UVA Law Students Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
whats an updog
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby whats an updog » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:16 pm

Yardbird wrote:
whats an updog wrote:Probably answered somewhere else in the thread, but who else is good for Corporations then
Even if you have no business background or haven’t taken accounting or corporate finance take the law & business section of corporations with Curtis. He’s a great lecturer and his exams are very fair. Not arbitrary like Kordana. Unless you have had Kordana in the past or want to experience him, I’d go for Curtis since Geis isn’t teaching Corporations this fall.


roger that, thanks for the advice

AReasonableMan
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby AReasonableMan » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:41 pm

whats an updog wrote:
Yardbird wrote:
whats an updog wrote:Probably answered somewhere else in the thread, but who else is good for Corporations then
Even if you have no business background or haven’t taken accounting or corporate finance take the law & business section of corporations with Curtis. He’s a great lecturer and his exams are very fair. Not arbitrary like Kordana. Unless you have had Kordana in the past or want to experience him, I’d go for Curtis since Geis isn’t teaching Corporations this fall.


roger that, thanks for the advice

If you aren't interested in clerking, and your goal 2nd and 3rd year is simply not to bomb then Curtis classes are fantastic because (1) the man is brilliant and will teach you a lot, and (2) his larger classes attract of LLM's who are unfairly placed on the same curve. As his exams are all time crunchers with lots of issues and questions, this creates an even bigger disadvantage for non-fluent speakers than other exams. The consequence of this is you could get a B+ coming into the exam outlineless and not knowing any law, but pull a B+ just by arguing things like reasonableness and notice. While his intellectual depth makes the class hard to follow if you fall behind, it's really a win-win gamble because the curve is so slanted at the bottom that you don't need to know any law to pull median.

whats an updog
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby whats an updog » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:08 pm

AReasonableMan wrote:
whats an updog wrote:
Yardbird wrote:
whats an updog wrote:Probably answered somewhere else in the thread, but who else is good for Corporations then
Even if you have no business background or haven’t taken accounting or corporate finance take the law & business section of corporations with Curtis. He’s a great lecturer and his exams are very fair. Not arbitrary like Kordana. Unless you have had Kordana in the past or want to experience him, I’d go for Curtis since Geis isn’t teaching Corporations this fall.


roger that, thanks for the advice

If you aren't interested in clerking, and your goal 2nd and 3rd year is simply not to bomb then Curtis classes are fantastic because (1) the man is brilliant and will teach you a lot, and (2) his larger classes attract of LLM's who are unfairly placed on the same curve. As his exams are all time crunchers with lots of issues and questions, this creates an even bigger disadvantage for non-fluent speakers than other exams. The consequence of this is you could get a B+ coming into the exam outlineless and not knowing any law, but pull a B+ just by arguing things like reasonableness and notice. While his intellectual depth makes the class hard to follow if you fall behind, it's really a win-win gamble because the curve is so slanted at the bottom that you don't need to know any law to pull median.


So are you saying that it's unlikely to pull anything more than a B+?

AReasonableMan
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby AReasonableMan » Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:01 pm

whats an updog wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:
whats an updog wrote:
Yardbird wrote:
whats an updog wrote:Probably answered somewhere else in the thread, but who else is good for Corporations then
Even if you have no business background or haven’t taken accounting or corporate finance take the law & business section of corporations with Curtis. He’s a great lecturer and his exams are very fair. Not arbitrary like Kordana. Unless you have had Kordana in the past or want to experience him, I’d go for Curtis since Geis isn’t teaching Corporations this fall.


roger that, thanks for the advice

If you aren't interested in clerking, and your goal 2nd and 3rd year is simply not to bomb then Curtis classes are fantastic because (1) the man is brilliant and will teach you a lot, and (2) his larger classes attract of LLM's who are unfairly placed on the same curve. As his exams are all time crunchers with lots of issues and questions, this creates an even bigger disadvantage for non-fluent speakers than other exams. The consequence of this is you could get a B+ coming into the exam outlineless and not knowing any law, but pull a B+ just by arguing things like reasonableness and notice. While his intellectual depth makes the class hard to follow if you fall behind, it's really a win-win gamble because the curve is so slanted at the bottom that you don't need to know any law to pull median.


So are you saying that it's unlikely to pull anything more than a B+?

Opposite. If you make a good faith effort the sky is the limit. When 20% of the class has a 2 page test on 3 of 100 issues there's no need to give any of the remaining 80% under a B irrespective of how terrible their exams are. There are going to be some really smart people with advanced financial backgrounds who are passionate about the subject matter, but the aforementioned loophole in the curve makes it next to impossible for any JD student to do all that poorly on an issue spotting securities exam.

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anon sequitur
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby anon sequitur » Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:23 pm

If you make a good faith effort the sky is the limit. When 20% of the class has a 2 page test on 3 of 100 issues there's no need to give any of the remaining 80% under a B irrespective of how terrible their exams are. There are going to be some really smart people with advanced financial backgrounds who are passionate about the subject matter, but the aforementioned loophole in the curve makes it next to impossible for any JD student to do all that poorly on an issue spotting securities exam.


*finally understanding how I got a B in property*

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5ky
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby 5ky » Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:08 pm

Couple things:

1. Unless they've changed it, you can't sign up for a "law and business" course unless you've taken the accounting class or get clearance from the registrar based on undergrad classes.

2. I took several Curtis classes. Unless he's changed things, I didn't detect any required knowledge of financial information (I took the law and business variants), so don't feel nervous about that necessarily. I also thought Curtis was a perfectly good teacher I don't think his classes had any special level of intellectual depth to them. The best thing about Curtis was that his exams were both fair and easy. Nothing to puzzle over, just as straightforward of an issue spotter as you'll get.

Just my opinions

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sundance95
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby sundance95 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:03 pm

jkpolk wrote:
Br3v wrote:What does this mean? That you should take him or not?


Do you want to risk a wide distribution or do you want to 3LOL to a B+?

This. There's no one answer, just information.

Agreed with 5ky that the exam was needlessly stressful, however.

whats an updog
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby whats an updog » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:55 am

AReasonableMan wrote:
whats an updog wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:
whats an updog wrote:
roger that, thanks for the advice

If you aren't interested in clerking, and your goal 2nd and 3rd year is simply not to bomb then Curtis classes are fantastic because (1) the man is brilliant and will teach you a lot, and (2) his larger classes attract of LLM's who are unfairly placed on the same curve. As his exams are all time crunchers with lots of issues and questions, this creates an even bigger disadvantage for non-fluent speakers than other exams. The consequence of this is you could get a B+ coming into the exam outlineless and not knowing any law, but pull a B+ just by arguing things like reasonableness and notice. While his intellectual depth makes the class hard to follow if you fall behind, it's really a win-win gamble because the curve is so slanted at the bottom that you don't need to know any law to pull median.


So are you saying that it's unlikely to pull anything more than a B+?

Opposite. If you make a good faith effort the sky is the limit. When 20% of the class has a 2 page test on 3 of 100 issues there's no need to give any of the remaining 80% under a B irrespective of how terrible their exams are. There are going to be some really smart people with advanced financial backgrounds who are passionate about the subject matter, but the aforementioned loophole in the curve makes it next to impossible for any JD student to do all that poorly on an issue spotting securities exam.


aight, i was just confused cuz of your clerking comment

so, curtis's corporations class does require some jiggery pokery requisites, can i just phone that in by asking him to allow me in the class or is it FOR REAL

sprezz
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby sprezz » Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:38 am

i sent an email saying "hey can i take your l&b class" and he said "do you have experience to make up for not taking the accting classes?" and i said "no?" and he said "you're in!" ; ymmv

+1 to taking curtis and to the curve assessment above

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PrezRand
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby PrezRand » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:33 am

Do any of you know much about the MPP/JD program at UVA?

Just
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby Just » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:44 am

AReasonableMan wrote:
whats an updog wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:
whats an updog wrote:
Yardbird wrote:
whats an updog wrote:Probably answered somewhere else in the thread, but who else is good for Corporations then
Even if you have no business background or haven’t taken accounting or corporate finance take the law & business section of corporations with Curtis. He’s a great lecturer and his exams are very fair. Not arbitrary like Kordana. Unless you have had Kordana in the past or want to experience him, I’d go for Curtis since Geis isn’t teaching Corporations this fall.


roger that, thanks for the advice

If you aren't interested in clerking, and your goal 2nd and 3rd year is simply not to bomb then Curtis classes are fantastic because (1) the man is brilliant and will teach you a lot, and (2) his larger classes attract of LLM's who are unfairly placed on the same curve. As his exams are all time crunchers with lots of issues and questions, this creates an even bigger disadvantage for non-fluent speakers than other exams. The consequence of this is you could get a B+ coming into the exam outlineless and not knowing any law, but pull a B+ just by arguing things like reasonableness and notice. While his intellectual depth makes the class hard to follow if you fall behind, it's really a win-win gamble because the curve is so slanted at the bottom that you don't need to know any law to pull median.


When 20% of the class has a 2 page test on 3 of 100 issues

This is kind of disrespectful and far from the truth...Also, LLMs get extra time and I've heard them talking about how they feel they are more confident about their performance in Corporations

jj2014
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby jj2014 » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:14 pm

I've heard that 1ls don't get their class schedules until orientation, or shortly before. How does that affect buying textbooks? Is there enough time to buy them from Amazon, or do most students end up having to use the bookstore?

AReasonableMan
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby AReasonableMan » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:38 pm

whats an updog wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:
whats an updog wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:
whats an updog wrote:
roger that, thanks for the advice

If you aren't interested in clerking, and your goal 2nd and 3rd year is simply not to bomb then Curtis classes are fantastic because (1) the man is brilliant and will teach you a lot, and (2) his larger classes attract of LLM's who are unfairly placed on the same curve. As his exams are all time crunchers with lots of issues and questions, this creates an even bigger disadvantage for non-fluent speakers than other exams. The consequence of this is you could get a B+ coming into the exam outlineless and not knowing any law, but pull a B+ just by arguing things like reasonableness and notice. While his intellectual depth makes the class hard to follow if you fall behind, it's really a win-win gamble because the curve is so slanted at the bottom that you don't need to know any law to pull median.


So are you saying that it's unlikely to pull anything more than a B+?

Opposite. If you make a good faith effort the sky is the limit. When 20% of the class has a 2 page test on 3 of 100 issues there's no need to give any of the remaining 80% under a B irrespective of how terrible their exams are. There are going to be some really smart people with advanced financial backgrounds who are passionate about the subject matter, but the aforementioned loophole in the curve makes it next to impossible for any JD student to do all that poorly on an issue spotting securities exam.


aight, i was just confused cuz of your clerking comment

so, curtis's corporations class does require some jiggery pokery requisites, can i just phone that in by asking him to allow me in the class or is it FOR REAL

I think it is probably harder to get an A in law and business classes without having taken the prerequisites and without prior work experience. Even if a test is written to filter out the need to know anything other than the law, it's still an advantage to have been able to visualize how the laws apply to real life. I'm not saying it's impossible to get an A in M&A without knowing what M&A is beforehand, just that you have a disadvantage.

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rhododactylos
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby rhododactylos » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:07 pm

jj2014 wrote:I've heard that 1ls don't get their class schedules until orientation, or shortly before. How does that affect buying textbooks? Is there enough time to buy them from Amazon, or do most students end up having to use the bookstore?


You'll get your professor assignments the Friday before classes start (first day of class is a Wednesday). I bought all my books from the bookstore that day, then went home and ordered them on Amazon with the 2 day shipping from Prime (free 6-month trial for students with a .edu account). As the Amazon books came in, I returned the other books to the bookstore. You need about $1200-1500 in available credit to make it work, but I think that's the best way to do it.

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UVAIce
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby UVAIce » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:16 pm

AReasonableMan wrote:
whats an updog wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:
whats an updog wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:
whats an updog wrote:
roger that, thanks for the advice

If you aren't interested in clerking, and your goal 2nd and 3rd year is simply not to bomb then Curtis classes are fantastic because (1) the man is brilliant and will teach you a lot, and (2) his larger classes attract of LLM's who are unfairly placed on the same curve. As his exams are all time crunchers with lots of issues and questions, this creates an even bigger disadvantage for non-fluent speakers than other exams. The consequence of this is you could get a B+ coming into the exam outlineless and not knowing any law, but pull a B+ just by arguing things like reasonableness and notice. While his intellectual depth makes the class hard to follow if you fall behind, it's really a win-win gamble because the curve is so slanted at the bottom that you don't need to know any law to pull median.


So are you saying that it's unlikely to pull anything more than a B+?

Opposite. If you make a good faith effort the sky is the limit. When 20% of the class has a 2 page test on 3 of 100 issues there's no need to give any of the remaining 80% under a B irrespective of how terrible their exams are. There are going to be some really smart people with advanced financial backgrounds who are passionate about the subject matter, but the aforementioned loophole in the curve makes it next to impossible for any JD student to do all that poorly on an issue spotting securities exam.


aight, i was just confused cuz of your clerking comment

so, curtis's corporations class does require some jiggery pokery requisites, can i just phone that in by asking him to allow me in the class or is it FOR REAL

I think it is probably harder to get an A in law and business classes without having taken the prerequisites and without prior work experience. Even if a test is written to filter out the need to know anything other than the law, it's still an advantage to have been able to visualize how the laws apply to real life. I'm not saying it's impossible to get an A in M&A without knowing what M&A is beforehand, just that you have a disadvantage.


This is true for just about any class in law school, but I don't think it should inform what classes you take. If you take a class like Presidential Powers or a class on a particular narrow topic of constitutional law then there is always going to be the one person who probably doesn't need to take the class in the first place. But I think that's true in a lot of topics and shouldn't stop you from taking a class like corporations. Also, as may already be apparent, I think this is true for all law school classes regardless of whether they are law and business classes or not. Take classes you think will be helpful or that you just find interesting.

AReasonableMan
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby AReasonableMan » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:52 pm

Just wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:
whats an updog wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:
whats an updog wrote:
Yardbird wrote:
whats an updog wrote:Probably answered somewhere else in the thread, but who else is good for Corporations then
Even if you have no business background or haven’t taken accounting or corporate finance take the law & business section of corporations with Curtis. He’s a great lecturer and his exams are very fair. Not arbitrary like Kordana. Unless you have had Kordana in the past or want to experience him, I’d go for Curtis since Geis isn’t teaching Corporations this fall.


roger that, thanks for the advice

If you aren't interested in clerking, and your goal 2nd and 3rd year is simply not to bomb then Curtis classes are fantastic because (1) the man is brilliant and will teach you a lot, and (2) his larger classes attract of LLM's who are unfairly placed on the same curve. As his exams are all time crunchers with lots of issues and questions, this creates an even bigger disadvantage for non-fluent speakers than other exams. The consequence of this is you could get a B+ coming into the exam outlineless and not knowing any law, but pull a B+ just by arguing things like reasonableness and notice. While his intellectual depth makes the class hard to follow if you fall behind, it's really a win-win gamble because the curve is so slanted at the bottom that you don't need to know any law to pull median.


When 20% of the class has a 2 page test on 3 of 100 issues

This is kind of disrespectful and far from the truth...Also, LLMs get extra time and I've heard them talking about how they feel they are more confident about their performance in Corporations

I don't intend to offend anyone, and think this all has 0 correlation with intelligence. However, I was told by people in the program that there was some controversy regarding TOEFL exams taken overseas. Extra time is certainly not an equalizing measure for everyone who has extra time. If the goal were fairness it should be a completely separate curve.

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North
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby North » Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:14 pm

Results from the 3L grad requirement course lottery are up

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rhododactylos
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby rhododactylos » Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:28 pm

Here are the 1L section professor lineups for this year:

Crim Law/CivPro/Contracts/Torts/Property/ConLaw/LRW

A: Bonnie/Collins/Kordana/Armacost/Doran/Prakash/Fore
B: Harrison/Mitchell/Cohen/Armacost/Stephan/Forde-Mazrui/Ware
C: Harrison/Spencer/Geis/Kendrick/J. Mahoney/Nachbar/Fore
D: Bonnie/Heytens/Johnston/Abraham/Schragger/Hellman/Buck
E: Brown/Nelson/Setear/Abraham/J. Mahoney/Goluboff/Ware
F: Ferzan/Collins/Johnston/Strauss/Stephan/Barzun/Fore
G: Jeffries/Mitchell/Harrison/Kendrick/Johnson/Schwartzman/Fore
H: Jeffries/Woolhandler/Hynes/Barzun/Doran/Garrett/Buck
I: Brown/Woolhandler/Geis/White/Nicoletti/Schwartzman/Ware
J: Ferzan/Nelson/Hynes/Johnston/Hylton/Hellman/Buck

From a quick glance A, E. and G look loaded with all-stars. B is going to have a lot of big personalities to manage in the fall.

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5ky
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby 5ky » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:01 pm

I 100% disagree with the comments that law and business courses are harder to do well in without prereqs/knowledge.

The trick with many of the corp classes is that they are statute based or statute heavy and that makes them really complicated. But f you take the time to learn the code and can cite it on an exam, an A is yours to lose, because most 2L/3Ls won't bother.

whats an updog
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby whats an updog » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:30 pm

rhododactylos wrote:Here are the 1L section professor lineups for this year:

Crim Law/CivPro/Contracts/Torts/Property/ConLaw/LRW

A: Bonnie/Collins/Kordana/Armacost/Doran/Prakash/Fore
B: Harrison/Mitchell/Cohen/Armacost/Stephan/Forde-Mazrui/Ware
C: Harrison/Spencer/Geis/Kendrick/J. Mahoney/Nachbar/Fore
D: Bonnie/Heytens/Johnston/Abraham/Schragger/Hellman/Buck
E: Brown/Nelson/Setear/Abraham/J. Mahoney/Goluboff/Ware
F: Ferzan/Collins/Johnston/Strauss/Stephan/Barzun/Fore
G: Jeffries/Mitchell/Harrison/Kendrick/Johnson/Schwartzman/Fore
H: Jeffries/Woolhandler/Hynes/Barzun/Doran/Garrett/Buck
I: Brown/Woolhandler/Geis/White/Nicoletti/Schwartzman/Ware
J: Ferzan/Nelson/Hynes/Johnston/Hylton/Hellman/Buck

From a quick glance A, E. and G look loaded with all-stars. B is going to have a lot of big personalities to manage in the fall.


No Coughlin for Crim?

asundialwatch
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby asundialwatch » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:22 am

whats an updog wrote:
rhododactylos wrote:Here are the 1L section professor lineups for this year:

Crim Law/CivPro/Contracts/Torts/Property/ConLaw/LRW

A: Bonnie/Collins/Kordana/Armacost/Doran/Prakash/Fore
B: Harrison/Mitchell/Cohen/Armacost/Stephan/Forde-Mazrui/Ware
C: Harrison/Spencer/Geis/Kendrick/J. Mahoney/Nachbar/Fore
D: Bonnie/Heytens/Johnston/Abraham/Schragger/Hellman/Buck
E: Brown/Nelson/Setear/Abraham/J. Mahoney/Goluboff/Ware
F: Ferzan/Collins/Johnston/Strauss/Stephan/Barzun/Fore
G: Jeffries/Mitchell/Harrison/Kendrick/Johnson/Schwartzman/Fore
H: Jeffries/Woolhandler/Hynes/Barzun/Doran/Garrett/Buck
I: Brown/Woolhandler/Geis/White/Nicoletti/Schwartzman/Ware
J: Ferzan/Nelson/Hynes/Johnston/Hylton/Hellman/Buck

From a quick glance A, E. and G look loaded with all-stars. B is going to have a lot of big personalities to manage in the fall.


No Coughlin for Crim?

No Harmon for Crim? If I were a 1L I'd be sad.

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Yardbird
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby Yardbird » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:10 am

5ky wrote:I 100% disagree with the comments that law and business courses are harder to do well in without prereqs/knowledge.

The trick with many of the corp classes is that they are statute based or statute heavy and that makes them really complicated. But f you take the time to learn the code and can cite it on an exam, an A is yours to lose, because most 2L/3Ls won't bother.
Agree. Also, none of my L&B classes tested finance or accounting stuff...just mentioned financials in class.

whats an updog
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby whats an updog » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:36 am

Anyone done an independent research project for the writing requirement?

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anon sequitur
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby anon sequitur » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:00 am

asundialwatch wrote:No Harmon for Crim? If I were a 1L I'd be sad.


No problem, Ferzan is the new crim all-star.

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Yardbird
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Re: UVA Law Students Taking Questions

Postby Yardbird » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:03 am

whats an updog wrote:Anyone done an independent research project for the writing requirement?
I’m doing mine that way this fall.




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