. If you think there is even a slight chance you might want to take a private sector job in next decade, be careful. Leaving a public interest job after eight years would mean you have basically paid off none of your original student loan debt because of the way they structure IBR.

I think full sticker price is pretty questionable, but what I'm sure about is that IBR and LRAP aren't enough to dismiss concerns over tuition. Keep in mind that many people leave the legal profession before 10 years, and government jobs are not exactly easy to find.

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pjo
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby pjo » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:28 pm

albanach wrote:So, where are all the complaints about the lawreg lottery results? Surely someone didn't get any of the 20 classes they picked?


Lol. I'm usually "that guy" but I surprisingly got most of what I wanted. It also helped that there were actually more than 4 classes I'm interested in taking in the Spring (not so much this past Fall).

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pjo
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby pjo » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:35 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:I was planning to do mock trial, then I decided to just focus on grades this year. If you are interested in mock trial/moot court is it a disadvantage to not do it as a 1L? I didn't know many 1Ls did it but it is looking like it is more common than I thought.


Grades def. matter the most. At the same time, exmur moot court/ trial ad really aren't huge time commitments. I did it last year as a 1L. It took up about a total of 2 weeks of my time (1 full week to write and research my brief over spring break + 1 week of mooting just about every day + one weekend for the tournament). It was a stressful 2 weeks, but it was also only two weeks. Either way, teams are already set at this point so you can't join now.

Also, it's not a disadvantage to not do it as a 1L, you can always tryout next year. The only advantage is that if you make it as a 1L you don't have to tryout again. Also not a disadvantage from the standpoint of employment so long as you make a journal (which you will so long as you tryout).

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thesealocust
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby thesealocust » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:42 pm

The problem with the sticker price question is that it's high risk, high reward.

If you wanted to do a bullshit economic analysis, then a full-price UVA law degree financed entirely with student loans is, on average, probably the single highest yielding investment a human being of that age is capable of making. A large percentage of each class get 6-figure starting salaries and see income potential increase in time after that. Most of those people didn't have comparable options coming out of law school (like those of us who majored in, oh I don't know, theatre arts?). For somebody who wants biglaw, gets biglaw, then pays down the debt the dollars and cents make it look very favorable.

Having said that, the downside risk is also huge. If you decide to go for biglaw, take out loans for it, and for whatever reason can't land a lucrative job then it's a fuckton of debt to be stuck with and IBR isn't going to be a cure-all.

And as an aside, if you aren't at least comfortable and ideally committed to some time at a big law firm, then the monetary return starts looking very questionable. If you're going to UVA because law school is America's Great Fallback option and your dream job would be staring on the west wing or rescuing baby whales from oil spills then a full debt load may be inadvisable.

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bgdddymtty
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby bgdddymtty » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:48 pm

anon sequitur wrote:
albanach wrote: Does it even matter with IBR?.


It matters if you're stuck in a job you don't like but can't quit because you need a legal public interest job to qualify for both LRAP and IBR.

It matters if you can't find a legal job that you're happy with, because IBR without LRAP is not a very attractive option. If you think there is even a slight chance you might want to take a private sector job in next decade, be careful. Leaving a public interest job after eight years would mean you have basically paid off none of your original student loan debt because of the way they structure IBR.

I think full sticker price is pretty questionable, but what I'm sure about is that IBR and LRAP aren't enough to dismiss concerns over tuition. Keep in mind that many people leave the legal profession before 10 years, and government jobs are not exactly easy to find.

Two different IBR's. Under public interest IBR, if you make 120 on-time payments while in public service jobs, the feds forgive the remainder of your balance with no tax consequences. Under regular IBR, if you pay for 25 years and still aren't paid off, you're also forgiven. The twist is that under current tax law, that debt forgiveness is counted as current income in the year in which it is forgiven, so a person who has $100K forgiven sees his AGI bumped up by $100K that year. As albanach suggested, though, the first folks this will affect won't get tax-bombed for 20 years or so. Once it comes close, congressmen will start getting calls and the law will get fixed.

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pjo
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby pjo » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:38 pm

thesealocust wrote:The problem with the sticker price question is that it's high risk, high reward.

If you wanted to do a bullshit economic analysis, then a full-price UVA law degree financed entirely with student loans is, on average, probably the single highest yielding investment a human being of that age is capable of making. A large percentage of each class get 6-figure starting salaries and see income potential increase in time after that. Most of those people didn't have comparable options coming out of law school (like those of us who majored in, oh I don't know, theatre arts?). For somebody who wants biglaw, gets biglaw, then pays down the debt the dollars and cents make it look very favorable.

Having said that, the downside risk is also huge. If you decide to go for biglaw, take out loans for it, and for whatever reason can't land a lucrative job then it's a fuckton of debt to be stuck with and IBR isn't going to be a cure-all.

And as an aside, if you aren't at least comfortable and ideally committed to some time at a big law firm, then the monetary return starts looking very questionable. If you're going to UVA because law school is America's Great Fallback option and your dream job would be staring on the west wing or rescuing baby whales from oil spills then a full debt load may be inadvisable.


I agree with this. I'd also just add that if you're from a legit secondary market (like Minneapolis, St. Louis, Cleveland, Charlotte: basically somewhere that's a city with a decent amount of law firms) your chances of making biglaw from UVA go up considerably, regardless of your class rank (which in turn makes the full cost decision a less risky investment). IDK if this has been covered, but for the most part OGI this year went something like this (this is very general): Top 1/3 of the class is going to NYC/DC/LA; people that fell between top 1/3 and 2/3 are going home (to their home secondary market that is). Bottom 1/3 (those that landed something) was a total crap shoot. People in the 1/3-2/3 range (basically median, slightly above median, and slightly below median) didn't have a lot of call-backs and/or offers in NYC or DC but I would say most had more than one offer in their home secondary market (if they had one). The people I would say that had it bad were actually those at median with no secondary market ties. It's really incredible how many of my friends came in saying they wanted NYC/DC and now they're going back home to work (although I don't know if this is by choice or because of lack of the DC/NYC option).

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thesealocust
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby thesealocust » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:55 am

pjo wrote:I agree with this. I'd also just add that if you're from a legit secondary market (like Minneapolis, St. Louis, Cleveland, Charlotte: basically somewhere that's a city with a decent amount of law firms) your chances of making biglaw from UVA go up considerably, regardless of your class rank (which in turn makes the full cost decision a less risky investment). IDK if this has been covered, but for the most part OGI this year went something like this (this is very general): Top 1/3 of the class is going to NYC/DC/LA; people that fell between top 1/3 and 2/3 are going home (to their home secondary market that is). Bottom 1/3 (those that landed something) was a total crap shoot. People in the 1/3-2/3 range (basically median, slightly above median, and slightly below median) didn't have a lot of call-backs and/or offers in NYC or DC but I would say most had more than one offer in their home secondary market (if they had one). The people I would say that had it bad were actually those at median with no secondary market ties. It's really incredible how many of my friends came in saying they wanted NYC/DC and now they're going back home to work (although I don't know if this is by choice or because of lack of the DC/NYC option).


This matches my experience and observation very closely. There are always fringe cases and exceptions, but for the average student involved in the process the above is a great summary of potential/expected outcomes.

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Tom Joad
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby Tom Joad » Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:58 pm

Somebody tell me an easy class to take for 1L Spring.




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