Penn Students Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:12 pm

wildcatatpenn wrote:
PennBull wrote:
wildcatatpenn wrote:Hey guys, upperclassmen/grads etc......

when we graduate, what do they give in terms of relative grades? Do we then get an exact GPA # (like 3.454)? Or do we get a ranking (e.g. top 65%)? Or is it just the summa/wtv titles and you are still not allowed to give out GPA/percentile?

tyvm


the latter


you mean just the latin honors right? and still not allowed to provide a GPA?


yes

it shouldn't matter anyways

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DCNTUA
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby DCNTUA » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:21 pm

Can someone comment on why Lee is bad for Administrative? Is the exam fair?

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby r6_philly » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:26 am

PennBull wrote:
wildcatatpenn wrote:
PennBull wrote:
wildcatatpenn wrote:Hey guys, upperclassmen/grads etc......

when we graduate, what do they give in terms of relative grades? Do we then get an exact GPA # (like 3.454)? Or do we get a ranking (e.g. top 65%)? Or is it just the summa/wtv titles and you are still not allowed to give out GPA/percentile?

tyvm


the latter


you mean just the latin honors right? and still not allowed to provide a GPA?


yes

it shouldn't matter anyways

I can only think of a few situations where gpa would make a difference but then other thing matter more so it really doesn't matter.

PennBrady
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBrady » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:44 pm

AlwaysPlayTheFox wrote:
PennBrady wrote:
0heL wrote:Thanks upperclassmen, there's some great advice here. So does anyone know what's the deal with:

Health Law with Ruger
Legislation with Gelbach
Privacy with Yoo/Steinfeld


Which professors are fairest at grading? Which of these classes draw the most LLM's? Which have the least random finals?


Gelbach has never taught Legislation before. He was...less than great for Civ Pro, but he's a good guy. Just rambly and disjointed in his lecture style, and lacking in experience. For legislation this probably doesn't matter, since there's not a lot of substance to the topic anyway.
His Civ Pro exam was funny and fair, if a little bit surprising in some ways.

Ruger was great for Legislation last year, and we wound up talking a lot about health law related cases, I assume because of his expertise on the subject. He's very organized and clear, and he seems to care about students. On the flip side he could be a little better at controlling the class and not letting the gunners filibuster all the time.
Exam was extremely straightforward and fair.

If it comes down to Gelbach vs. Ruger I would pick Ruger any day of the week, regardless of subject matter. No offense to Gelbach - he's still just really green. Plus there are preexisting outlines, which should be a critical consideration.


Any thoughts on Privacy with Yoo/Steinfeld


Haven't had either professor yet. I hear good things about Yoo as a professor, but complaints about his exams. I don't even know who Steinfeld is TBH.

wildcatatpenn
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby wildcatatpenn » Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:05 pm

PennBull wrote:
wildcatatpenn wrote:
PennBull wrote:
wildcatatpenn wrote:Hey guys, upperclassmen/grads etc......

when we graduate, what do they give in terms of relative grades? Do we then get an exact GPA # (like 3.454)? Or do we get a ranking (e.g. top 65%)? Or is it just the summa/wtv titles and you are still not allowed to give out GPA/percentile?

tyvm


the latter


you mean just the latin honors right? and still not allowed to provide a GPA?


yes

it shouldn't matter anyways


Well I am working in a market with very very few Penn grads, so not having to say i'm in the bottom 15%, and instead being able to just show a transcript with a bunch of B/B+/A-... this is great. also probably feel a little more okay with taking more classes that are graded harshly that i'm interested in if I don't have to be concerned with it dragging down by percentile.

and thanks!!

Penn16
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Penn16 » Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:53 pm

Any advice on Wachter for Corporate Finance?

PennBrady
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBrady » Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:03 pm

Penn16 wrote:Any advice on Wachter for Corporate Finance?


He is really, really bad for Corporations. Spends most of the class rambling on unrelated tangents, explains nothing, asks incomprehensible questions, and sends weird emails twice a day linking to extracurricular reading (that again explain nothing about corporate law).

No idea how that plays out in Corporate Finance, but I would probably avoid him altogether.

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sopranorleone
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby sopranorleone » Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:22 pm

PennBrady wrote:
Penn16 wrote:Any advice on Wachter for Corporate Finance?


He is really, really bad for Corporations. Spends most of the class rambling on unrelated tangents, explains nothing, asks incomprehensible questions, and sends weird emails twice a day linking to extracurricular reading (that again explain nothing about corporate law).

No idea how that plays out in Corporate Finance, but I would probably avoid him altogether.


I had him for Corp Fin. I liked him and the class a lot. He made a lot of jokes about how bad his mother-in-law was at personal finance. Final was long, but fair. You have homework assignments too, but they're ungraded. Definitely helps to do them though.

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B.B. Homemaker
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby B.B. Homemaker » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:12 pm

PennBrady wrote:
Penn16 wrote:Any advice on Wachter for Corporate Finance?


He is really, really bad for Corporations. Spends most of the class rambling on unrelated tangents, explains nothing, asks incomprehensible questions, and sends weird emails twice a day linking to extracurricular reading (that again explain nothing about corporate law).

No idea how that plays out in Corporate Finance, but I would probably avoid him altogether.

YUP

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:17 pm

I've heard he's fucking awful for Corporations but fine for Corp Fin., at least better than Bratton

I've seen his optional homework for Corp Fin--they're actually really helpful and useful for learning the material for a final. A little bit more guidance than Bratton will ever give you.

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DCNTUA
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby DCNTUA » Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:54 pm

Sorry if this is a ridiculous question, but what does it mean when a class has two professors listed? Privacy next semester has Yoo/Steinfeld.

https://goat.law.upenn.edu/cf/coursefin ... 15A&page=1

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:13 pm

DCNTUA wrote:Sorry if this is a ridiculous question, but what does it mean when a class has two professors listed? Privacy next semester has Yoo/Steinfeld.

https://goat.law.upenn.edu/cf/coursefin ... 15A&page=1


It means two professors teach the class

doing_it_in_a_car
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby doing_it_in_a_car » Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:09 pm

Question: do law firms at OCI care about 1L spring electives? Would privacy law and law and society in japan look bad if i'm aiming for corporate? Or should I bite the bullet and take admin?

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:05 am

doing_it_in_a_car wrote:Question: do law firms at OCI care about 1L spring electives? Would privacy law and law and society in japan look bad if i'm aiming for corporate? Or should I bite the bullet and take admin?


Grades are the most important part, but a bad grade is exacerbated if it's for a bullshit sounding course. If it's a good grade then it really doesn't matter.

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby r6_philly » Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:51 pm

Take whatever course you think will get you the best grade. Since it's not like an exact science, then avoid whatever course that you think will get you a bad grade. I think many firms look at transcripts for the following 2 things:

1. What's the worst grade?
2. How many of those are there?

I feel that 1L subjects in law school are so far removed from actual practice, all the courses simply offer employers more (and probably fungible) chances to gauge your potential.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:23 pm

r6_philly wrote:Take whatever course you think will get you the best grade. Since it's not like an exact science, then avoid whatever course that you think will get you a bad grade. I think many firms look at transcripts for the following 2 things:

1. What's the worst grade?
2. How many of those are there?

I feel that 1L subjects in law school are so far removed from actual practice, all the courses simply offer employers more (and probably fungible) chances to gauge your potential.


yeah but there's a few more courses offered now than when we were there that are much more apparent bullshit haha

but yeah i agree that one should just go for grades

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby r6_philly » Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:56 am

I'm still waiting for a bok course as related to food justice: pumpkin carving.

wildcatatpenn
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby wildcatatpenn » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:11 pm

Registration closes this weekend, anyone know anything about Finkelstein? I really need to take evidence for the prereqs for clinics and pro bono stuff but missed it this semester

Fertel also teaching it, but looks like its her first law school class, and closed book final. Really don't wanna deal with that crap anymore as a 2L memorizing shit

Finkelstein doesn't have any evaluations up either though. She seems super theroetical ("Yaley"), which sucks, but better than a closed book final... Unless she's a huge deuche like some of the other theoretical profs here. Or harsh grader/other factor

Anyone have any input? Thanks a bunch

legendary47
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby legendary47 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:12 pm

wildcatatpenn wrote:Registration closes this weekend, anyone know anything about Finkelstein? I really need to take evidence for the prereqs for clinics and pro bono stuff but missed it this semester

Fertel also teaching it, but looks like its her first law school class, and closed book final. Really don't wanna deal with that crap anymore as a 2L memorizing shit

Finkelstein doesn't have any evaluations up either though. She seems super theroetical ("Yaley"), which sucks, but better than a closed book final... Unless she's a huge deuche like some of the other theoretical profs here. Or harsh grader/other factor

Anyone have any input? Thanks a bunch


Read the evaluations from her Contracts classes. She regularly showed up 10 minutes late for class, blew off office hours, and generally showed no respect to the class. I had no problems with her teaching style (you're right that she is super theoretical and into philosophy), but the general disrespect is a deal killer. Maybe she's better for upper level classes but I'd take Fertel. She also mentioned in Contracts that she'd never taken Evidence in law school and she's never practiced (or taken the bar), so not sure where she gets off teaching Evidence. (The answer to that probably is enough 1Ls complained to the administration that she can't teach 1Ls anymore and she'd previously taught Evidence at another school). Seriously, read the Contracts evals before you enroll.

legendary47
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby legendary47 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:15 pm

Penn16 wrote:Do NOT take Lee for Admin. That class was awful and the 24-hour take home exam was brutal. Abrams for Law & Econ was great: easy, little required reading, very laid back, and easy exam with a very generous curve.


I actually liked Lee for Admin a lot. Class was boring, but that'll be the case for any Admin professor. If you go to class, take good notes, and look over practice exams, the exam is really manageable. The class and lectures are EXTREMELY well organized and Lee is incredibly nice.

PennBrady
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBrady » Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:43 am

legendary47 wrote:
wildcatatpenn wrote:Registration closes this weekend, anyone know anything about Finkelstein? I really need to take evidence for the prereqs for clinics and pro bono stuff but missed it this semester

Fertel also teaching it, but looks like its her first law school class, and closed book final. Really don't wanna deal with that crap anymore as a 2L memorizing shit

Finkelstein doesn't have any evaluations up either though. She seems super theroetical ("Yaley"), which sucks, but better than a closed book final... Unless she's a huge deuche like some of the other theoretical profs here. Or harsh grader/other factor

Anyone have any input? Thanks a bunch


Read the evaluations from her Contracts classes. She regularly showed up 10 minutes late for class, blew off office hours, and generally showed no respect to the class. I had no problems with her teaching style (you're right that she is super theoretical and into philosophy), but the general disrespect is a deal killer. Maybe she's better for upper level classes but I'd take Fertel. She also mentioned in Contracts that she'd never taken Evidence in law school and she's never practiced (or taken the bar), so not sure where she gets off teaching Evidence. (The answer to that probably is enough 1Ls complained to the administration that she can't teach 1Ls anymore and she'd previously taught Evidence at another school). Seriously, read the Contracts evals before you enroll.


All of the above, and I would argue her teaching "style" is garbage; she overcomplicates simple concepts, presents material haphazardly, and in general is less useful a use of your class time than reading supplements. With the exception of the fact that she holds really weird (read: wrong, or at least extremely opinionated) beliefs about the law which you will be expected to parrot on exams.

But the bottom line is as the above poster said, that she just doesn't give a shit about her students or take her job as a teacher remotely seriously. She's a walking argument against tenure, so I don't recommend taking anything from her if you can avoid it.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:51 am

man, core class professors really seem to have gotten 10000x shittier than when I was a 1L

notgreat
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby notgreat » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:51 am

PennBull wrote:man, core class professors really seem to have gotten 10000x shittier than when I was a 1L


Two out of my five core professors and one of my elective professors from 1L were objectively shitty. Not sure how that stacks up to c/o of 2014.

PennBrady
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBrady » Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:49 pm

Any differences between Veasey or Reich for Professional Responsibility? Either one less work/hassle than the other?

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:02 pm

PennBrady wrote:Any differences between Veasey or Reich for Professional Responsibility? Either one less work/hassle than the other?


oh my god definitely Reich. don't show up for any classes, take a day and a half to memorize the outline that will inevitably get shared around, get a solid grade




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