Penn Students Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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Nelson
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Nelson » Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:44 pm

If any 3Ls/grads with experience bidding and interviewing for DC from Penn stalk this thread, I'd greatly appreciate a PM.

westphillybandr
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby westphillybandr » Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:01 pm

Nelson wrote:If any 3Ls/grads with experience bidding and interviewing for DC from Penn stalk this thread, I'd greatly appreciate a PM.

Ditto for NY.

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Ibracadabra
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Ibracadabra » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:28 pm

Nelson wrote:If any 3Ls/grads with experience bidding and interviewing for DC from Penn stalk this thread, I'd greatly appreciate a PM.


I'm interested in this as well, but for the SoCal market.

justicefishy
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby justicefishy » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:35 am

westphillybandr wrote:
Nelson wrote:If any 3Ls/grads with experience bidding and interviewing for DC from Penn stalk this thread, I'd greatly appreciate a PM.

Ditto for NY.


+1 to both of these.

SportsFan
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby SportsFan » Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:14 pm

westphillybandr wrote:
Nelson wrote:If any 3Ls/grads with experience bidding and interviewing for DC from Penn stalk this thread, I'd greatly appreciate a PM.

Ditto for NY.

Yeah, I'll take any advice on NYC and Philly, please. I'm probably gonna start working on my bid list this weekend, since I haven't really given it much thought so far.

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chuckbass
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby chuckbass » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:54 pm

Hey guys. I'm sure questions like this have been asked before, but I really want to get a sense of the opinions of current Penn students. I'll be applying for the upcoming cycle, and I'm leaning heavily towards EDing to Penn, given that Penn is one of my top choices along with NYU and Columbia. I wanted to know people's thoughts on EDing. In my case I have a 3.76 and I'll be retaking the LSAT in October. I got a 159 on the Feb test, and having been on TLS for a while now I obviously have access to a ton of info that I'll use to study for the test, and I'll be devoting a significant amount of time to studying from June to October, which is surely enough time to get me PTing in the 170s. I think that scoring a 170 or a 171 is definitely realistic, and if I did get such a score I'd almost certainly ED to Penn. As Penn students, what do you think about this, given the fact that with a 3.76 and 170+ I could be looking at some $ at Cornell or maybe another T14? My only goal is NYC biglaw, so personally I think that having a greater chance of landing biglaw and being able to pay off sticker is better than having less debt at Cornell or another school where I also have a lower chance of getting biglaw, while I'll still have enough debt that essentially requires biglaw to be paid off. I also really love Penn, so I would be perfectly content locking myself into Penn even if I had a shot at NYU or Columbia. Thanks, and sorry for the long-winded question!

westphillybandr
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby westphillybandr » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:41 pm

Nelson wrote:
westphillybandr wrote:On the topic of grades. What is median after second semester?

Approximately 3.3 (depends on whether you use 3.7 or 3.666 for A- etc.). A grade distribution from a few years ago is on xoxo if you search for it and I don't think it's changed much since then. I'd be interested if anyone has any more recent info.

It doesn't go up after second semester?

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Nelson
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Nelson » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:38 am

scotth724 wrote:Hey guys. I'm sure questions like this have been asked before, but I really want to get a sense of the opinions of current Penn students. I'll be applying for the upcoming cycle, and I'm leaning heavily towards EDing to Penn, given that Penn is one of my top choices along with NYU and Columbia. I wanted to know people's thoughts on EDing. In my case I have a 3.76 and I'll be retaking the LSAT in October. I got a 159 on the Feb test, and having been on TLS for a while now I obviously have access to a ton of info that I'll use to study for the test, and I'll be devoting a significant amount of time to studying from June to October, which is surely enough time to get me PTing in the 170s. I think that scoring a 170 or a 171 is definitely realistic, and if I did get such a score I'd almost certainly ED to Penn. As Penn students, what do you think about this, given the fact that with a 3.76 and 170+ I could be looking at some $ at Cornell or maybe another T14? My only goal is NYC biglaw, so personally I think that having a greater chance of landing biglaw and being able to pay off sticker is better than having less debt at Cornell or another school where I also have a lower chance of getting biglaw, while I'll still have enough debt that essentially requires biglaw to be paid off. I also really love Penn, so I would be perfectly content locking myself into Penn even if I had a shot at NYU or Columbia. Thanks, and sorry for the long-winded question!

Don't pay sticker for Penn without compelling reasons to be in Philly if you can get money elsewhere in the T14.

Eta: don't ED with a 3.76/171. Those numbers should get you at least 15k per yr at Penn RD and 90k+ at at least one of NW/Cornell/Duke.
Last edited by Nelson on Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Nelson
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Nelson » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:40 am

westphillybandr wrote:
Nelson wrote:
westphillybandr wrote:On the topic of grades. What is median after second semester?

Approximately 3.3 (depends on whether you use 3.7 or 3.666 for A- etc.). A grade distribution from a few years ago is on xoxo if you search for it and I don't think it's changed much since then. I'd be interested if anyone has any more recent info.

It doesn't go up after second semester?

Curve is the same for most classes except the small electives so if it goes up it's not by much. It goes up way more after this year as a lot more classes are off the curve.

SportsFan
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby SportsFan » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:43 am

I think the biggest factor on whether the curve goes up or down after first semester is how many C's the professors give second semester relative to first semester. More C's, and its gonna go down. But practically/realistically, I think the median is like 3.28-3.30.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:40 am

Nelson wrote:
scotth724 wrote:Hey guys. I'm sure questions like this have been asked before, but I really want to get a sense of the opinions of current Penn students. I'll be applying for the upcoming cycle, and I'm leaning heavily towards EDing to Penn, given that Penn is one of my top choices along with NYU and Columbia. I wanted to know people's thoughts on EDing. In my case I have a 3.76 and I'll be retaking the LSAT in October. I got a 159 on the Feb test, and having been on TLS for a while now I obviously have access to a ton of info that I'll use to study for the test, and I'll be devoting a significant amount of time to studying from June to October, which is surely enough time to get me PTing in the 170s. I think that scoring a 170 or a 171 is definitely realistic, and if I did get such a score I'd almost certainly ED to Penn. As Penn students, what do you think about this, given the fact that with a 3.76 and 170+ I could be looking at some $ at Cornell or maybe another T14? My only goal is NYC biglaw, so personally I think that having a greater chance of landing biglaw and being able to pay off sticker is better than having less debt at Cornell or another school where I also have a lower chance of getting biglaw, while I'll still have enough debt that essentially requires biglaw to be paid off. I also really love Penn, so I would be perfectly content locking myself into Penn even if I had a shot at NYU or Columbia. Thanks, and sorry for the long-winded question!

Don't pay sticker for Penn without compelling reasons to be in Philly if you can get money elsewhere in the T14.

Eta: don't ED with a 3.76/171. Those numbers should get you at least 15k per yr at Penn RD and 90k+ at at least one of NW/Cornell/Duke.


I'd personally pay sticker price for Penn if I had less than 10-15k undergrad debt.

I also agree that EDing anywhere with a 3.76/170 is a bad move.

SportsFan
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby SportsFan » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:05 am

This might be sort of dumb, but since Penn doesn't give an 'official' GPA, when firms calculate ours, do they bother to calculate a weighted GPA (taking into account that electives or worth less credits) or do they just add up all the classes and treat them equally? My unweighted is 0.02 better so hopefully firms are lazy. :lol:

stacy
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby stacy » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:44 pm

PennBull wrote:
Nelson wrote:
scotth724 wrote:Hey guys. I'm sure questions like this have been asked before, but I really want to get a sense of the opinions of current Penn students. I'll be applying for the upcoming cycle, and I'm leaning heavily towards EDing to Penn, given that Penn is one of my top choices along with NYU and Columbia. I wanted to know people's thoughts on EDing. In my case I have a 3.76 and I'll be retaking the LSAT in October. I got a 159 on the Feb test, and having been on TLS for a while now I obviously have access to a ton of info that I'll use to study for the test, and I'll be devoting a significant amount of time to studying from June to October, which is surely enough time to get me PTing in the 170s. I think that scoring a 170 or a 171 is definitely realistic, and if I did get such a score I'd almost certainly ED to Penn. As Penn students, what do you think about this, given the fact that with a 3.76 and 170+ I could be looking at some $ at Cornell or maybe another T14? My only goal is NYC biglaw, so personally I think that having a greater chance of landing biglaw and being able to pay off sticker is better than having less debt at Cornell or another school where I also have a lower chance of getting biglaw, while I'll still have enough debt that essentially requires biglaw to be paid off. I also really love Penn, so I would be perfectly content locking myself into Penn even if I had a shot at NYU or Columbia. Thanks, and sorry for the long-winded question!

Don't pay sticker for Penn without compelling reasons to be in Philly if you can get money elsewhere in the T14.

Eta: don't ED with a 3.76/171. Those numbers should get you at least 15k per yr at Penn RD and 90k+ at at least one of NW/Cornell/Duke.


I'd personally pay sticker price for Penn if I had less than 10-15k undergrad debt.

I also agree that EDing anywhere with a 3.76/170 is a bad move.

I did ED to Penn with better numbers than those. I hate myself for not knowing about TLS before I applied. I no scholarship and had a decent chance at HSY.

I took bad advice to apply to at least one school ED, it was a mistake in retrospect. But Penn sounds like a great school especially how much people seem to enjoy it unlike other law schools. I'm happy to be going there and came to terms with applying ED, just going to be really tight on cash for a few years.

Point being I agree with the above don't do ED if you have T14 grades. Especially because there has been a huge decline in the amount of 170's each year.

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dsn32
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby dsn32 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:50 pm

scotth724 wrote:Hey guys. I'm sure questions like this have been asked before, but I really want to get a sense of the opinions of current Penn students. I'll be applying for the upcoming cycle, and I'm leaning heavily towards EDing to Penn, given that Penn is one of my top choices along with NYU and Columbia. I wanted to know people's thoughts on EDing. In my case I have a 3.76 and I'll be retaking the LSAT in October. I got a 159 on the Feb test, and having been on TLS for a while now I obviously have access to a ton of info that I'll use to study for the test, and I'll be devoting a significant amount of time to studying from June to October, which is surely enough time to get me PTing in the 170s. I think that scoring a 170 or a 171 is definitely realistic, and if I did get such a score I'd almost certainly ED to Penn. As Penn students, what do you think about this, given the fact that with a 3.76 and 170+ I could be looking at some $ at Cornell or maybe another T14? My only goal is NYC biglaw, so personally I think that having a greater chance of landing biglaw and being able to pay off sticker is better than having less debt at Cornell or another school where I also have a lower chance of getting biglaw, while I'll still have enough debt that essentially requires biglaw to be paid off. I also really love Penn, so I would be perfectly content locking myself into Penn even if I had a shot at NYU or Columbia. Thanks, and sorry for the long-winded question!


Don't ED. Even if you're pretty sure Penn is your top choice now, a scholly to another T14 + a visit could change your mind, and you want to have those options. I personally would have never ended up at Penn if I didn't keep my options open throughout the cycle, and by the end of my cycle it was by far my top choice.

justicefishy
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby justicefishy » Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:42 am

SportsFan wrote:This might be sort of dumb, but since Penn doesn't give an 'official' GPA, when firms calculate ours, do they bother to calculate a weighted GPA (taking into account that electives or worth less credits) or do they just add up all the classes and treat them equally? My unweighted is 0.02 better so hopefully firms are lazy. :lol:


I talked to CP&P today for bid list review (because I was bored doing research on insurance) and they told me that firms don't look at GPA as much as grade distribution. Like 2 A's and a B are the same as 3 A-'s but a firm might prefer one over the other even though the GPA is the same.

SportsFan
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby SportsFan » Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:22 pm

justicefishy wrote:
SportsFan wrote:This might be sort of dumb, but since Penn doesn't give an 'official' GPA, when firms calculate ours, do they bother to calculate a weighted GPA (taking into account that electives or worth less credits) or do they just add up all the classes and treat them equally? My unweighted is 0.02 better so hopefully firms are lazy. :lol:


I talked to CP&P today for bid list review (because I was bored doing research on insurance) and they told me that firms don't look at GPA as much as grade distribution. Like 2 A's and a B are the same as 3 A-'s but a firm might prefer one over the other even though the GPA is the same.

I forget who, but someone posted on here a while ago that firms basically take 2 approaches. Some will just glance at your grades and see if they match what they're looking for, while others will actually calculate your GPA. At least if they just do the glancing method, I don't have any B-'s (or C's), so maybe that'll subliminally help. :lol:

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chuckbass
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby chuckbass » Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:45 pm

Thanks everyone for the input on my ED thoughts. I'm definitely less inclined to ED now, but I'll have to wait until I retake to be sure what I'm planning on doing.

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laotze
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby laotze » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:27 pm

Nelson wrote:
scotth724 wrote:Hey guys. I'm sure questions like this have been asked before, but I really want to get a sense of the opinions of current Penn students. I'll be applying for the upcoming cycle, and I'm leaning heavily towards EDing to Penn, given that Penn is one of my top choices along with NYU and Columbia. I wanted to know people's thoughts on EDing. In my case I have a 3.76 and I'll be retaking the LSAT in October. I got a 159 on the Feb test, and having been on TLS for a while now I obviously have access to a ton of info that I'll use to study for the test, and I'll be devoting a significant amount of time to studying from June to October, which is surely enough time to get me PTing in the 170s. I think that scoring a 170 or a 171 is definitely realistic, and if I did get such a score I'd almost certainly ED to Penn. As Penn students, what do you think about this, given the fact that with a 3.76 and 170+ I could be looking at some $ at Cornell or maybe another T14? My only goal is NYC biglaw, so personally I think that having a greater chance of landing biglaw and being able to pay off sticker is better than having less debt at Cornell or another school where I also have a lower chance of getting biglaw, while I'll still have enough debt that essentially requires biglaw to be paid off. I also really love Penn, so I would be perfectly content locking myself into Penn even if I had a shot at NYU or Columbia. Thanks, and sorry for the long-winded question!

Don't pay sticker for Penn without compelling reasons to be in Philly if you can get money elsewhere in the T14.


I have to disagree with this. Given placement statistics, Penn at sticker might still be a better investment than, say, Georgetown with $$. Now, if we're talking a full or near-full ride, that's a different matter, but I would say it's likely reasonable to pay sticker at Penn for the equivalent of up to 50% ride at GULC or Cornell, depending on one's level of pre-existing UG debt.

Still, I completely agree with Nelson and others in saying that ED is a bad idea with those numbers. Unless you have a really, REALLY good reason to be at Penn specifically and can't afford to take chances, you're basically screwing yourself out of a lot of potential scholly cash.

whatsthat
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby whatsthat » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:34 pm

hey guys,
i would've asked this earlier but for some reason, it didn't really bother me before but it's bothering me now...
i'm a rising 2L at Penn and I...got a B- last semester. :oops: It puts my cumulative gpa (weighted, won't say exactly what) around 3.3. Please be honest. I talked briefly with cpp about structuring my bid list and they seemed to think that I wasn't out of the running except for the most grade-conscious firms (I guess like boies, kirkland, wachtell, etc, which, lets be honest, my grades probably aren't good enough for anyway even without the B-). any wisdom about prospects or just generally would be greatly appreciated.

edit to add clarification of my concern: a B- looks freaking bad!!

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:39 pm

whatsthat wrote:hey guys,
i would've asked this earlier but for some reason, it didn't really bother me before but it's bothering me now...
i'm a rising 2L at Penn and I...got a B- last semester. :oops: It puts my cumulative gpa (weighted, won't say exactly what) around 3.3. Please be honest. I talked briefly with cpp about structuring my bid list and they seemed to think that I wasn't out of the running except for the most grade-conscious firms (I guess like boies, kirkland, wachtell, etc, which, lets be honest, my grades probably aren't good enough for anyway even without the B-). any wisdom about prospects or just generally would be greatly appreciated.

edit to add clarification of my concern: a B- looks freaking bad!!


You're fine.

You might get a question or two on it, but just make sure to talk to your professor and get some feedback; that way, you'll sound good in an interview concerning correcting your mistakes.

You obviously have good grades otherwise. Would not sweat it at all.

SportsFan
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby SportsFan » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:39 pm

Is there that much of a difference between having a B- and not having one? :shock:

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:42 pm

SportsFan wrote:Is there that much of a difference between having a B- and not having one? :shock:


PennBull wrote:You might get a question or two on it

westphillybandr
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby westphillybandr » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:40 pm

Will ties being an issue for Philly biglaw firms for those going to Penn? Is going to Penn enough?

whatsthat
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby whatsthat » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:00 pm

PennBull wrote:You're fine.

You might get a question or two on it, but just make sure to talk to your professor and get some feedback; that way, you'll sound good in an interview concerning correcting your mistakes.

You obviously have good grades otherwise. Would not sweat it at all.

thanks for the encouragement. i'm getting kind of panicked seeing some of the posts in the employment forum like "median at M, won't get a job through OCI."

SportsFan
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby SportsFan » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:10 pm

westphillybandr wrote:Will ties being an issue for Philly biglaw firms for those going to Penn? Is going to Penn enough?

I asked one of my friends (who works as a paralegal at one of the big firms in Philly) to talk to one of the hiring partners there to see what they look for when they hire from Penn. The answer I got via my friend was basically that personality is by far the most important thing (this firm no-offered someone from another school last summer because of fit concerns, for example). Apparently, Philly biglaw thinks most Penn kids are elitists who think they're too good for Philly firms (remember, a lot of people at these firms are going to be Temple and Villanova grads who will be thinking "why do you wanna work HERE?"). But if you can overcome that (and show a good reason why you want to be in Philly long-term, though I don't think prior ties are necessary), then you can get Philly biglaw. Maybe other hiring partners think completely differently from the one my friend spoke to, but I figured I'd share. Feel free to PM me if you want a few more details.




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