Penn Students Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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OutCold
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby OutCold » Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:08 pm

ohpobrecito wrote:Hey everyone,

Sorry if this has been addressed elsewhere, but does anyone know what sort of grades one would need to snag Northern California biglaw?


Your ties are going be equally important.

Blackfish
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Blackfish » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:45 pm

I noticed that Penn requires a dean's certification letter before matriculation. Do you guys remember if Penn has a specific form they send out to be filled out like Cornell (and if so when do we get the form), or do I just ask my UG Dean to write one and send it directly to Penn?

I will be out of the country for a few months leading up to orientation, and I hope to get all the documents in before I am abroad.

As always, TYIA!

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Nelson
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Nelson » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:13 pm

Blackfish wrote:I noticed that Penn requires a dean's certification letter before matriculation. Do you guys remember if Penn has a specific form they send out to be filled out like Cornell (and if so when do we get the form), or do I just ask my UG Dean to write one and send it directly to Penn?

I will be out of the country for a few months leading up to orientation, and I hope to get all the documents in before I am abroad.

As always, TYIA!

They have a form you need to send to your undergrad dean/registrar.

csk8
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby csk8 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:14 pm

hi all!

re: ASW...do people bring their spouses, boyfriends, girlfriends, etc.? Is it generally looked down upon? Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated!

thanks!

04102014
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby 04102014 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:27 pm

Is anyone able to speak to Penn's (soft) IP programs/support? Are students interested in IP generally successful at landing jerbs?

Thanks for all the help btw :P

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Nelson
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Nelson » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:32 pm

ohpobrecito wrote:Is anyone able to speak to Penn's (soft) IP programs/support? Are students interested in IP generally successful at landing jerbs?

Thanks for all the help btw :P

What do you mean by soft IP? If you mean patent litigation as opposed to prosecution, there's a lot of opportunities but your grades and your prior background matter more. There's quite a few patent lit focused people in my year, not all of whom have engineering backgrounds. If you mean copyright/trademark, those aren't really areas that generate much business for biglaw so there aren't really many jobs.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:04 pm

csk8 wrote:hi all!

re: ASW...do people bring their spouses, boyfriends, girlfriends, etc.? Is it generally looked down upon? Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated!

thanks!


People bring SOs, but the vast majority don't

It's not looked down upon, but the people who bring them usually are doing so because their SO has a stake in what school they go to i.e. switching jobs, also choosing a grad program, etc

If you're just bringing an SO to come hang out with you for the weekend checking out the school I wouldn't recommend it

bhanson10
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby bhanson10 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:14 pm

OutCold wrote:I lived on Rittenhouse for the first two years. I currently live out in East Falls, right next to a stop on the Chestnut Hill West line. I'd be happy to talk about either if there is interest.

Just wondering, how hard would it be commuting from Manayunk/Roxborough area? I have a wife, a dog, and a sister with a dog who will be going to eastern university, so I was hoping I could find somewhere with less than a 30 min commute on public transportation and somewhere to park a car for my sister's commute. Thanks!

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Nelson
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Nelson » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:52 pm

bhanson10 wrote:
OutCold wrote:I lived on Rittenhouse for the first two years. I currently live out in East Falls, right next to a stop on the Chestnut Hill West line. I'd be happy to talk about either if there is interest.

Just wondering, how hard would it be commuting from Manayunk/Roxborough area? I have a wife, a dog, and a sister with a dog who will be going to eastern university, so I was hoping I could find somewhere with less than a 30 min commute on public transportation and somewhere to park a car for my sister's commute. Thanks!

That's probably less than ideal for 1L just because you'll be beholden to regional rail: not the end of the world, but not the most convenient either; trains run every hour or so outside of rush hour. Your door-to-door wouldn't be less than 30 minutes though. There are some nice neighborhoods in West Philly where there's parking though. That probably makes your sister's commute worse but would make your life better.

bhanson10
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby bhanson10 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:03 pm

Nelson wrote:
bhanson10 wrote:
OutCold wrote:I lived on Rittenhouse for the first two years. I currently live out in East Falls, right next to a stop on the Chestnut Hill West line. I'd be happy to talk about either if there is interest.

Just wondering, how hard would it be commuting from Manayunk/Roxborough area? I have a wife, a dog, and a sister with a dog who will be going to eastern university, so I was hoping I could find somewhere with less than a 30 min commute on public transportation and somewhere to park a car for my sister's commute. Thanks!

That's probably less than ideal for 1L just because you'll be beholden to regional rail: not the end of the world, but not the most convenient either; trains run every hour or so outside of rush hour. Your door-to-door wouldn't be less than 30 minutes though. There are some nice neighborhoods in West Philly where there's parking though. That probably makes your sister's commute worse but would make your life better.

Thanks for the response! I'm not sure if this has already been addressed, but what would be some nicer areas of west phili?

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Nelson
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Nelson » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:02 pm

bhanson10 wrote:
Nelson wrote:
bhanson10 wrote:
OutCold wrote:I lived on Rittenhouse for the first two years. I currently live out in East Falls, right next to a stop on the Chestnut Hill West line. I'd be happy to talk about either if there is interest.

Just wondering, how hard would it be commuting from Manayunk/Roxborough area? I have a wife, a dog, and a sister with a dog who will be going to eastern university, so I was hoping I could find somewhere with less than a 30 min commute on public transportation and somewhere to park a car for my sister's commute. Thanks!

That's probably less than ideal for 1L just because you'll be beholden to regional rail: not the end of the world, but not the most convenient either; trains run every hour or so outside of rush hour. Your door-to-door wouldn't be less than 30 minutes though. There are some nice neighborhoods in West Philly where there's parking though. That probably makes your sister's commute worse but would make your life better.

Thanks for the response! I'm not sure if this has already been addressed, but what would be some nicer areas of west phili?

I would do some searches for places in Spruce Hill. It's a neighborhood southwest of the university around Baltimore Avenue. A different feel from Roxborough, but a good mix of young professionals and people affiliated with the university. You don't have to worry about schools so that makes things a little easier.

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OutCold
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby OutCold » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:18 am

bhanson10 wrote:
OutCold wrote:I lived on Rittenhouse for the first two years. I currently live out in East Falls, right next to a stop on the Chestnut Hill West line. I'd be happy to talk about either if there is interest.

Just wondering, how hard would it be commuting from Manayunk/Roxborough area? I have a wife, a dog, and a sister with a dog who will be going to eastern university, so I was hoping I could find somewhere with less than a 30 min commute on public transportation and somewhere to park a car for my sister's commute. Thanks!


It's not that bad at all. From where I am in East Falls, the total commute is about 30-40 mins on the Chestnut Hill West line when you account for walk to the station, walk to the subway or school, etc. Manayunk and Roxborough will be further though. In any case, my SO lived out here 1L year so I did the commute often. If, god forbid, you feel the need to work all of your waking hours, you can read on the train easily enough. Shoot me a PM if you want more details.

Edit: Parking is pretty readily available out here too.

run26.2
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby run26.2 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:50 pm

bhanson10 wrote:
OutCold wrote:I lived on Rittenhouse for the first two years. I currently live out in East Falls, right next to a stop on the Chestnut Hill West line. I'd be happy to talk about either if there is interest.

Just wondering, how hard would it be commuting from Manayunk/Roxborough area? I have a wife, a dog, and a sister with a dog who will be going to eastern university, so I was hoping I could find somewhere with less than a 30 min commute on public transportation and somewhere to park a car for my sister's commute. Thanks!

I lived in Manayunk when I went to Penn, but I drove in. However, my wife too public trans to University City every day.

The pros are that you can read on the train, if you want, you get a bit of exercise to/from each station, and it's cheaper than paying for parking near Penn. The cons are that your commute probably takes longer (however as a 1L you probably will be heading in during rush hour so it may be longer to drive), and there will be times when you have to wait for the train in the cold and/or rain.

BTW - I loved Manayunk (for several reasons), but you should consider whether you want to be that far from where all your classmates will be, if you plan to do a lot of socializing with them. It is far less convenient to live out there if you will be hanging out with them more than 1x/week in the evening.

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goldenboy514
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby goldenboy514 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:14 am

How successful are students whose number 1 choice would be to stay and do philly biglaw. Does Penn draw a big Philly OCI pool or is it generally just the top philly firms?

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Nelson
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Nelson » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:27 am

goldenboy514 wrote:How successful are students whose number 1 choice would be to stay and do philly biglaw. Does Penn draw a big Philly OCI pool or is it generally just the top philly firms?

All of the Philly firms with regular SA classes recruit (Morgan Lewis, Dechert, Pepper, Ballard, Duane Morris, Fox Rothschild, Drinker Biddle, Cozen, etc.). Others are accessible via mailing and you're obviously in an advantageous position for networking.

Ties to the area are very important. Firms are very concerned with flight risks and yield, as well as your happiness as a junior. Grades are less so, but not irrelevant and firms in Philly are actually somewhat more selective than some NYC firms. OTOH really good grades will make it very hard to get a job in Philly unless you have great ties and a great story.

To answer your question, very successful. Penn sends plenty of students to Philly biglaw but it's not a guarantee or a fallback, esp. without ties, a reason for staying, and decent grades.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:41 pm

Nelson wrote:
goldenboy514 wrote:How successful are students whose number 1 choice would be to stay and do philly biglaw. Does Penn draw a big Philly OCI pool or is it generally just the top philly firms?

All of the Philly firms with regular SA classes recruit (Morgan Lewis, Dechert, Pepper, Ballard, Duane Morris, Fox Rothschild, Drinker Biddle, Cozen, etc.). Others are accessible via mailing and you're obviously in an advantageous position for networking.

Ties to the area are very important. Firms are very concerned with flight risks and yield, as well as your happiness as a junior. Grades are less so, but not irrelevant and firms in Philly are actually somewhat more selective than some NYC firms. OTOH really good grades will make it very hard to get a job in Philly unless you have great ties and a great story.

To answer your question, very successful. Penn sends plenty of students to Philly biglaw but it's not a guarantee or a fallback, esp. without ties, a reason for staying, and decent grades.


Agree, and to build off it: you absolutely, positively must have a good answer for "where else are you looking?" You are inevitably going to have a few NYC options you're interviewing with--or, at least you should be. Convincing the Philly firms that other cities are merely backup plans given a risky legal hiring environment, they'll understand and definitely want you on board. Any hesitation that Philly is not absolutely where you want to be, and they'll go for someone else.

jayohtee
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby jayohtee » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:57 pm

Any sense on how difficult it is to go to Boston or DC? I'd highly prefer the two over NYC of Philly. I have very strong ties to Boston (parents in legal industry there, went to undergrad there, lived there my entire life and currently work there), but I know Penn doesn't place a lot of people there. Is that because Boston firms don't come down to recruit or is it because most Penn students don't want Boston?

Is DC reserved for the top students of the class? Do most who go to DC do BigLaw or is it a lot of government/PI?

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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Penn2Ltruetothis » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:04 pm

Philly firms are very doable from penn. I was torn between Philly and another major market and was very upfront about this throughout the interview process. I think firms appreciate the honesty as I got a couple of offers from Philly firms. I ended up in a different market. As long as you have solid reasons for the firm/Philly being upfront about your preferences won't prevent you from landing an offer.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:06 pm

jayohtee wrote:Any sense on how difficult it is to go to Boston or DC? I'd highly prefer the two over NYC of Philly. I have very strong ties to Boston (parents in legal industry there, went to undergrad there, lived there my entire life and currently work there), but I know Penn doesn't place a lot of people there. Is that because Boston firms don't come down to recruit or is it because most Penn students don't want Boston?

Is DC reserved for the top students of the class? Do most who go to DC do BigLaw or is it a lot of government/PI?


I got a Boston callback without ever having ties there, but I think I was the exception.

There just aren't a lot of Boston firms/offices that recruit out of Penn--most of the firms that have offices there are using Penn more for their NY/DC hiring. They'll list their Boston office and will callback a few folks from Penn for their Boston office, though.

I don't know what the split of people who go to DC do, but you do need better grades for BigLaw than say, NYC because it's a lot more competitive.

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Nelson
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Nelson » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:15 pm

jayohtee wrote:Any sense on how difficult it is to go to Boston or DC? I'd highly prefer the two over NYC of Philly. I have very strong ties to Boston (parents in legal industry there, went to undergrad there, lived there my entire life and currently work there), but I know Penn doesn't place a lot of people there. Is that because Boston firms don't come down to recruit or is it because most Penn students don't want Boston?

Is DC reserved for the top students of the class? Do most who go to DC do BigLaw or is it a lot of government/PI?

DC biglaw is accessible, but mostly for people with good to great grades. All of the big DC firms come to OCI. The thing to know about DC is that there are way fewer SA slots than NYC, the biggest DC summer classes are at the most selective firms (Cov, Williams, Wilmer, etc.), and DC is very popular so you're going to be competing with the top of the class. Focusing on DC if you're around median is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot at OCI. That said, it feels like each year half of the law review goes with DC firms over NYC. My impression was that ties and previous connections to DC were pretty much irrelevant to DC firms (or at least such a small consideration compared to grades + LR that they bordered on irrelevant) because they assume that DC is a great city for lawyers and everyone wants to work there. I think most of the DC-bound-at-graduation people in the employment stats are going to firms not government (since getting fedgov straight out of law school is basically impossible and most of the gov't types will clerk and end up in those stats).

I think a couple of the Boston firms come to OCI, but if you're serious about it you're going to have to do a lot of the legwork yourself through mass mail.
Last edited by Nelson on Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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180kickflip
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby 180kickflip » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:19 pm

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Last edited by 180kickflip on Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Nelson
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Nelson » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:21 pm

180kickflip wrote:I did undergrad at Rutgers and my SO (probably fiance/wife by the time this question matters) is a UPenn alum. Would that, her family living in Cherry Hill, or the fact that I have a lot of college friends in Philly be considered sufficient/decent ties (assuming I had the grades to make ties relevant)? I apologize if this is an obvious answer =/

I think that your "ties" in the sense of connection to the area are sufficient, but what would make or break you is whether you're telling a good story about wanting to stay. If your SO has a permanent job in the area, that is obviously going to go a long way towards making your story believable.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:24 pm

Nelson wrote:
180kickflip wrote:I did undergrad at Rutgers and my SO (probably fiance/wife by the time this question matters) is a UPenn alum. Would that, her family living in Cherry Hill, or the fact that I have a lot of college friends in Philly be considered sufficient/decent ties (assuming I had the grades to make ties relevant)? I apologize if this is an obvious answer =/

I think that your "ties" in the sense of connection to the area are sufficient, but what would make or break you is whether you're telling a good story about wanting to stay. If your SO has a permanent job in the area, that is obviously going to go a long way towards making your story believable.


Yeah it sounds like your story is at least good to show you "prefer" Philly but I think you'd need to be a bit more convincing to show them you definitely want to be in Philadelphia.

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180kickflip
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby 180kickflip » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:35 pm

PennBull wrote:
Nelson wrote:
180kickflip wrote:I did undergrad at Rutgers and my SO (probably fiance/wife by the time this question matters) is a UPenn alum. Would that, her family living in Cherry Hill, or the fact that I have a lot of college friends in Philly be considered sufficient/decent ties (assuming I had the grades to make ties relevant)? I apologize if this is an obvious answer =/

I think that your "ties" in the sense of connection to the area are sufficient, but what would make or break you is whether you're telling a good story about wanting to stay. If your SO has a permanent job in the area, that is obviously going to go a long way towards making your story believable.


Yeah it sounds like your story is at least good to show you "prefer" Philly but I think you'd need to be a bit more convincing to show them you definitely want to be in Philadelphia.


Thanks a lot guys.

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goldenboy514
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby goldenboy514 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:33 am

You guys have been giving very informative responses so I thank you for your time and in depth answers.
In terms of 1L summer employment, do you find that you and most of your classmates are getting positions with judges or leaning towards firm jobs as Penn places most graduates into big law. And are those that secure employment in firms finding it usually in big markets (NYC) for 1L, or are they having more luck in smaller markets (Philly and maybe even Cherry Hill).

I've grown up in Philly my whole life, and have interests in staying and working in Philly after graduation so I'm just a little worried that I'll strike out in Philly OCI and have nothing. Willing to work elsewhere if necessary, but Philly is definitely the end goal.
Thanks again




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