Penn Students Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
r6_philly
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby r6_philly » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:30 am

No13baby wrote:Where's the best place to get cheap textbooks? Amazon? Some other website? The EJF store, wherever and whenever it is?


EJF book sale had every book you needed last year, if you don't mind used.

senorhosh
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby senorhosh » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:32 am

Sorry if these questions are repeats. Haven't found these in the search function yet for this thread.

1. Chances NON-ED with 3.0, 176 (Difficult major though)?
How about first or second round ED?
2. Penn students, now that you have a greater understanding, would you pay sticker (if would want Biglaw)? If you already do, would you recommend it? (multiple answers from multiple users would be great, thanks)


Thanks

HeavenWood
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:28 am

senorhosh wrote:Sorry if these questions are repeats. Haven't found these in the search function yet for this thread.

1. Chances NON-ED with 3.0, 176 (Difficult major though)?
How about first or second round ED?
2. Penn students, now that you have a greater understanding, would you pay sticker (if would want Biglaw)? If you already do, would you recommend it? (multiple answers from multiple users would be great, thanks)


Thanks

1a) Practically nil.
1b) The second-round ED option is new for this cycle, but I would think you would have a good shot at either round.
2) As someone who is paying sticker, my feelings on this are a little mixed (ask me again when LOLci is done and hopefully at least one of my callbacks turns into some kind of offer). For a splitter such as yourself, you'll be looking at very little (if any) scholly money throughout the T14, so the question you need to ask yourself is whether a 2/3-ish shot at big law is worth full freight compared to a full ride at a good regional school where your big law chances will range in the 10-25% ballpark, or alternatively, a super-regional/semi-national school where the cost of attendance and job prospects fall somewhere in between the two. There's no one right answer, and what is best for you will largely depend on how big law-or-bust you are.

Just
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Just » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:06 am

About how many students does Penn admit straight from China each year?

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Veyron
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Veyron » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:31 am

Just wrote:About how many students does Penn admit straight from China each year?



J.D.? Probably nil or in the low single digits.

L.L.M? Several

Just
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Just » Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:57 pm

Veyron wrote:
Just wrote:About how many students does Penn admit straight from China each year?



J.D.? Probably nil or in the low single digits.

L.L.M? Several

Then I shouldn't ED to Penn? I have a 170, it's at the 25th of NYU, which make NYU seems a long shot.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:11 pm

Just wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Just wrote:About how many students does Penn admit straight from China each year?



J.D.? Probably nil or in the low single digits.

L.L.M? Several

Then I shouldn't ED to Penn? I have a 170, it's at the 25th of NYU, which make NYU seems a long shot.


If you're asking us if Penn has a quota for how many international students they let in, they don't have one. If they think you're qualified, they'll admit you. There just aren't a lot of international students who go straight for a J.D., so we don't have a lot of them.

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Veyron
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Veyron » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:11 pm

PennBull wrote:
Just wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Just wrote:About how many students does Penn admit straight from China each year?



J.D.? Probably nil or in the low single digits.

L.L.M? Several

Then I shouldn't ED to Penn? I have a 170, it's at the 25th of NYU, which make NYU seems a long shot.


If you're asking us if Penn has a quota for how many international students they let in, they don't have one. If they think you're qualified, they'll admit you. There just aren't a lot of international students who go straight for a J.D., so we don't have a lot of them.


Right, I think it has more to do with many internationals (a) not speaking English at the required level and (b) coming from countries where law is an undergraduate or at least not a doctoral level degree.

Basically, if you have an undergraduate degree, speak English as well as an American, and have permission to work in this country as well as solid undergraduate performance, I imagine that you'd have a shot ED.

Just
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Just » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:30 pm

I don't have permission to work in the country.
Because Penn recruits fewer these students than NYU,I'm not sure if it's harder to get in by Ed Penn, even though the LSAT median is lower.Just trying to decide where to ed.

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:54 pm

Just wrote:I don't have permission to work in the country.
Because Penn recruits fewer these students than NYU,I'm not sure if it's harder to get in by Ed Penn, even though the LSAT median is lower.Just trying to decide where to ed.


Call admissions for both schools, maybe a few others, and ask. You'd be surprised how candid they are.

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Dato
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Dato » Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:37 pm

If anyone has questions about Public Interest at Penn, let me know. There are lots of amazing opportunities and TPIC is doing great work.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:36 pm

How is OCI going? Lots of pessimism right now in the legal employment forum

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PennBull
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby PennBull » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:25 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:How is OCI going? Lots of pessimism right now in the legal employment forum


Right now it's hard to tell. Some people are happy, some people aren't. I think we can't really determine it until November.

HeavenWood
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:54 pm

PennBull wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:How is OCI going? Lots of pessimism right now in the legal employment forum


Right now it's hard to tell. Some people are happy, some people aren't. I think we can't really determine it until November.

Class sizes have been cut significantly in a lot of secondary markets. NYC (Penn's bread and butter) has been mostly stable, with some modest cutbacks/expansions.

bobbyflayed
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby bobbyflayed » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:09 pm

Are there any international offices of big firms interviewing at OCI?

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Sheffield
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Sheffield » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:18 am

HeavenWood wrote:
PennBull wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:How is OCI going? Lots of pessimism right now in the legal employment forum


Right now it's hard to tell. Some people are happy, some people aren't. I think we can't really determine it until November.

Class sizes have been cut significantly in a lot of secondary markets. NYC (Penn's bread and butter) has been mostly stable, with some modest cutbacks/expansions.

In checking with cohorts (& TLS threads), Philly mid-law SA classes are small but their offer rate is impressive. I understand Philly BL firms also have an impressive offer rate. The primary difference between the two (mid v. bl) is roughly $25K a year.

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Veyron
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Veyron » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:43 am

bobbyflayed wrote:Are there any international offices of big firms interviewing at OCI?


Yes.

HeavenWood
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:46 pm

Sheffield wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
PennBull wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:How is OCI going? Lots of pessimism right now in the legal employment forum


Right now it's hard to tell. Some people are happy, some people aren't. I think we can't really determine it until November.

Class sizes have been cut significantly in a lot of secondary markets. NYC (Penn's bread and butter) has been mostly stable, with some modest cutbacks/expansions.

In checking with cohorts (& TLS threads), Philly mid-law SA classes are small but their offer rate is impressive. I understand Philly BL firms also have an impressive offer rate. The primary difference between the two (mid v. bl) is roughly $25K a year.

I'm not quibbling with that. I'm only saying that SA hiring is significantly down this year, probably so these firms can keep their "impressive" offer rates (which are not universally impressive, by the way). A lot of big firms (Morgan, Pepper, Duane, etc.) are aiming to take <10 SAs.

As for pay, Philly biglaw in general has a somewhat wide distribution ($125k-145k). Mid-law (I assume you're excluding boutiques like Conrad O'Brien and Woodcock Washburn) is generally in the $100k-125k range.

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Sheffield
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Sheffield » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:29 pm

HeavenWood wrote:As for pay, Philly biglaw in general has a somewhat wide distribution ($125k-145k). Mid-law (I assume you're excluding boutiques like Conrad O'Brien and Woodcock Washburn) is generally in the $100k-125k range.

I am still not up to speed on differentiating mid-law from boutiques. Is it the number of attorneys? If the firm has 30-40 attorneys and pays around $120K, is it a boutique or is the term guided by the types of legal areas they pursue/specialize in?

Another way to ask. If you work for a firm with 90 attorneys and I work at a firm with 35 attorneys, are you in mid-law and I am at a boutique, even if our compensation is identical.

HeavenWood
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:32 pm

Sheffield wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:As for pay, Philly biglaw in general has a somewhat wide distribution ($125k-145k). Mid-law (I assume you're excluding boutiques like Conrad O'Brien and Woodcock Washburn) is generally in the $100k-125k range.

I am still not up to speed on differentiating the term between mid-law from boutiques. Is it the number of attorneys? If the firm has 30-40 attorneys and pays around $120K, is it a boutique or is the term guided by the types of legal areas they pursue/specialize in?

Another way to ask. If you work for a firm with 90 attorneys and I work at a firm with 35 attorneys, are you in mid-law and I am at a boutique, even if our compensation is identical.

Mid-laws are at least nominally "full-service," and generally (though certainly not always) bigger than boutiques. But there are also some huge boutiques like Boies or Knobbe that are bigger than some "big law" firms.

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Sheffield
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Sheffield » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:51 pm

HeavenWood wrote:Mid-laws are at least nominally "full-service," and generally (though certainly not always) bigger than boutiques. But there are also some huge boutiques like Boies or Knobbe that are bigger than some "big law" firms.

You nailed that! I just checked on that little boutique firm, Boies. . . 245 lawyers, Revenue Per Lawyer: $1,245,000. Partners receive double.

HeavenWood
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby HeavenWood » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:09 pm

Sheffield wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Mid-laws are at least nominally "full-service," and generally (though certainly not always) bigger than boutiques. But there are also some huge boutiques like Boies or Knobbe that are bigger than some "big law" firms.

You nailed that! I just checked on that little boutique firm, Boies. . . 245 lawyers, Revenue Per Lawyer: $1,245,000. Partners receive double.

There you go; don't obsess over labels and just focus on what particular firms are right for you. Most likely, your search won't end up being restricted to any one "class" of firm.

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Sheffield
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Sheffield » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:17 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
Sheffield wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Mid-laws are at least nominally "full-service," and generally (though certainly not always) bigger than boutiques. But there are also some huge boutiques like Boies or Knobbe that are bigger than some "big law" firms.

You nailed that! I just checked on that little boutique firm, Boies. . . 245 lawyers, Revenue Per Lawyer: $1,245,000. Partners receive double.

There you go; don't obsess over labels and just focus on what particular firms are right for you. Most likely, your search won't end up being restricted to any one "class" of firm.

I concure. I am done checking. Class is no longer a consideration. I want this firm. I can sense it is right for me! :)

masked kavana
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby masked kavana » Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:26 pm

Dato wrote:If anyone has questions about Public Interest at Penn, let me know. There are lots of amazing opportunities and TPIC is doing great work.


Hey, I'm hoping to go the PI route. Was wondering if you could elaborate a bit on the opportunities and how the job situation is looking.

Also, are there a lot of PI oriented people at Penn?

Thanks for the info!!

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Dato
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Re: Penn Students Taking Questions

Postby Dato » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:07 am

masked kavana wrote:
Dato wrote:If anyone has questions about Public Interest at Penn, let me know. There are lots of amazing opportunities and TPIC is doing great work.


Hey, I'm hoping to go the PI route. Was wondering if you could elaborate a bit on the opportunities and how the job situation is looking.

Also, are there a lot of PI oriented people at Penn?

Thanks for the info!!


Hi! The PI job situation seems good. I think it would be hard for it not to be at a school of this caliber. All the 3L's I've talked to at TPIC seem to have stuff in the works. The whole job search process for PI is by nature different from BigLaw because the latter is streamlined vis-a-vis OCI. The government, non-profits, and PI lit firms interview at different times, so this streamlining isn't possible. That just means the student usually initiates contact.

Opportunities abound at Penn for PI stuff. There are a ton of clinics and projects. There's work with the ACLU on illegal stop and frisks, the Immigrant Rights Project with refugees on asylum, the Criminal Record Expungement Project, the Custody and Support Assistance Clinic... the list goes on and on and on and on. Given the corporate rep that I had heard for Penn, I was honestly a bit weary coming in with a PI mindset. My weariness was unfounded. While I'm sure that most of my classmates will end up taking the corporate route, there is a sizable minority of folks who are PI nerds like me. And the corporate folks aren't "corporate-y" if that makes any sense. People are so down to earth. Penn does a lot to promote public service - there are symposia, trainings, and group meetings (with tons of free food) literally every day on campus. There are so many awesome things to get involved with it can be frustrating to have to choose sometimes -- last Wednesday I had literally five events in my calendar from 12-1:30, all of which I wanted to attend, and three of which were serving Greek Lady (amazing food).




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