Penn Students Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
senorhosh
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby senorhosh » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:40 am

How does not being ranked affect your job search?

My theory is that everyone around median will be treated the same, unless you have extremely high or low grades. Median at Penn has a large buffer and only those who really killed their grades (both ways) stick out. Hence, grades are less important and interviewing plays a bigger part. Can anyone qualify this?

Also, I know Penn's class is relatively small. What are the pros and cons of a smaller class (in terms of job hunting, grading, etc.)?
I also would think a smaller class allows for a smaller buffer in terms of grades (and "ranking"). True?

Thanks.

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Veyron
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Veyron » Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:26 pm

senorhosh wrote:How does not being ranked affect your job search?

My theory is that everyone around median will be treated the same, unless you have extremely high or low grades. Median at Penn has a large buffer and only those who really killed their grades (both ways) stick out. Hence, grades are less important and interviewing plays a bigger part. Can anyone qualify this?

Also, I know Penn's class is relatively small. What are the pros and cons of a smaller class (in terms of job hunting, grading, etc.)?
I also would think a smaller class allows for a smaller buffer in terms of grades (and "ranking"). True?

Thanks.


Your (first) theory is correct.

HeavenWood
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:38 pm

Veyron wrote:
senorhosh wrote:How does not being ranked affect your job search?

My theory is that everyone around median will be treated the same, unless you have extremely high or low grades. Median at Penn has a large buffer and only those who really killed their grades (both ways) stick out. Hence, grades are less important and interviewing plays a bigger part. Can anyone qualify this?

Also, I know Penn's class is relatively small. What are the pros and cons of a smaller class (in terms of job hunting, grading, etc.)?
I also would think a smaller class allows for a smaller buffer in terms of grades (and "ranking"). True?

Thanks.


Your (first) theory is correct.

This. OCI employers obviously know median is somewhere around a 3.3, and they can guess that top 1/3 and top 10% are respectively around 3.5 and 3.7. But because they don't know with certainty, it forces them to evaluate candidates in bands, as opposed to a point-by-point order.

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No13baby
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby No13baby » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:41 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
Veyron wrote:
senorhosh wrote:How does not being ranked affect your job search?

My theory is that everyone around median will be treated the same, unless you have extremely high or low grades. Median at Penn has a large buffer and only those who really killed their grades (both ways) stick out. Hence, grades are less important and interviewing plays a bigger part. Can anyone qualify this?

Also, I know Penn's class is relatively small. What are the pros and cons of a smaller class (in terms of job hunting, grading, etc.)?
I also would think a smaller class allows for a smaller buffer in terms of grades (and "ranking"). True?

Thanks.


Your (first) theory is correct.

This. OCI employers obviously know median is somewhere around a 3.3, and they can guess that top 1/3 and top 10% are respectively around 3.5 and 3.7. But because they don't know with certainty, it forces them to evaluate candidates in bands, as opposed to a point-by-point order.


Have firms really not figured this out after however many years of interviewing Penn students?

HeavenWood
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:18 pm

No13baby wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
Veyron wrote:
senorhosh wrote:How does not being ranked affect your job search?

My theory is that everyone around median will be treated the same, unless you have extremely high or low grades. Median at Penn has a large buffer and only those who really killed their grades (both ways) stick out. Hence, grades are less important and interviewing plays a bigger part. Can anyone qualify this?

Also, I know Penn's class is relatively small. What are the pros and cons of a smaller class (in terms of job hunting, grading, etc.)?
I also would think a smaller class allows for a smaller buffer in terms of grades (and "ranking"). True?

Thanks.


Your (first) theory is correct.

This. OCI employers obviously know median is somewhere around a 3.3, and they can guess that top 1/3 and top 10% are respectively around 3.5 and 3.7. But because they don't know with certainty, it forces them to evaluate candidates in bands, as opposed to a point-by-point order.


Have firms really not figured this out after however many years of interviewing Penn students?

Like I said, they know around where everything is, but because the actual numbers are a closely-kept secret, they can't nickel-and-dime between a candidate who's top 45% and bottom 45%.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:24 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
No13baby wrote:Have firms really not figured this out after however many years of interviewing Penn students?

Like I said, they know around where everything is, but because the actual numbers are a closely-kept secret, they can't nickel-and-dime between a candidate who's top 45% and bottom 45%.


Also, as we established in some Penn thread, a certain smattering of 8 grades could be some percentile one year and a quite different percentile the next.

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moonman157
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby moonman157 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:25 pm

Veyron wrote:
senorhosh wrote:How does not being ranked affect your job search?

My theory is that everyone around median will be treated the same, unless you have extremely high or low grades. Median at Penn has a large buffer and only those who really killed their grades (both ways) stick out. Hence, grades are less important and interviewing plays a bigger part. Can anyone qualify this?

Also, I know Penn's class is relatively small. What are the pros and cons of a smaller class (in terms of job hunting, grading, etc.)?
I also would think a smaller class allows for a smaller buffer in terms of grades (and "ranking"). True?

Thanks.


Your (first) theory is correct.


I actually didn't even know that this was the case. Do you consider this to be a pro or a con?

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No13baby
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby No13baby » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:23 pm

PennBull wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
No13baby wrote:Have firms really not figured this out after however many years of interviewing Penn students?

Like I said, they know around where everything is, but because the actual numbers are a closely-kept secret, they can't nickel-and-dime between a candidate who's top 45% and bottom 45%.


Also, as we established in some Penn thread, a certain smattering of 8 grades could be some percentile one year and a quite different percentile the next.

Huh, I thought it was just the administration sandbagging us. Good to know!

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Borg
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Borg » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:41 pm

Has the whole Sandusky thing been a major distraction? I would imagine it affected the undergrads more, but are you concerned about the law school's reputation just by the name association?

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sopranorleone
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:38 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby sopranorleone » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:47 pm

Borg wrote:Has the whole Sandusky thing been a major distraction? I would imagine it affected the undergrads more, but are you concerned about the law school's reputation just by the name association?


Please tell me this is a joke. This is why our bookstore sells shirts that say, "NOT Penn State"

Edit: long-time lurker coming out of the woodwork to respond

HeavenWood
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:37 am

Borg wrote:Has the whole Sandusky thing been a major distraction? I would imagine it affected the undergrads more, but are you concerned about the law school's reputation just by the name association?

132

Don Draper Jr.
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Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:07 pm

Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Don Draper Jr. » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:19 pm

Hey guys,

I decided to post this here since it seems like one of the most active threads for penn students.

I am a 1L right now and the school I go to uses Robinson's Criminal Law Casebook. If any of you have seen this book you would know how unconventional it is when compared to other casebooks.

I was wondering if maybe one of you could provide me with some of the outlines (even just 1) based on this casebook through email or pm. Honestly, it would be a lifesaver in comfort alone (since I'm still making my own but there really aren't any available to me because the 2ls who did good are not allowed to give the outlines in this class). My professor is all over the place with this book and even dislikes it himself.

Feel free to pm to see if I'm legit and I'll be happy to give the details about where I go to see if I can provide you guys with anything helpful! (I know this is msg is vague, but I tried to kepp anonymity because my peers all over this website).

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Veyron
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Veyron » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:56 pm

No13baby wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
Veyron wrote:
senorhosh wrote:How does not being ranked affect your job search?

My theory is that everyone around median will be treated the same, unless you have extremely high or low grades. Median at Penn has a large buffer and only those who really killed their grades (both ways) stick out. Hence, grades are less important and interviewing plays a bigger part. Can anyone qualify this?

Also, I know Penn's class is relatively small. What are the pros and cons of a smaller class (in terms of job hunting, grading, etc.)?
I also would think a smaller class allows for a smaller buffer in terms of grades (and "ranking"). True?

Thanks.


Your (first) theory is correct.

This. OCI employers obviously know median is somewhere around a 3.3, and they can guess that top 1/3 and top 10% are respectively around 3.5 and 3.7. But because they don't know with certainty, it forces them to evaluate candidates in bands, as opposed to a point-by-point order.


Have firms really not figured this out after however many years of interviewing Penn students?


You would be shocked at how small the differences are between the transcripts of students with drastically different "ranks."

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Rahviveh
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:09 pm

Assuming ties, whats it like trying to get into CA biglaw (particularly LA/OC) from Penn?

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Sheffield
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Sheffield » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:27 pm

Not sure about all the others, but they certainly got Penn right!

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-50-best-law-schools-in-america-2012-9?op=1

r6_philly
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby r6_philly » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:28 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:Assuming ties, whats it like trying to get into CA biglaw (particularly LA/OC) from Penn?


Of course it depends on the individual, It doesn't seem very hard comparatively. I think DC was much harder this year. But it really changes from year to year because hiring is based on firm needs and even in a market like LA it fluctuates quite a bit. Most people I talked to that had ties and focused on LA market got something. May not be your top choice but landing something.

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Veyron
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Veyron » Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:36 pm

r6_philly wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:Assuming ties, whats it like trying to get into CA biglaw (particularly LA/OC) from Penn?


Of course it depends on the individual, It doesn't seem very hard comparatively. I think DC was much harder this year. But it really changes from year to year because hiring is based on firm needs and even in a market like LA it fluctuates quite a bit. Most people I talked to that had ties and focused on LA market got something. May not be your top choice but landing something.


Our year it was also DC > LA > NYC as far as degree of difficulty. LA is actually a much smaller legal market than its size would indicate. I would be surprised if LA proper had more Biglaw SA slots than Philadelphia. However, there are a lot of firms in OC that people who want LA also bid on.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:13 am

Veyron wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:Assuming ties, whats it like trying to get into CA biglaw (particularly LA/OC) from Penn?


Of course it depends on the individual, It doesn't seem very hard comparatively. I think DC was much harder this year. But it really changes from year to year because hiring is based on firm needs and even in a market like LA it fluctuates quite a bit. Most people I talked to that had ties and focused on LA market got something. May not be your top choice but landing something.


Our year it was also DC > LA > NYC as far as degree of difficulty. LA is actually a much smaller legal market than its size would indicate. I would be surprised if LA proper had more Biglaw SA slots than Philadelphia. However, there are a lot of firms in OC that people who want LA also bid on.


I have some friends that had to "settle" for other California markets than their target. No one market is big enough to hold its own, but collectively, LA/SF/SD/OC/PA is very attainable for those who try to go out west.

jcojd
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby jcojd » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:03 pm

masked kavana wrote:
Dato wrote:If anyone has questions about Public Interest at Penn, let me know. There are lots of amazing opportunities and TPIC is doing great work.


Hey, I'm hoping to go the PI route. Was wondering if you could elaborate a bit on the opportunities and how the job situation is looking.

Also, are there a lot of PI oriented people at Penn?

Thanks for the info!!


As much as I love Penn, I would actually say that we are one of the worst schools for PI in the T10 - though certainly the folks in the public interest office (TPIC) do try their best. A lot of 2Ls and 3Ls (and graduates of '11 and '12) that I know who came in wanting PI eventually went the corporate route - many just because it was easier to find a good corporate job and unemployment seems daunting. Good PI jobs are hard to come by and our career services really isn't much help unless you're gunning for NYC biglaw (in which case they do know what they're doing - sort of). Our TollRAP is pretty dismal, and generally there just aren't that many PI oriented opportunities for students compared to schools like Berkeley and NYU. Even the course offerings are indicative of this.

Unless you get a Toll scholarship, I would highly recommend going elsewhere if you get in (to an equally good school elsewhere). The corporate rep of Penn exists for a reason, regardless of how many pro bono opportunities exist.

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Veyron
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Veyron » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:05 pm

jcojd wrote:
masked kavana wrote:
Dato wrote:If anyone has questions about Public Interest at Penn, let me know. There are lots of amazing opportunities and TPIC is doing great work.


Hey, I'm hoping to go the PI route. Was wondering if you could elaborate a bit on the opportunities and how the job situation is looking.

Also, are there a lot of PI oriented people at Penn?

Thanks for the info!!


As much as I love Penn, I would actually say that we are one of the worst schools for PI in the T10 - though certainly the folks in the public interest office (TPIC) do try their best. A lot of 2Ls and 3Ls (and graduates of '11 and '12) that I know who came in wanting PI eventually went the corporate route - many just because it was easier to find a good corporate job and unemployment seems daunting. Good PI jobs are hard to come by and our career services really isn't much help unless you're gunning for NYC biglaw (in which case they do know what they're doing - sort of). Our TollRAP is pretty dismal, and generally there just aren't that many PI oriented opportunities for students compared to schools like Berkeley and NYU. Even the course offerings are indicative of this.

Unless you get a Toll scholarship, I would highly recommend going elsewhere if you get in (to an equally good school elsewhere). The corporate rep of Penn exists for a reason, regardless of how many pro bono opportunities exist.


I always thought that TollRap was pretty good actually. I like how its more flexible than at other schools.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Rahviveh » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:30 pm

I was reading about LRW in the Choosing a Law School forum - is Penn still ungraded?

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:33 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:I was reading about LRW in the Choosing a Law School forum - is Penn still ungraded?


It'll be graded next year

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Rahviveh
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Rahviveh » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:36 pm

PennBull wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:I was reading about LRW in the Choosing a Law School forum - is Penn still ungraded?


It'll be graded next year


Thanks!

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moonman157
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby moonman157 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:42 pm

PennBull wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:I was reading about LRW in the Choosing a Law School forum - is Penn still ungraded?


It'll be graded next year


This is unfortunate, correct?

run26.2
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby run26.2 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:05 pm

moonman157 wrote:
PennBull wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:I was reading about LRW in the Choosing a Law School forum - is Penn still ungraded?


It'll be graded next year


This is unfortunate, correct?

I would say no. Legal writing is a very important skill. A grade incentivizes you to work harder at developing the skill.




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