UVA Law Students Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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pjo
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby pjo » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:58 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
pjo wrote:
How much of the graduating class is really unemployed though? I just have a really tough time believing that ppl graduating from a T10 who really try to find work can't find anything, regardless of grades. I understand if there's a decent amount of people below median that are underemployed but are there really people who truly tried to find some type of legal work and have zero job options?
There is nobody who is unemployed that couldn't find work for 20-30k somewhere.


Cmon, personal injury in small towns starts at 35-45k/yr. You mean to tell me that out of all the small towns in the US or the North East alone that someone from a T10 can't land just one of those? I only say this because I feel that the whole "everyone below median is unemployed" gets really over played on this site, and it's everyone, not just this specific conversation. If you're working doc review you're employed. If you're working shitlaw you're employed. If you're working something legal you're employed. Most legal jobs pay at least 30-35k. Even at my local T2, there are VERY few ppl that are unemployed. The majoirty are making 40k/yr at first, although I would still consider that underemployed.

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jcunni5
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby jcunni5 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:00 pm

pjo wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
pjo wrote:
How much of the graduating class is really unemployed though? I just have a really tough time believing that ppl graduating from a T10 who really try to find work can't find anything, regardless of grades. I understand if there's a decent amount of people below median that are underemployed but are there really people who truly tried to find some type of legal work and have zero job options?
There is nobody who is unemployed that couldn't find work for 20-30k somewhere.


Cmon, personal injury in small towns starts at 35-45k/yr. You mean to tell me that out of all the small towns in the US or the North East alone that someone from a T10 can't land just one of those? I only say this because I feel that the whole "everyone below median is unemployed" gets really over played on this site, and it's everyone, not just this specific conversation. If you're working doc review you're employed. If you're working shitlaw you're employed. If you're working something legal you're employed. Most legal jobs pay at least 30-35k. Even at my local T2, there are VERY few ppl that are unemployed. The majoirty are making 40k/yr minimum, although I would still consider that underemployed.


I really hope you are right even a 40k/yr guarantee would make me feel better than below median = Doomed to your parent's basement forever haha

Brock2010
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby Brock2010 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:02 pm

pjo wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
pjo wrote:
How much of the graduating class is really unemployed though? I just have a really tough time believing that ppl graduating from a T10 who really try to find work can't find anything, regardless of grades. I understand if there's a decent amount of people below median that are underemployed but are there really people who truly tried to find some type of legal work and have zero job options?
There is nobody who is unemployed that couldn't find work for 20-30k somewhere.


Cmon, personal injury in small towns starts at 35-45k/yr. You mean to tell me that out of all the small towns in the US or the North East alone that someone from a T10 can't land just one of those? I only say this because I feel that the whole "everyone below median is unemployed" gets really over played on this site, and it's everyone, not just this specific conversation. If you're working doc review you're employed. If you're working shitlaw you're employed. If you're working something legal you're employed. Most legal jobs pay at least 30-35k. Even at my local T2, there are VERY few ppl that are unemployed. The majoirty are making 40k/yr at first, although I would still consider that underemployed.

understandable but if you're paying sticker at uva you probably have bigger expectations than these options. I don't think you can keep up with the interest on your loans with a 30k job. Idk maybe i'm wrong.

r6_philly
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby r6_philly » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:03 pm

jcunni5 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:not talking about how much you work =/= talking constantly about how much you don't work and haven't opened a book in two months.


But why does it matter? Your future is not dependent upon how much the next guy work or not work.


b/c I don't like to hear BS, if you wanna gun that's great but either own up to it or keep it quiet, there's no point in trying to convince people otherwise its kinda weird and just annoying especially when it's obvious what they're doing , look i agree tho i would not factor this observation in your decision and in the end it only matters to me as much as having an annoying coworker or something would


You want to be a lawyer?

ETA: it is not encouraged to talk candidly or honestly about how much you make, how much you work, and many other things in a professional environment. The coworker that is telling the truth is usually the one who's annoying.

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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby r6_philly » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:09 pm

Brock2010 wrote:understandable but if you're paying sticker at uva you probably have bigger expectations than these options. I don't think you can keep up with the interest on your loans with a 30k job. Idk maybe i'm wrong.


$210k debt on 35k income, single no dependent on IBR is $235/month.

25 years on $235/month and the rest of the loan is canceled. Not suggesting that anyone should live on $35k a year, but you won't have to worry about your debt. (Fed. loans only obviously).

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BruceWayne
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:09 pm

r6_philly wrote:You want to be a lawyer?

ETA: it is not encouraged to talk candidly or honestly about how much you make, how much you work, and many other things in a professional environment. The coworker that is telling the truth is usually the one who's annoying.


Jcunni we need to start hanging out man. r6Philly you will LOVE UVA.

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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby r6_philly » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:10 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
r6_philly wrote:You want to be a lawyer?

ETA: it is not encouraged to talk candidly or honestly about how much you make, how much you work, and many other things in a professional environment. The coworker that is telling the truth is usually the one who's annoying.


Jcunni we need to start hanging out man. r6Philly you will LOVE UVA.


I will be fine no matter where I go, and who I am around, regardless of whether I love it/them. Sorry, I don't need to worry/stress about my fellow students, as long as they can drink and hang out, I am cool with it.

Brock2010
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby Brock2010 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:12 pm

r6_philly wrote:
jcunni5 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:not talking about how much you work =/= talking constantly about how much you don't work and haven't opened a book in two months.


But why does it matter? Your future is not dependent upon how much the next guy work or not work.


b/c I don't like to hear BS, if you wanna gun that's great but either own up to it or keep it quiet, there's no point in trying to convince people otherwise its kinda weird and just annoying especially when it's obvious what they're doing , look i agree tho i would not factor this observation in your decision and in the end it only matters to me as much as having an annoying coworker or something would


You want to be a lawyer?

ETA: it is not encouraged to talk candidly or honestly about how much you make, how much you work, and many other things in a professional environment. The coworker that is telling the truth is usually the one who's annoying.


o he was talking about some personal injury firm in which case i don't think you'll get ibr.

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Kohinoor
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby Kohinoor » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:13 pm

pjo wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
pjo wrote:
How much of the graduating class is really unemployed though? I just have a really tough time believing that ppl graduating from a T10 who really try to find work can't find anything, regardless of grades. I understand if there's a decent amount of people below median that are underemployed but are there really people who truly tried to find some type of legal work and have zero job options?
There is nobody who is unemployed that couldn't find work for 20-30k somewhere.


Cmon, personal injury in small towns starts at 35-45k/yr. You mean to tell me that out of all the small towns in the US or the North East alone that someone from a T10 can't land just one of those? I only say this because I feel that the whole "everyone below median is unemployed" gets really over played on this site, and it's everyone, not just this specific conversation. If you're working doc review you're employed. If you're working shitlaw you're employed. If you're working something legal you're employed. Most legal jobs pay at least 30-35k. Even at my local T2, there are VERY few ppl that are unemployed. The majoirty are making 40k/yr at first, although I would still consider that underemployed.

Personal injury in New York doesn't even start at 35-45k. I wouldn't hire a T10 grad trying to come to my small town because he would be a flight risk and his credentials are meaningless to my clientele. For another perspective, several of my friends attend local T1 and T2s and few of them have paying jobs and none of those jobs are breaking 40k.

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pjo
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby pjo » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:22 pm

Brock2010 wrote:
pjo wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
pjo wrote:
How much of the graduating class is really unemployed though? I just have a really tough time believing that ppl graduating from a T10 who really try to find work can't find anything, regardless of grades. I understand if there's a decent amount of people below median that are underemployed but are there really people who truly tried to find some type of legal work and have zero job options?
There is nobody who is unemployed that couldn't find work for 20-30k somewhere.


Cmon, personal injury in small towns starts at 35-45k/yr. You mean to tell me that out of all the small towns in the US or the North East alone that someone from a T10 can't land just one of those? I only say this because I feel that the whole "everyone below median is unemployed" gets really over played on this site, and it's everyone, not just this specific conversation. If you're working doc review you're employed. If you're working shitlaw you're employed. If you're working something legal you're employed. Most legal jobs pay at least 30-35k. Even at my local T2, there are VERY few ppl that are unemployed. The majoirty are making 40k/yr at first, although I would still consider that underemployed.

understandable but if you're paying sticker at uva you probably have bigger expectations than these options. I don't think you can keep up with the interest on your loans with a 30k job. Idk maybe i'm wrong.


At 30k/yr with 200k in loans you’re right, you probably wouldn’t be able to keep up on your loans outright; however, there’s still IBR and VLPR which you should be covered under. I just wanted to get that off my chest though because a lot of times everyone throws around misconceptions and, because TLS is basically an echo chamber, ppl accept those misconceptions as truth. Two of the biggest on this site are: 1. If you don’t get Biglaw/Gov/PI/Clerkship then you are unemployed and 2. You need a 160k job to pay off 200k in loans (which helps feed the first misconception). I think in another thread r6philly(I think) and a few others broke down the numbers and showed how you can pay off 200k in loans and still eat while making a minimum of 50k, and that’s without factoring in any type of IBR/LRAP. I know from personal experience that personal injury firms in small towns pay 30-35k and in larger cities they range from 40-55k entry. The other thing is, there are a TON of these type of firms. The upward mobility isn’t great but it still pays and I know grads that are working these jobs and still paying off their loans. I also know ppl who have worked doc review and then have moved up to associate. It may not be glamorous and you may never drive a beamer, but if you want to be a lawyer you can still be one and pay off your loans on 50k salary (I use that figure because I’ve done the calculation). Sorry for the long post, but I thought this might help someone out, or at least point out that half of TLS reads something in one post and automatically accepts it as true, then they go and post it in another post, which leads to a lot of ppl posting stuff they really don’t know much of anything about. I’m not calling anyone out or anything, I’m just saying.

r6_philly
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby r6_philly » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:23 pm

Brock2010 wrote:
o he was talking about some personal injury firm in which case i don't think you'll get ibr.


IBR is income dependent, not occupation dependent.

Anyone can get on IBR if your income is low enough.

http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/ ... BRPlan.jsp

ETA: the confusion is, many LRAP programs piggyback off of IBR, so people think IBR requires PI jobs.
Last edited by r6_philly on Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jcunni5
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby jcunni5 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:23 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
r6_philly wrote:You want to be a lawyer?

ETA: it is not encouraged to talk candidly or honestly about how much you make, how much you work, and many other things in a professional environment. The coworker that is telling the truth is usually the one who's annoying.


Jcunni we need to start hanging out man. r6Philly you will LOVE UVA.


r6philly: haha i figure i'll have to hear enough BS in the courtroom or on the job i don't need it from friends/ section mates

from what i gather from my friends at other L schools the students usually complain about how Much they have to work not try to convince others they don't try, so i actually do think this is somewhat peculiar to UVA... but we can agree to disagree i guess, like i said I don't need them to be necessarily candid with me i just don't want them to act like they're being candid while telling me something that is completely untrue... i think you might find this unusual once you actually experience it, if you come to UVA

Bruce: yeah i know man, I'm glad i'm not the only who noticed this and find found it annoying as hell haha

Brock2010
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby Brock2010 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:24 pm

How much of the graduating class is really unemployed though? I just have a really tough time believing that ppl graduating from a T10 who really try to find work can't find anything, regardless of grades. I understand if there's a decent amount of people below median that are underemployed but are there really people who truly tried to find some type of legal work and have zero job options?[/quote]There is nobody who is unemployed that couldn't find work for 20-30k somewhere.[/quote]

Cmon, personal injury in small towns starts at 35-45k/yr. You mean to tell me that out of all the small towns in the US or the North East alone that someone from a T10 can't land just one of those? I only say this because I feel that the whole "everyone below median is unemployed" gets really over played on this site, and it's everyone, not just this specific conversation. If you're working doc review you're employed. If you're working shitlaw you're employed. If you're working something legal you're employed. Most legal jobs pay at least 30-35k. Even at my local T2, there are VERY few ppl that are unemployed. The majoirty are making 40k/yr at first, although I would still consider that underemployed.[/quote]
understandable but if you're paying sticker at uva you probably have bigger expectations than these options. I don't think you can keep up with the interest on your loans with a 30k job. Idk maybe i'm wrong.[/quote]
Thanks dude I didn't know that. Do you go to UVA?
At 30k/yr with 200k in loans you’re right, you probably wouldn’t be able to keep up on your loans outright; however, there’s still IBR and VLPR which you should be covered under. I just wanted to get that off my chest though because a lot of times everyone throws around misconceptions and, because TLS is basically an echo chamber, ppl accept those misconceptions as truth. Two of the biggest on this site are: 1. If you don’t get Biglaw/Gov/PI/Clerkship then you are unemployed and 2. You need a 160k job to pay off 200k in loans (which helps feed the first misconception). I think in another thread r6philly(I think) and a few others broke down the numbers and showed how you can pay off 200k in loans and still eat while making a minimum of 50k, and that’s without factoring in any type of IBR/LRAP. I know from personal experience that personal injury firms in small towns pay 30-35k and in larger cities they range from 40-55k entry. The other thing is, there are a TON of these type of firms. The upward mobility isn’t great but it still pays and I know grads that are working these jobs and still paying off their loans. I also know ppl who have worked doc review and then have moved up to associate. It may not be glamorous and you may never drive a beamer, but if you want to be a lawyer you can still be one and pay off your loans on 50k salary (I use that figure because I’ve done the calculation). Sorry for the long post, but I thought this might help someone out, or at least point out that half of TLS reads something in one post and automatically accepts it as true, then they go and post it in another post, which leads to a lot of ppl posting stuff they really don’t know much of anything about. I’m not calling anyone out or anything, I’m just saying.[/quote]

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pjo
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby pjo » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:26 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
pjo wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
pjo wrote:
How much of the graduating class is really unemployed though? I just have a really tough time believing that ppl graduating from a T10 who really try to find work can't find anything, regardless of grades. I understand if there's a decent amount of people below median that are underemployed but are there really people who truly tried to find some type of legal work and have zero job options?
There is nobody who is unemployed that couldn't find work for 20-30k somewhere.


Cmon, personal injury in small towns starts at 35-45k/yr. You mean to tell me that out of all the small towns in the US or the North East alone that someone from a T10 can't land just one of those? I only say this because I feel that the whole "everyone below median is unemployed" gets really over played on this site, and it's everyone, not just this specific conversation. If you're working doc review you're employed. If you're working shitlaw you're employed. If you're working something legal you're employed. Most legal jobs pay at least 30-35k. Even at my local T2, there are VERY few ppl that are unemployed. The majoirty are making 40k/yr at first, although I would still consider that underemployed.

Personal injury in New York doesn't even start at 35-45k. I wouldn't hire a T10 grad trying to come to my small town because he would be a flight risk and his credentials are meaningless to my clientele. For another perspective, several of my friends attend local T1 and T2s and few of them have paying jobs and none of those jobs are breaking 40k.


Fair enough, and I can only speak about what I have witnessed firsthand and I know to be true. Those are figures from my hometown, and the nearest city. The figures were quoted from attorneys at multiple firms in both areas. I have talked to kids at the local T2 who will be working at those firms. Also, I doubt you would be considered a flight risk if you were from a small town (like me) and ended up returning to that town (I don’t plan on doing this, but if I did, I doubt attorneys would question why I was returning considering I spent the first 18 years of my life there and my entire family still lives in the area).

-At Brock: I'll be at UVa next year.
Last edited by pjo on Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

r6_philly
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby r6_philly » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:28 pm

jcunni5 wrote:r6philly: haha i figure i'll have to hear enough BS in the courtroom or on the job i don't need it from friends/ section mates

from what i gather from my friends at other L schools the students usually complain about how Much they have to work not try to convince others they don't try, so i actually do think this is somewhat peculiar to UVA... but we can agree to disagree i guess, like i said I don't need them to be necessarily candid with me i just don't want them to act like they're being candid while telling me something that is completely untrue... i think you might find this unusual once you actually experience it, if you come to UVA

Bruce: yeah i know man, I'm glad i'm not the only who noticed this and find found it annoying as hell haha


I hate to say it, but playing mind games is a big part of professional success... I guess I am just used to it after working for 16 years.

BTW I am just simply indifferent. If you cared about what others say about their work ethics, you lost the mind game already.

Brock2010
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby Brock2010 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:37 pm

C
o ok good shit man are you going to asw this weekend?

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pjo
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby pjo » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:39 pm

Brock2010 wrote:C
o ok good shit man are you going to asw this weekend?


Do you mean April 1st? If so, then yeah. How bout you? I think some TLSers are trying to meet up.

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suspicious android
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby suspicious android » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:45 pm

pjo wrote:. . . Sorry for the long post, but I thought this might help someone out, or at least point out that half of TLS reads something in one post and automatically accepts it as true, then they go and post it in another post, which leads to a lot of ppl posting stuff they really don’t know much of anything about. I’m not calling anyone out or anything, I’m just saying.


There is probably a bit of exaggeration around here, but I think it's pretty natural to equate striking out on firm/clerkship/government/PI with unemployment. The result is, 200K in debt and a shitty, unenjoyable, low-paying job with less upside than they likely would have had if they had not gone to law school. 99% of people in law school are looking to get a good job they can be happy with, or at least one that pays a ton. Not getting either would mean, for most people, that law school was a failure.

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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:56 pm

Brock2010 wrote:Lol ok well how well do you have to do to get biglaw?/ How much time do you study in a week?


clearly you haven't spent much time on TLS

Brock2010
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby Brock2010 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:56 pm

suspicious android wrote:
pjo wrote:. . . Sorry for the long post, but I thought this might help someone out, or at least point out that half of TLS reads something in one post and automatically accepts it as true, then they go and post it in another post, which leads to a lot of ppl posting stuff they really don’t know much of anything about. I’m not calling anyone out or anything, I’m just saying.


There is probably a bit of exaggeration around here, but I think it's pretty natural to equate striking out on firm/clerkship/government/PI with unemployment. The result is, 200K in debt and a shitty, unenjoyable, low-paying job with less upside than they likely would have had if they had not gone to law school. 99% of people in law school are looking to get a good job they can be happy with, or at least one that pays a ton. Not getting either would mean, for most people, that law school was a failure.

This makes a lot of sense. Do you go to UVA?

r6_philly
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby r6_philly » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:58 pm

paulinaporizkova wrote:
Brock2010 wrote:Lol ok well how well do you have to do to get biglaw?/ How much time do you study in a week?


clearly you haven't spent much time on TLS


After yesterday, and piggyback off what the career services director said, I think some people are just not going to not do well at biglaw. This has nothing to do with grades and credentials. So getting biglaw may actually be easier than we make it to be here IF you are suitable for biglaw.

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arism87
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby arism87 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:00 pm

r6_philly wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:
Brock2010 wrote:Lol ok well how well do you have to do to get biglaw?/ How much time do you study in a week?


clearly you haven't spent much time on TLS


After yesterday, and piggyback off what the career services director said, I think some people are just not going to not do well at biglaw. This has nothing to do with grades and credentials. So getting biglaw may actually be easier than we make it to be here IF you are suitable for biglaw.


What do you mean, what makes someone suitable for biglaw?

(Because I'm not sure I am, so maybe someone else should decide for me, lol)

Brock2010
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby Brock2010 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:01 pm

paulinaporizkova wrote:
Brock2010 wrote:Lol ok well how well do you have to do to get biglaw?/ How much time do you study in a week?


clearly you haven't spent much time on TLS

What is this supposed to me?

paulinaporizkova
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:04 pm

Brock2010 wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:
Brock2010 wrote:Lol ok well how well do you have to do to get biglaw?/ How much time do you study in a week?


clearly you haven't spent much time on TLS

What is this supposed to me?

people will say that no amount of excess studying will separate you from your peers grade-wise. you either have it or you don't, which is not how it is, say, with undergrad where you can study a shitload and probably get A's, or at least be more likely to get A's. in LS everything is curved so you might study your ass off and still get a B- (in fact, many do)

r6_philly
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Re: UVA 2L taking questions

Postby r6_philly » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:05 pm

arism87 wrote:What do you mean, what makes someone suitable for biglaw?

(Because I'm not sure I am, so maybe someone else should decide for me, lol)


Personality and disposition mostly. I think when you go for your career counseling session they will point you in the right direction. I have seen a lot of people in corporate environment, and some are just much more suited for that environment than others. People may have the smarts and grades, but if they don't really play the part they are more likely to strike out.




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