UVA Law Students Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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Stringer Bell
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby Stringer Bell » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:46 pm

What time does the first class for each section usually start?

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YCrevolution
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby YCrevolution » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:48 pm

..

uvahooo
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby uvahooo » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:04 pm

YCrevolution wrote:
Stringer Bell wrote:What time does the first class for each section usually start?

Sometime between 08:50 and 09:30 I believe will be the earliest... depending on the day of the week, it might not be until 10:00.


SO GLAD TO BE DONE WITH 1L YEAR. OMGZ.

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esq
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby esq » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:14 pm

thesealocust wrote:There are actually a fair number of firms that focus on tax and employee benefits (which are creatures of the tax code) who come to OGI and have long standing relationships with UVA. It's a wide ranch of niche practices ranging from lobbying to controversy to benefit plan advising, but my guess is there isn't a lot of competition for those firms because they don't have flashy vault names for the most part.

Thanks for the info. Do you know if these firms pay enough for a lawyer to pay his debt down? I assume that tax lawyers don't make as much as the more flashy lawyers.

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thesealocust
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby thesealocust » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:56 pm

esq wrote:
thesealocust wrote:There are actually a fair number of firms that focus on tax and employee benefits (which are creatures of the tax code) who come to OGI and have long standing relationships with UVA. It's a wide ranch of niche practices ranging from lobbying to controversy to benefit plan advising, but my guess is there isn't a lot of competition for those firms because they don't have flashy vault names for the most part.

Thanks for the info. Do you know if these firms pay enough for a lawyer to pay his debt down? I assume that tax lawyers don't make as much as the more flashy lawyers.


The ones I'm referring to are small, competitive, and pay at or near market salaries (150-160K starting). Places like Groom Law Group, Caplin Drysdale, and one other at least that I'm forgetting in DC.
Last edited by thesealocust on Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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vamedic03
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby vamedic03 » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:37 pm

thesealocust wrote:
esq wrote:
thesealocust wrote:There are actually a fair number of firms that focus on tax and employee benefits (which are creatures of the tax code) who come to OGI and have long standing relationships with UVA. It's a wide ranch of niche practices ranging from lobbying to controversy to benefit plan advising, but my guess is there isn't a lot of competition for those firms because they don't have flashy vault names for the most part.

Thanks for the info. Do you know if these firms pay enough for a lawyer to pay his debt down? I assume that tax lawyers don't make as much as the more flashy lawyers.


The ones I'm referring to are small, competitive, and pay at or near market salaries (150-160K starting). Places like Groom Law Group, Caplin Drysdale, and one other at least that I've forgetting in DC.


Ivins, Phillips & Barker... though, they all tend to be fairly selective - they take only a handful of associates every year.

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thesealocust
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby thesealocust » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:43 pm

vamedic03 wrote:Ivins, Phillips & Barker... though, they all tend to be fairly selective - they take only a handful of associates every year.


That's the one!

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esq
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby esq » Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:59 am

thesealocust wrote: The ones I'm referring to are small, competitive, and pay at or near market salaries (150-160K starting). Places like Groom Law Group, Caplin Drysdale, and one other at least that I'm forgetting in DC.

Doesn't sound like a bad gig then. So is there a reason that more legal students aren't running with this? Is it that most law students are disadvantaged with a social science degree and actually need something more like business accounting, finance and the more advanced knowledge of excel spreadsheets and number crunching to hang? Or is it more a case of the subject matter being boring and tedious, which doesn't make sense to me because, in a way, that is the law in general? I guess I'm just trying to understand some of these niche areas that people shy away from a bit better to understand my options early on.

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LLB2JD
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby LLB2JD » Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:37 pm

So for you rising 2Ls, are any of you planning of disposing off your books that you think would be useful for incoming 1Ls? Also, I plan on visiting C'ville from the 16th to 19th to sort out apartment. Anything particular I can do around town? Will the law school be open so I can perhaps just walk around and see the place?

Thanks

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Cavalier
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby Cavalier » Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:45 pm

esq wrote:
thesealocust wrote: The ones I'm referring to are small, competitive, and pay at or near market salaries (150-160K starting). Places like Groom Law Group, Caplin Drysdale, and one other at least that I'm forgetting in DC.

Doesn't sound like a bad gig then. So is there a reason that more legal students aren't running with this? Is it that most law students are disadvantaged with a social science degree and actually need something more like business accounting, finance and the more advanced knowledge of excel spreadsheets and number crunching to hang? Or is it more a case of the subject matter being boring and tedious, which doesn't make sense to me because, in a way, that is the law in general? I guess I'm just trying to understand some of these niche areas that people shy away from a bit better to understand my options early on.

Students shy away from those firms because they have no idea what kind of law they'd like to practice after one year of law school. Many know whether they'd prefer litigation or corporate, but few will know that they want to practice employee benefits or tax. A large firm exposes summers and junior associates to many all sorts of areas of law, so it provides more options for students.

grash
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby grash » Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:50 pm

LLB2JD wrote:So for you rising 2Ls, are any of you planning of disposing off your books that you think would be useful for incoming 1Ls? Also, I plan on visiting C'ville from the 16th to 19th to sort out apartment. Anything particular I can do around town? Will the law school be open so I perhaps just walk around and see the place?

Thanks


To some degree or another you'd be better off waiting until you find out what books and professors you have before you decide to start buying books off people. Some supplements will be better suited to certain profs (and sometimes the profs straight up tell you which those are), and the book your professors assign will be difficult to predict (with the exception of crim - you're probably going to need the latest version of the book that's written entirely by UVA faculty). That said, there are a handful of supplements that are pretty commonly recommended: Abraham's torts book, Chirelstein's contracts book, some form of a recent Glannon for civ pro, Chemerinsky's con law, and Low's Black Letter Law outline. I've got Abraham's, Chemerinsky's, and Low's lying around if you're interested in taking them off my hands (shoot me a PM if so).

The law school's open so you can take a look around. Otherwise, the most common hot spots for law students are the downtown mall and the corner. Dunno if there's really a lot else around Charlottesville to see...all I know about this town is there's a law school, a watering hole, and a place to buy groceries.

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thesealocust
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby thesealocust » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:50 pm

esq wrote:
thesealocust wrote: The ones I'm referring to are small, competitive, and pay at or near market salaries (150-160K starting). Places like Groom Law Group, Caplin Drysdale, and one other at least that I'm forgetting in DC.

Doesn't sound like a bad gig then. So is there a reason that more legal students aren't running with this? Is it that most law students are disadvantaged with a social science degree and actually need something more like business accounting, finance and the more advanced knowledge of excel spreadsheets and number crunching to hang? Or is it more a case of the subject matter being boring and tedious, which doesn't make sense to me because, in a way, that is the law in general? I guess I'm just trying to understand some of these niche areas that people shy away from a bit better to understand my options early on.


lol, your background doesn't matter even a little bit for these kinds of jobs. I know people going or who have gone to these kinds of firms with art backgrounds and not a whiff of business or tax experience. I'm sure if you have something in your past that gave you an interest it would make a great selling point, but it's hardly a requirement.

Also, it's really important that you understand working at a law firm in a tax practice has VERY little to do with excel or number crunching. That's why God invented accountants. Tax lawyers are more involved with answering complex and uncertain areas of the law and arguing about the proper way to treat a transaction, not adding dollars and cents or figuring out the treatment of something after the fact. I'm sure excel comes up, but it's not a daily element of practice.

One reason more people don't go for them is because so few exist. They are very small firms (look them up) with very small summer classes. Also, as Cavalier noted, most students also can't point convincingly to an interest in such a small niche after a year of law school.

It's not really right to say people shy away from them, because that would imply a conscious decision to avoid them. Most people just don't know, so if you can decide on a specialty to at least attempt to pursue it can be advantageous.

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esq
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby esq » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:56 pm

I can always count on TLS to find some answers, thanks guys.

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swinger
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby swinger » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:47 am

thesealocust wrote:
esq wrote:
thesealocust wrote: The ones I'm referring to are small, competitive, and pay at or near market salaries (150-160K starting). Places like Groom Law Group, Caplin Drysdale, and one other at least that I'm forgetting in DC.

Doesn't sound like a bad gig then. So is there a reason that more legal students aren't running with this? Is it that most law students are disadvantaged with a social science degree and actually need something more like business accounting, finance and the more advanced knowledge of excel spreadsheets and number crunching to hang? Or is it more a case of the subject matter being boring and tedious, which doesn't make sense to me because, in a way, that is the law in general? I guess I'm just trying to understand some of these niche areas that people shy away from a bit better to understand my options early on.


lol, your background doesn't matter even a little bit for these kinds of jobs. I know people going or who have gone to these kinds of firms with art backgrounds and not a whiff of business or tax experience. I'm sure if you have something in your past that gave you an interest it would make a great selling point, but it's hardly a requirement.

Also, it's really important that you understand working at a law firm in a tax practice has VERY little to do with excel or number crunching. That's why God invented accountants. Tax lawyers are more involved with answering complex and uncertain areas of the law and arguing about the proper way to treat a transaction, not adding dollars and cents or figuring out the treatment of something after the fact. I'm sure excel comes up, but it's not a daily element of practice.

One reason more people don't go for them is because so few exist. They are very small firms (look them up) with very small summer classes. Also, as Cavalier noted, most students also can't point convincingly to an interest in such a small niche after a year of law school.

It's not really right to say people shy away from them, because that would imply a conscious decision to avoid them. Most people just don't know, so if you can decide on a specialty to at least attempt to pursue it can be advantageous.


I came here with a background in accounting, specifically tax, and a presumption that I would be going into tax law. Even with the idea so strongly planted before coming to school it would be pretty difficult for me to say I definitely want to do tax after 1L year and only one tax law class. After speaking with several people from a few different firms of varying size it sounds like putting yourself out there as a tax person can limit your overall options. You can become pigeon-holed very easily if you're not careful (which might be something you are looking for). I'm sure some firms integrate their tax dept with the others but I have heard a couple examples of firms that all but isolate the department because its such a specific area. Also, as soon as I mention tax to any of these firms they immediately ask me if I intend on getting an LLM in tax- some have said its almost a requirement at a lot of firms these days. I think between the possibility of being limited in your exposure to other areas and a lot of firms wanting their tax people to have LLMs, in addition to the fact that so few people know enough about tax law after their 1L year, very few people can go into an OGI interview and say, with any real conviction, that they want to do tax law.

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dgouzoul
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby dgouzoul » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:06 am

swinger wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
esq wrote:
thesealocust wrote: The ones I'm referring to are small, competitive, and pay at or near market salaries (150-160K starting). Places like Groom Law Group, Caplin Drysdale, and one other at least that I'm forgetting in DC.

Doesn't sound like a bad gig then. So is there a reason that more legal students aren't running with this? Is it that most law students are disadvantaged with a social science degree and actually need something more like business accounting, finance and the more advanced knowledge of excel spreadsheets and number crunching to hang? Or is it more a case of the subject matter being boring and tedious, which doesn't make sense to me because, in a way, that is the law in general? I guess I'm just trying to understand some of these niche areas that people shy away from a bit better to understand my options early on.


lol, your background doesn't matter even a little bit for these kinds of jobs. I know people going or who have gone to these kinds of firms with art backgrounds and not a whiff of business or tax experience. I'm sure if you have something in your past that gave you an interest it would make a great selling point, but it's hardly a requirement.

Also, it's really important that you understand working at a law firm in a tax practice has VERY little to do with excel or number crunching. That's why God invented accountants. Tax lawyers are more involved with answering complex and uncertain areas of the law and arguing about the proper way to treat a transaction, not adding dollars and cents or figuring out the treatment of something after the fact. I'm sure excel comes up, but it's not a daily element of practice.

One reason more people don't go for them is because so few exist. They are very small firms (look them up) with very small summer classes. Also, as Cavalier noted, most students also can't point convincingly to an interest in such a small niche after a year of law school.

It's not really right to say people shy away from them, because that would imply a conscious decision to avoid them. Most people just don't know, so if you can decide on a specialty to at least attempt to pursue it can be advantageous.


I came here with a background in accounting, specifically tax, and a presumption that I would be going into tax law. Even with the idea so strongly planted before coming to school it would be pretty difficult for me to say I definitely want to do tax after 1L year and only one tax law class. After speaking with several people from a few different firms of varying size it sounds like putting yourself out there as a tax person can limit your overall options. You can become pigeon-holed very easily if you're not careful (which might be something you are looking for). I'm sure some firms integrate their tax dept with the others but I have heard a couple examples of firms that all but isolate the department because its such a specific area. Also, as soon as I mention tax to any of these firms they immediately ask me if I intend on getting an LLM in tax- some have said its almost a requirement at a lot of firms these days. I think between the possibility of being limited in your exposure to other areas and a lot of firms wanting their tax people to have LLMs, in addition to the fact that so few people know enough about tax law after their 1L year, very few people can go into an OGI interview and say, with any real conviction, that they want to do tax law.


tl;dr

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esq
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby esq » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:22 am

swinger wrote:I came here with a background in accounting, specifically tax, and a presumption that I would be going into tax law. Even with the idea so strongly planted before coming to school it would be pretty difficult for me to say I definitely want to do tax after 1L year and only one tax law class. After speaking with several people from a few different firms of varying size it sounds like putting yourself out there as a tax person can limit your overall options. You can become pigeon-holed very easily if you're not careful (which might be something you are looking for). I'm sure some firms integrate their tax dept with the others but I have heard a couple examples of firms that all but isolate the department because its such a specific area. Also, as soon as I mention tax to any of these firms they immediately ask me if I intend on getting an LLM in tax- some have said its almost a requirement at a lot of firms these days. I think between the possibility of being limited in your exposure to other areas and a lot of firms wanting their tax people to have LLMs, in addition to the fact that so few people know enough about tax law after their 1L year, very few people can go into an OGI interview and say, with any real conviction, that they want to do tax law.

I've heard that a lot of people getting into tax law end up pursuing their LLM. I guess my question now is, when do you finally jump on a career track for tax law? Would you jump on it during your 2L year? Or simply pursue other internship opportunities while preparing for tax law through your classes? If you are pursuing an LLM in the subject, it would seem that they wouldn't even look at you until you get some tax specific classes under your belt as a 2L, or even later. And overall, the only time I'd be worried about pigeon-holing myself would be if the job opportunities weren't there, so I'm trying to understand niche areas of the law that are in demand right now.

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swinger
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby swinger » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:27 pm

dgouzoul wrote:
swinger wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
esq wrote: Doesn't sound like a bad gig then. So is there a reason that more legal students aren't running with this? Is it that most law students are disadvantaged with a social science degree and actually need something more like business accounting, finance and the more advanced knowledge of excel spreadsheets and number crunching to hang? Or is it more a case of the subject matter being boring and tedious, which doesn't make sense to me because, in a way, that is the law in general? I guess I'm just trying to understand some of these niche areas that people shy away from a bit better to understand my options early on.


lol, your background doesn't matter even a little bit for these kinds of jobs. I know people going or who have gone to these kinds of firms with art backgrounds and not a whiff of business or tax experience. I'm sure if you have something in your past that gave you an interest it would make a great selling point, but it's hardly a requirement.

Also, it's really important that you understand working at a law firm in a tax practice has VERY little to do with excel or number crunching. That's why God invented accountants. Tax lawyers are more involved with answering complex and uncertain areas of the law and arguing about the proper way to treat a transaction, not adding dollars and cents or figuring out the treatment of something after the fact. I'm sure excel comes up, but it's not a daily element of practice.

One reason more people don't go for them is because so few exist. They are very small firms (look them up) with very small summer classes. Also, as Cavalier noted, most students also can't point convincingly to an interest in such a small niche after a year of law school.

It's not really right to say people shy away from them, because that would imply a conscious decision to avoid them. Most people just don't know, so if you can decide on a specialty to at least attempt to pursue it can be advantageous.


I came here with a background in accounting, specifically tax, and a presumption that I would be going into tax law. Even with the idea so strongly planted before coming to school it would be pretty difficult for me to say I definitely want to do tax after 1L year and only one tax law class. After speaking with several people from a few different firms of varying size it sounds like putting yourself out there as a tax person can limit your overall options. You can become pigeon-holed very easily if you're not careful (which might be something you are looking for). I'm sure some firms integrate their tax dept with the others but I have heard a couple examples of firms that all but isolate the department because its such a specific area. Also, as soon as I mention tax to any of these firms they immediately ask me if I intend on getting an LLM in tax- some have said its almost a requirement at a lot of firms these days. I think between the possibility of being limited in your exposure to other areas and a lot of firms wanting their tax people to have LLMs, in addition to the fact that so few people know enough about tax law after their 1L year, very few people can go into an OGI interview and say, with any real conviction, that they want to do tax law.


tl;dr



tax = very specific, risk being placed only in that dept, limited exposure + high likelihood firm wants you to get LLM.

kthxbai

also, hatchet was longer than my post.

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swinger
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby swinger » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:34 pm

esq wrote:
swinger wrote:I came here with a background in accounting, specifically tax, and a presumption that I would be going into tax law. Even with the idea so strongly planted before coming to school it would be pretty difficult for me to say I definitely want to do tax after 1L year and only one tax law class. After speaking with several people from a few different firms of varying size it sounds like putting yourself out there as a tax person can limit your overall options. You can become pigeon-holed very easily if you're not careful (which might be something you are looking for). I'm sure some firms integrate their tax dept with the others but I have heard a couple examples of firms that all but isolate the department because its such a specific area. Also, as soon as I mention tax to any of these firms they immediately ask me if I intend on getting an LLM in tax- some have said its almost a requirement at a lot of firms these days. I think between the possibility of being limited in your exposure to other areas and a lot of firms wanting their tax people to have LLMs, in addition to the fact that so few people know enough about tax law after their 1L year, very few people can go into an OGI interview and say, with any real conviction, that they want to do tax law.

I've heard that a lot of people getting into tax law end up pursuing their LLM. I guess my question now is, when do you finally jump on a career track for tax law? Would you jump on it during your 2L year? Or simply pursue other internship opportunities while preparing for tax law through your classes? If you are pursuing an LLM in the subject, it would seem that they wouldn't even look at you until you get some tax specific classes under your belt as a 2L, or even later. And overall, the only time I'd be worried about pigeon-holing myself would be if the job opportunities weren't there, so I'm trying to understand niche areas of the law that are in demand right now.


I think its one of those things that you bring up in 2L OGI interviews but also make sure to mention that it is just one of your interests and you look forward to taking tax courses during the upcoming 2L year. That way you have planted the tax seed with the firm and might be able to point to those previous statements during the summer rotation and, if you enjoyed the tax courses and think a career in tax is for you, ask to be placed on more tax-related projects. If you didn't like the tax courses you can probably just stick with what they are giving you and try to get on other projects that you are more interested in. Perhaps the firm I am doing this summer with operates differently than most other firms but thats how my experience has been here and that is the approach I will use at OGI. If they ask about the LLM you can always answer the question with the safe answer of it depends, when do they want you to get it? who is going to pay for it? is it absolutely required or just recommended? what schools can I get into?

Ask Gladiator for more specifics on tax law, especially when it comes to the LLM. He took that route and is going to one of (if not the) the top tax LLM programs in the fall.

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esq
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby esq » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:39 pm

Thanks.

Morgan12Oak
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby Morgan12Oak » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:23 pm

I'm having trouble finding it, but can someone direct me to where I can get my Spring grades? For some reason, I can't find them. K Thanks

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bgdddymtty
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby bgdddymtty » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:26 pm

Morgan12Oak wrote:I'm having trouble finding it, but can someone direct me to where I can get my Spring grades? For some reason, I can't find them. K Thanks
The dean in charge of spring grades is Helen Waite. If you're trying to find your grades, you should go to Helen Waite.

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yngblkgifted
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby yngblkgifted » Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:34 pm

I apologize for not looking through the entire thread to get this answer but I am planning on buying a mac laptop and I wanted to know if it would be advantageous to get it through the school or does it matter?

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badwithpseudonyms
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby badwithpseudonyms » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:20 pm

yngblkgifted wrote:I apologize for not looking through the entire thread to get this answer but I am planning on buying a mac laptop and I wanted to know if it would be advantageous to get it through the school or does it matter?


Not worth the extra money. Back your shit up and do your best to avoid accidentally destroying your MBP around finals and you should be fine. I think that is the general consensus, but someone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

uvahooo
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby uvahooo » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:44 pm

badwithpseudonyms wrote:
yngblkgifted wrote:I apologize for not looking through the entire thread to get this answer but I am planning on buying a mac laptop and I wanted to know if it would be advantageous to get it through the school or does it matter?


Not worth the extra money. Back your shit up and do your best to avoid accidentally destroying your MBP around finals and you should be fine. I think that is the general consensus, but someone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


BUT WHAT IF IT'S AN ACCIDENT?

:)

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yngblkgifted
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby yngblkgifted » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:58 pm

badwithpseudonyms wrote:
yngblkgifted wrote:I apologize for not looking through the entire thread to get this answer but I am planning on buying a mac laptop and I wanted to know if it would be advantageous to get it through the school or does it matter?


Not worth the extra money. Back your shit up and do your best to avoid accidentally destroying your MBP around finals and you should be fine. I think that is the general consensus, but someone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


Thanks, I appreciate the response. How much more are we talking about approximately? And this is basically insurance in case something bad happens to your laptop,correct? I agree that a lot of times insurance is a scam, but if it's not that much, I might consider it.




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